Window Hanging Again - heritage railway enthusiast says its ok

[Titfield]

Absolute Madness as Heritage Rail enthusiast says it is ok!

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Quote "I know what I am doing so I can be safe".

Source: Facebook posting by Andy Miller

 

[ainsworth74]

I mean, it is okay as long as your careful about it. Thing is people were being idiots and therefore got themselves killed and some poor sods had to clean up after them. I can see why it was banned on Network Rail and why it's discouraged elsewhere. Makes total sense. But I'm not sure I see why what is said in that video is "absolute madness"? I spent a very enjoyable sunny summer evening window hanging from an HST between Edinburgh and Inverness once, one of my favourite railway memories. Or blasting along the Dawlish Sea Wall with a head out the window. Or even just the run into Darlington station from the south on an HST with you head out the window! Zero risk behaviour? No, of course not. "Absolute madness"? Equally no.

 

[Titfield]

I believe it to be "absolute madness" because of (a) the personal risk - there is no guarantee that a structure or a tree branch has not "fallen" or "moved" consequently decapitating someone with their head out of the window (b) the risk to the very organisations and past time we profess to care deeply about.

See Simon Browns accident https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-49016151

If this happened on a heritage railway there is a strong possibility that it could cause the railway to cease operations because (a) they would become uninsurable or the premium would become unaffordable (b) the Trustees or Directors could face a corporate manslaughter charge (c) volunteers would not wish to place themselves at personal risk of being held legally responsible (d) the adverse publicity would adversely impact passenger numbers.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I can't access the video and don't know how old this guy is but when I was a kid, I used to hang my head out the window - even at speeds of 90mph+ It was thrilling and exciting back then. But I always made sure I faced the direction of travel so I could see oncoming bridges/trains etc. In the days of slam door stock and on railtours, hanging heads out of the window was the "done thing" back then.

But we have to be more careful these days...

 

[Titfield]

I can't access the video and don't know how old this guy is but when I was a kid, I used to hang my head out the window - even at speeds of 90mph+ It was thrilling and exciting back then. But I always made sure I faced the direction of travel so I could see oncoming bridges/trains etc. In the days of slam door stock and on railtours, hanging heads out of the window was the "done thing" back then.

But we have to be more careful these days...

The guy is in his 40s.

 

[Iskra]

I believe it to be "absolute madness" because of (a) the personal risk - there is no guarantee that a structure or a tree branch has not "fallen" or "moved" consequently decapitating someone with their head out of the window (b) the risk to the very organisations and past time we profess to care deeply about.

See Simon Browns accident https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-49016151

If this happened on a heritage railway there is a strong possibility that it could cause the railway to cease operations because (a) they would become uninsurable or the premium would become unaffordable (b) the Trustees or Directors could face a corporate manslaughter charge (c) volunteers would not wish to place themselves at personal risk of being held legally responsible (d) the adverse publicity would adversely impact passenger numbers.

It’s perfectly safe, providing you keep a vigilant look out ahead and listen for any sounds of vegetation stiking the locomotive ahead of you.

I spent a lot of very enjoyable time in the 90’s/00’s doing it on HST’s, 47’s, 37’s and the WCML AC electrics and I survived unscathed. I’m sure that many more on here did similar.

However, I can fully understand why it is now banned on the national network. I do wish those incidents that led to the ban never happened, but we are where we are.

 

[ainsworth74]

I believe it to be "absolute madness" because of (a) the personal risk - there is no guarantee that a structure or a tree branch has not "fallen" or "moved" consequently decapitating someone with their head out of the window (b) the risk to the very organisations and past time we profess to care deeply about.

See Simon Browns accident https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-49016151

(a) I don't dispute there isn't risk, of course there is, but it seems manageable to me with some personal responsibility. My head remains firmly attached because I only ever did it in daylight and paid attention to what was coming down the track (and if you couldn't see it you retreated back inside!).

(b) I suppose so but GTR only got fined due to improper signage and a failure to carry out a proper risk assessment. If they'd had a clear sign saying not to lean out the window it's unlikely they'd have been prosecuted and found guilty. Every window I've seen since has had clear signage.

If this happened on a heritage railway there is a strong possibility that it could cause the railway to cease operations because (a) they would become uninsurable or the premium would become unaffordable (b) the Trustees or Directors could face a corporate manslaughter charge (c) volunteers would not wish to place themselves at personal risk of being held legally responsible (d) the adverse publicity would adversely impact passenger numbers.

Assuming the railway had an appropriate risk assessment in place and the relevant identified mitigations were in place they shouldn't face any particular sanction though obviously it would be uncomfortable period of time for them. That being said it seems far riskier to be inside a heritage train sometimes than hanging from a window!

Summary​

At around 13:15 hrs on Thursday 22 June 2017, a mother and her three-year-old child were travelling on a South Devon Railway train from Totnes (Riverside) to Buckfastleigh. Shortly after leaving Staverton station, while the train was travelling at about 20 mph (32 km/h), the child left his seat and went towards a toilet on the train, followed by his mother walking a short distance behind.

The child entered the toilet, and as the door opened and the child stepped through it, he fell forward because the floor was missing in the compartment he had entered. A more serious accident was only prevented by the quick reaction of the mother who grabbed the child’s arm and prevented him falling through the opening and onto the track below. The child suffered minor bruising, and both mother and child were shocked. The accident was reported immediately to the railway company, but the RAIB was not advised of what had happened until 25 June 2017.

Report 02/2018: Child nearly falling through a missing toilet floor, South Devon Railway

Child nearly falling through a missing toilet floor, South Devon Railway, 22 June 2017.

www.gov.uk

Seems a far more serious incident than someone sticking their head out the window at 20mph...

Unwise? Sure if you're being stupid about it. Absolute madness? Not convinced.

 

[bluegoblin7]

If this happened on a heritage railway there is a strong possibility that it could cause the railway to cease operations because (a) they would become uninsurable or the premium would become unaffordable (b) the Trustees or Directors could face a corporate manslaughter charge (c) volunteers would not wish to place themselves at personal risk of being held legally responsible (d) the adverse publicity would adversely impact passenger numbers.

Absolutely. The video is at best misjudged and at worst totally irresponsible.

Whilst it can’t be denied that - generally - heritage railways maintain a better kinematic envelope than the mainline, that doesn’t make ‘window hanging’ safe - or even less unsafe, imo.

This is something that the ORR are - rightly - paying very keen attention to, along with the heritage sector as a whole following several high profile incidents (there are plenty more) in recent years. It is something that is ‘tolerated’ in the heritage sector rather than expressly allowed, and all it takes is one injury and that tolerance will disappear. It is - unfortunately - almost impossible to mitigate the risk of serious injury or death from window hanging (as it extends far beyond simply being bashed) and as heritage lines are required to have a Safety Management System and comply fully* with the Rail and Other Guided Transport Systems (Safety) Regulations 2006 (ROGS) it is very easy to shut down railways not appropriately dealing with the risk - or indeed actively promoting window hanging - by way of prohibition notices. I know for a fact that at least two organisations have had formal warnings (I won’t say who or where) from the ORR about allowing body parts to protrude outside of vehicles.

If I was one of the lines mentioned I’d be asking the person to remove the video ASAP for my own protection, but sadly many faux influencers don’t really have a clue about either what they’re talking about or the consequences of their actions.

 

[Richard Scott]

Whilst hanging out of a window isn't without risk as others have said, it's a pleasurable experience and, agreed, you do have to be careful. Would I visit a heritage railway where this was banned, absolutely not.
Why is this country so risk averse? You eat solid food, you may choke and die so stick to liquids, do you travel, vehicle may crash and you die, you live in a house so you may fall down the stairs and die. Best stop travelling and wrap yourself up in cotton wool in a bungalow drinking liquids only. Enjoy!
Life has risks, it's about being sensible not nanny state telling us it's all too dangerous so we should ban it.
I'm willing to bet more people have died in accidents with electric scooters that go whizzing around than ever have sticking their head out of a train window. We haven't banned these, though?

 

[AlterEgo]

Window hanging is one of life's pleasures. In Switzerland, on the Gotthard Panorama Express, one is actually encouraged to window hang; there is a photography car with opening windows for this purpose, and hanging a little out of the window in full view of the staff is absolutely fine. As @ainsworth74 says, do it in daylight.

Also wind your head in during tunnels, never windowhang on the outside of a curve, never put more than your head out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It may not be perfectly safe but nor is motorcycling or rock climbing. It probably has no place on the mainline but on heritage lines at 25mph where they have checked clearances I think there are worse things to do.

 

[cambsy]

I have window hung in the good old day behind 37’s-20’s-Deltic-31’s-56’s etc, on railtours and service trains. Was careful where hung out windows, which mainly on opposite track side, keeping eyes out for trains coming towards us, and used goggles etc to protect eyes, and done up to 125mph on HST’s.

It was managing risk and using common sense, just a shame cant do anymore when chance arrives to, on rail tours etc.

 

[43096]

I have window hung in the good old day behind 37’s-20’s-Deltic-31’s-56’s etc, on railtours and service trains. Was careful where hung out windows, which mainly on opposite track side, keeping eyes out for trains coming towards us, and used goggles etc to protect eyes, and done up to 125mph on HST’s.

It was managing risk and using common sense, just a shame cant do anymore when chance arrives to, on rail tours etc.

You can thank that enthusiast on the Gatwick Express and the drunk lady on Great Western for ending that. They paid a much heavier price than you not being able to stick your head out of the window, though.

 

[yorksrob]

Absolutely. The video is at best misjudged and at worst totally irresponsible.

Whilst it can’t be denied that - generally - heritage railways maintain a better kinematic envelope than the mainline, that doesn’t make ‘window hanging’ safe - or even less unsafe, imo.

This is something that the ORR are - rightly - paying very keen attention to, along with the heritage sector as a whole following several high profile incidents (there are plenty more) in recent years. It is something that is ‘tolerated’ in the heritage sector rather than expressly allowed, and all it takes is one injury and that tolerance will disappear. It is - unfortunately - almost impossible to mitigate the risk of serious injury or death from window hanging (as it extends far beyond simply being bashed) and as heritage lines are required to have a Safety Management System and comply fully* with the Rail and Other Guided Transport Systems (Safety) Regulations 2006 (ROGS) it is very easy to shut down railways not appropriately dealing with the risk - or indeed actively promoting window hanging - by way of prohibition notices. I know for a fact that at least two organisations have had formal warnings (I won’t say who or where) from the ORR about allowing body parts to protrude outside of vehicles.

If I was one of the lines mentioned I’d be asking the person to remove the video ASAP for my own protection, but sadly many faux influencers don’t really have a clue about either what they’re talking about or the consequences of their actions.

I can understand why its banned - and have never engaged in the practice myself.

However ORR ought to have better things to do than shutting down preserved railways over the actions of misguided individuals.

 

[Gooner18]

IMO opinion it’s manageable, I’ve done it and for me it’s part of the experience. As said common sense approach , face direction of travel and always be aware of surroundings and what’s approaching! Although even this does not stop the annoying small lumps of unburnt coal going in my eyes

 

[43096]

IMO opinion it’s manageable, I’ve done it and for me it’s part of the experience. As said common sense approach , face direction of travel and always be aware of surroundings and what’s approaching! Although even this does not stop the annoying small lumps of unburnt coal going in my eyes

Ah yes, common sense. That thing everybody thinks they have. But you can’t legislate on the basis of common sense as everyone’s idea of what it is is different.

 

[LMS 4F]

Don’t do it with your hat on. I did when I was about 12 and lost my school cap which didn’t amuse my mother one bit.

 

[Belperpete]

As a volunteer on a preserved railway, I have lost count of the number of enthusiasts who have put themselves in real danger, such as taking photos in a place where there is clearly no position of safety as a train approaches, and invariably the response is along the lines of "I know what I am doing" when they clearly don't. And enthusiast galas seem to bring out a high number of such idiots.

The other issue is that someone seeing someone else doing something, and authority turning a blind eye will assume that it is okay for them to do so too. You may know what you are doing, but the person following your example may not. And if they come to harm, it will be those who have turned a blind eye who will be in trouble.

Back in the day, most people who travelled by train were aware of the dangers involved in leaning out of drop light windows. Nowadays most people don't even know how to close one.

 

[Titfield]

I am sure there are many hundreds of ambulance chasing lawyers who will help your widow claim £Ms in compensation from your beloved heritage railway which will be forced into bankruptcy and closure.

The points @Belperpete makes are very valid. As a heritage railway volunteer myself I am astounded at the level of risk some "enthusiasts" take particularly when trying to get "that shot".

 

[12C]

It doesn’t seem to be absolutely fine to window hang on all preserved lines, I’ve seen people very sternly told off for leaning out at the East Lancs and KWVR recently, maybe they are getting a bit of flak from the ORR over this too.

The guy in the video keeps popping up on my Facebook feed and does appear to do some rather stupid stuff sometimes, talking to the camera as he is leaning right out while facing backwards. I enjoy having a look out of a droplight myself but the main thing to apply is common sense, and keep aware of any hazards. As others have said one incident and there will be no more blind eyes turned.

 

[steamybrian]

"As a volunteer on a preserved railway, I have lost count of the number of enthusiasts who have put themselves in real danger, such as taking photos in a place where there is clearly no position of safety as a train approaches, and invariably the response is along the lines of "I know what I am doing" when they clearly don't. And enthusiast galas seem to bring out a high number of such idiots."

"I am sure there are many hundreds of ambulance chasing lawyers who will help your widow claim £Ms in compensation from your beloved heritage railway which will be forced into bankruptcy and closure".

I fully agree with these and other comments. During my days on BR I saw many reports of people fatalliy injured by leaning out of the window particularly where I worked on the Southern Region where clearances were tight.
It only needs one person to be seriously hurt to cause the railway to be closed for the rest of the day and for days following whilst an investigation is carried out. My thoughts also for the friends and families.

 

[bramling]

Absolutely. The video is at best misjudged and at worst totally irresponsible.

Whilst it can’t be denied that - generally - heritage railways maintain a better kinematic envelope than the mainline, that doesn’t make ‘window hanging’ safe - or even less unsafe, imo.

This is something that the ORR are - rightly - paying very keen attention to, along with the heritage sector as a whole following several high profile incidents (there are plenty more) in recent years. It is something that is ‘tolerated’ in the heritage sector rather than expressly allowed, and all it takes is one injury and that tolerance will disappear. It is - unfortunately - almost impossible to mitigate the risk of serious injury or death from window hanging (as it extends far beyond simply being bashed) and as heritage lines are required to have a Safety Management System and comply fully* with the Rail and Other Guided Transport Systems (Safety) Regulations 2006 (ROGS) it is very easy to shut down railways not appropriately dealing with the risk - or indeed actively promoting window hanging - by way of prohibition notices. I know for a fact that at least two organisations have had formal warnings (I won’t say who or where) from the ORR about allowing body parts to protrude outside of vehicles.

If I was one of the lines mentioned I’d be asking the person to remove the video ASAP for my own protection, but sadly many faux influencers don’t really have a clue about either what they’re talking about or the consequences of their actions.

It’s no more risky then plenty of other activities which people freely partake in, and which are considered perfectly normal and acceptable. I really wish we didn’t have this whole attitude of close things down off the back of the very occasional mishap. If we applied this rationale to the whole of society we’d be left living extremely sad and miserable lives, which it seems is how some people want life to go.

That said, I don’t understand why some enthusiasts wish to flail out of windows and generally make fools of themselves, there’s absolutely no need for that.

 

[Titfield]

It’s no more risky then plenty of other activities which people freely partake in, and which are considered perfectly normal and acceptable. I really wish we didn’t have this whole attitude of close things down off the back of the very occasional mishap. If we applied this rationale to the whole of society we’d be left living extremely sad and miserable lives, which it seems is how some people want life to go.

It isnt the occasional mishap that is the issue but that the legal regime holds the transport operator to account (liable) and that those injured (or at least the relatives of those injured or deceased) will pursue the operator for compensation.

 

[Falcon1200]

But you can’t legislate on the basis of common sense as everyone’s idea of what it is is different.

Indeed, and while 'we', ie railway enthusiasts, might have enough sense and knowledge not to put ourselves in danger, that doesn't mean that somebody else emulating such behaviour will.

 

[Rail Quest]

One thing I've never understood about this debate is how guards and other volunteers fit into this. I spent a brief stint training as a guard on a heritage line last year and had to essentially window hang when my train was arriving/departing stations and approaching signals, level crossings and token exchange points (this isn't an exhaustive list). Other volunteers, such as Traveling Ticket Inspectors did the same at stations to assist the guard.

Now this raises two possibilities, in my eyes:
1) If the ORR are unhappy with the risks incurred by window hanging, then the guards role will need to change to not feature this specific practice.
2) If the ORR were to rule that window hanging is safe if done in a certain manner, then perhaps it would make sense to outline guidance on this and make this available to heritage railways to enforce as they wish (that could include only guards can do it with training).

As a Diesel enthusiast, I enjoy window hanging but never did anything beyond head out and took precautions to reduce risks. I currently do not partake in this practice as all heritage lines I've visited recently are now actively discouraging it and I'm the kind of person who will follow such rules. However, this does unfortunately reduce my enjoyment of heritage lines and I will personally choose to visit them less if such rules remained in place. If a not so insignificant number of enthusiasts are in the same boat, then I would argue it's in the best interests of both the ORR and the heritage lines to try and work out a solution to this rather than placing an outright ban.

 

[xotGD]

Guidance at the East Lancs last week:

Heads out, OK. Arms and bodies out, no.

Seems a sensible compromise.

 

[DJ_K666]

A lot of mk1 coaches in use, certainly on the Southern Region EMUs at the end of their main line careers, had bars across the windows to stop heads being poked out. You could reach out to open the door at stations and you could 'kind of' look ahead up the line but you would be within the envelope due to the bars.

 

[Krokodil]

Every window I've seen since has had clear signage.

GWR got a rap on the knuckles too after Bathampton and tidied up their signage on HSTs. So there was a nice, clear full-width red sticker on the handle of every droplight.

Even so, someone I know who was a guard when the short sets were introduced (with slam doors to begin with) had to yank some idiot back in by his belt, he was leaning so far out. Behaviour like that is why a zero tolerance approach gets taken, spoiling it for those who are genuinely careful.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2025 ==

As a volunteer on a preserved railway, I have lost count of the number of enthusiasts who have put themselves in real danger, such as taking photos in a place where there is clearly no position of safety as a train approaches, and invariably the response is along the lines of "I know what I am doing" when they clearly don't.

Some volunteers take that attitude too. I remember a heritage railway director challenging a volunteer on why they weren't wearing eye protection while operating machine tools. "I've been doing this for forty years and always been fine..."

 

[Deepgreen]

Absolute Madness as Heritage Rail enthusiast says it is ok!

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Quote "I know what I am doing so I can be safe".

Source: Facebook posting by Andy Miller

A Bluebell Railway volunteer and enthusiast was beheaded by a signal post when window-hanging from a class 442 (guard's door) at Balham years ago. So those supposedly 'in the know' are far from immune.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2025 ==

It may not be perfectly safe but nor is motorcycling or rock climbing. It probably has no place on the mainline but on heritage lines at 25mph where they have checked clearances I think there are worse things to do.

Are preserved lines more or less likely to have "checked clearances" than NR?

 

[styles]

Are preserved lines more or less likely to have "checked clearances" than NR?

I suspect they're less likely to have long tunnels etc.

But more importantly they'll be operating at much lower line speeds than say a slam door HST on the Midland Mainline would've due to the infrastructure not being rated for higher speeds, and the stops often being so frequent as to make it not worthwhile getting up to full speed.