Windermere May 2016

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd have thought, as your location is very rural Cheshire, that you could get the chauffeur to take you to Warrington rather than Manchester Airport, where I believe the standard of First Class service offered by Virgin Trains is somewhat superior to that offered by TPE.

Wonderful...only one drawback. Unless Mr Branson has fitted his trains on the WCML with a cloaking device similar to that employed by the Romulan war fleet in StarTrek, I still have to see one of his trains in the station at Windermere....

 

[childwallblues]

I'd have thought, as your location is very rural Cheshire, that you could get the chauffeur to take you to Warrington rather than Manchester Airport, where I believe the standard of First Class service offered by Virgin Trains is somewhat superior to that offered by TPE.

A bit of an insult I think. I note that you do not disclose your location.

 

[Greybeard33]

Who in their infinite wisdom decided that there was not enough demand for day trippers from Manchester to Windermere on the remaining service provision (somewhere about 0930 from Manchester Airport) with the opportunity for the first class provision in the Class 185 units that my good lady wife and I have always used in the past.. There was the opportunity to visit the lake for a pleasure cruise or just to enjoy the shops and museums and from the bus stop outside the station, buses ran to Ambleside, etc.

Perhaps we will have to settle for visits to Grange-over-Sands and Ulverston instead in the future...

I think the issue is not "not enough demand", rather not enough trains. Windermere services are the latest to suffer the on-going fallout from Chiltern Railways' "poaching" of TPE's Class 170 fleet. From May, TPE is recalling two of the five Class 185 units it currently hires to Northern for the Windermere/Barrow/Blackpool services. So Northern has to substitute slower, standard class-only, Sprinters.

Perhaps you should direct your ire at Chiltern, and/or at Porterbrook Leasing, for accepting Chiltern's offer for the 170s, and at DfT, for allowing the deal to happen.

 

[Starmill]

The vast majority of First Class demand on TPE is because Standard is reminiscent of a London commuter operation.

Top-class nonsense, as I have explained to you before.

Actually, no it isn't, as you have more chance of a seat on a London commuter operation.

More rubbish. You may reserve a seat in either First or Standard on TP - how many 'London commuter operations' offer that? You will also be able to make a seat reservation on Northern Connect.

Once the new stock arrives with the corresponding capacity increase, will it really be so popular?

I do not see why not. First Class on TP has been a growing market recently. Advance First is widely available, it's significantly more comfortable with it's 2+1 seating and offers a complimentary catering service. You will note that not a one of these applies to "London commuter operations".

 

[childwallblues]

Top-class nonsense, as I have explained to you before.



More rubbish. You may reserve a seat in either First or Standard on TP - how many 'London commuter operations' offer that? You will also be able to make a seat reservation on Northern Connect.



I do not see why not. First Class on TP has been a growing market recently. Advance First is widely available, it's significantly more comfortable with it's 2+1 seating and offers a complimentary catering service. You will note that not a one of these applies to "London commuter operations".

Spot on, and First Advance is often no more than a couple of pounds.

 

[ScotTrains]

I think it's fair to assume the majority of 1st class passengers travelling to the lakes are leisure travellers. I would think the lake district tends to attract a higher percentage of people who usually travel 1st class, certainly for the size of Windermere 1st is well used on the line. I also think a lot of these passengers, including myself, would still try to travel 1st class even if the rest of the train was near empty. The demand for 1st class is there especially during holiday periods.

 

[snail]

Perhaps we will have to settle for visits to Grange-over-Sands and Ulverston instead in the future...

Aren't many of these services switching to 156s from May?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Top-class nonsense, as I have explained to you before.

So, it's a DMU essentially the same as a Class 350, or indeed *is* a Class 350. It's as overcrowded as any London commuter operation, far worse off-peak. The difference is?

More rubbish. You may reserve a seat in either First or Standard on TP - how many 'London commuter operations' offer that? You will also be able to make a seat reservation on Northern Connect.

I mostly travel walk-up, so seat reservations are not my concern. But even if I did reserve, the train being full and standing makes for an unpleasant travelling environment - just as unpleasant as said London commuter train.

I do not see why not. First Class on TP has been a growing market recently. Advance First is widely available, it's significantly more comfortable with it's 2+1 seating and offers a complimentary catering service. You will note that not a one of these applies to "London commuter operations".

I'll give you 2+1, though the ex-Thameslink 319s are also 2+1.

Catering, well, I'm not necessarily swayed by a coffee and a small snack box?

 

[PHILIPE]

Aren't many of these services switching to 156s from May?

The story is that Northern will use TPE 185s for these services, diagrams but not confirmed, at beginning of thread. They are timed as 100 mph so 156s unsuitable. I may be wrong, but there have been so many what may be best described as rumours, it will all come out ito the wash when the May Timetable starts. My guess is they will remain as 185s.

Here is the 185 link_-

www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=128479

 

[Greybeard33]

Aren't many of these services switching to 156s from May?

It will still be possible to get a Northern 185 from Manchester Airport direct to Grange/Ulverston at 09:25 on a Mon-Fri morning, arriving 11:28/11:42. For the return there will be a 185 at 17:37 Ulverston/17:52 Grange, but it will be necessary to change at Lancaster to the 18:27 TPE 350 from Edinburgh to Manchester Airport, arriving 19:45. First Class available on all three services.

For a First Class day trip to Windermere, it will be necessary to get the 09:00 TPE 350 from the Airport to Glasgow, changing at Oxenholme to a Northern 185 and arriving 10:50.
The earliest First return journey will depart 19:06 on a Northern 185, changing at Oxenholme to the 19:23 Virgin 390 from Glasgow to Euston, then changing again at Preston to the 20:09 Northern 185 to the Airport, arriving 21:20.

You pays your money and you takes your choice....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The story is that Northern will use TPE 185s for these services, diagrams but not confirmed, at beginning of thread. They are timed as 100 mph so 156s unsuitable. I may be wrong, but there have been so many what may be best described as rumours, it will all come out in the wash when the May Timetable starts. My guess is they will remain as 185s.

Journey planners say that First Class will not be available on the "middle shift" Windermere services (late morning to early evening), even though the diagram is timed for 100mph. First Class is available on the early morning and late evening services (different diagram).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could they be using 158s and accepting a little delay? The difference of 10mph isn't likely to cause many issues on that rather uncongested section of the WCML.

 

[PHILIPE]

Could they be using 158s and accepting a little delay? The difference of 10mph isn't likely to cause many issues on that rather uncongested section of the WCML.

Where are the 158s coming from ?

 

[Greybeard33]

Where are the 158s coming from ?

The paths on the WCML have been rearranged so that they will run just behind, instead of ahead of, a Virgin 390. So 75mph would fit. But then where are the 156s coming from?

 

[PHILIPE]

The paths on the WCML have been rearranged so that they will run just behind, instead of ahead of, a Virgin 390. So 75mph would fit. But then where are the 156s coming from?

75mph might fit but Timetables have to have to be robust, i.e. if timed for 100 mph must be worked by a train that can run at that speed.
I don't think that the 156s are coming from anywhere as a statement has been made that 4x185s will be used by Northern.

 

[Greybeard33]

75mph might fit but Timetables have to have to be robust, i.e. if timed for 100 mph must be worked by a train that can run at that speed.
I don't think that the 156s are coming from anywhere as a statement has been made that 4x185s will be used by Northern.

Except that, within the Timetable Period, Northern could request a Variation to the Working Timetable to change the timing loads so as to permit use of 75mph Sprinters. Which Network Rail could accept, since there would be no impact on other TOCs' services.

It might be that negotiations are still on-going to determine if Northern will get to use four or three 185s from May instead of the current five, or if there might be four initially, reducing to three at some point before December. Even if four throughout, more 156s will have to come from somewhere. As you said, we will have to wait and see.

 

[Bovverboy]

If anyone is around tomorrow (Sat 9/7) could they report what kind of dmu is operating the Windermere branch before 1000, between 1115 and 1315, and between 1515 and 1730? It's scheduled to be a Sprinter set.

Outside those hours it should be a 185.

From Monday onwards the M/F hours of Sprinter operation should be c.1115 to c.1830.