Windermere Branch

[Lampshade]

Well it doesn't look like Barrow is going to be electrified either, so send the Scotland services via Wigan and revert the rest of TPE North West to the pre-2007 pattern. Sorted.

 

[Nym]

Exactly what I was thinking, back to an hourly pattern to Lancaster with extentions to either branch off Carnforth...

 

[jamesr]

Even when I lived in Leeds I never knew anyone who used the Heysham ferries, I thought they were mainly based on the freight market.

From the Isle of Man, the daytime Heysham boat is the only year-round passenger vessel, and when I've used it, the train has always had a reasonable number of people on it. I'm sure a few use it through to Leeds (I have once in the ten-odd times I've used it), but it's real purpose is to get to Lancaster.

Up until a few years ago, there were two trains to Heysham, the first (if I remember rightly) leaving at 1246, which was a much more attractive proposition than waiting around for an hour until 1315 with nothing but a practically derelict ferry company and a nuclear power station for company! That said, I appreciate it's hardly the most essential connection NT make each day in terms of passenger numbers.

 

[tbtc]

Well it doesn't look like Barrow is going to be electrified either, so send the Scotland services via Wigan and revert the rest of TPE North West to the pre-2007 pattern. Sorted.

...but this then means Lancaster gets three or four trains every two hours to Manchester (compared the hourly service pre 2007), because there's both the TPE service via Wigan and the "old" service via Bolton.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From the Isle of Man, the daytime Heysham boat is the only year-round passenger vessel, and when I've used it, the train has always had a reasonable number of people on it. I'm sure a few use it through to Leeds (I have once in the ten-odd times I've used it), but it's real purpose is to get to Lancaster.

Up until a few years ago, there were two trains to Heysham, the first (if I remember rightly) leaving at 1246, which was a much more attractive proposition than waiting around for an hour until 1315 with nothing but a practically derelict ferry company and a nuclear power station for company! That said, I appreciate it's hardly the most essential connection NT make each day in terms of passenger numbers.

Cheers

 

[IanXC]

As far as I can see theres very few through services on the branch, and the service is generally around about hourly. It sounds as if the 3 car 185s are hardly well loaded shall we say, so hows about (if the service can be segregated) acquiring a couple of 101s a la Chiltern's Princes Risborough to Aylesbury Line?

 

[Lampshade]

...but this then means Lancaster gets three or four trains every two hours to Manchester (compared the hourly service pre 2007), because there's both the TPE service via Wigan and the "old" service via Bolton.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Cheers

Logic should then be to completely reinstate the old calling patterns, don't forget that VXC ran between Lancaster and Manchester every 2 hours as well calling only at Preston and Bolton:

1tph Manchester Airport - Blackpool (TPE EMU)
1tph Manchester Victoria - Blackpool (Northern)
1tph Manchester Airport - Lancaster (Barrow/Windermere alternating) (TPE 'Classic')
1tp2h Manchester Airport - Scotland (Glasgow/Edinburgh alternating) (TPE EMU)

If you send the Scotland services via Wigan you could keep the Preston - Hazel Grove services as well, Windermere regains its regular service to Manchester and there is a net increase in capacity between Preston and Manchester. The 185s freed up with Blackpool electrification could then be used to strengthen Barrow/Windermere services, everyone's a winner

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not sure where the offence comes from (or your comment about the lack of tourist attractions around here)...

There are only two direct services from Manchester Airport/ Manchester to Windermere, the 09.29 and the 16.00 (Monday to Thursday).

Let me clarify matters. The comment to which you refer was that of my wife...not I. She was responding to your posting #16 in which you stated:-
Either wire the Windermere branch or forget having direct Manchester services. ... she took your statement as being somewhat of an ultimatum.

The 0929 direct service is the one used and there are direct return services later in the day which means opportunities for a stay of 6 hours in which to do all that we require.

 

[ian959]

Windermere is one of those cases where the "business case" tests should be thrown out and pure bloody common sense be used. Its shortish, has no major infrastructure issues, electrification would thus not be overly expensive (especially if someone other than Network Rail did it!) and its a stupidly short diesel outpost off an electrified line.

It should be electrified paste haste as failing to do so keeps it a diesel outpost in a rapidly electrifying region that also limits the future likelihood of retaining direct Manchester trains which by the end of the decade could all be electric.

 

[tbtc]

Let me clarify matters. The comment to which you refer was that of my wife...not I. She was responding to your posting #16 in which you stated:-
Either wire the Windermere branch or forget having direct Manchester services. ... she took your statement as being somewhat of an ultimatum.

The 0929 direct service is the one used and there are direct return services later in the day which means opportunities for a stay of 6 hours in which to do all that we require.

I'd be happy for the line to be electrified (as I've clearly said elsewhere on this thread), but I think it'd be daft electrifying a line and then introducing a new regular DMU running under those wires.

Since there are only two trains a day (one train on Friday) from Manchester to WIndermere, its not like I'm talking of cutting a regular existing service.

 

[sonorguy]

Barry Doe once commented that a mid-afternoon departure he was on from Windermere (a 185) carried more in First than it did in Standard! (7 people inc. himslef in First and 6 in Standard!)

Maybe so in the winter but in summer many of the services are absolutely rammed.

 

[northwichcat]

...but this then means Lancaster gets three or four trains every two hours to Manchester (compared the hourly service pre 2007), because there's both the TPE service via Wigan and the "old" service via Bolton.

Huh?

Pre Dec-07 the 2 hourly pattern was:
Piccadilly- Carlisle and Glasgow or Edinburgh (Voyager)
Airport-Barrow (185)
Airport-Windermere (185)

That was 3 trains every 2 hours with a minimum of 10 carriages every 2 hours.

The EMU service between Manchester and Scotland is set to be every 2 hours initially but may be increased to hourly and have portion working to/from Liverpool in the future.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The EMU service between Manchester and Scotland is set to be every 2 hours initially but may be increased to hourly and have portion working to/from Liverpool in the future.

If the Windermere line were to be electrified, Manchester Airport could not obtain any benefit from it until the Manchester - Bolton - Euxton junction line was fully electrified. This would allow for the electrification work to Windermere to be carried out in time for this to happen. Can I ask two questions here:-

(1)...What length of time would be needed to complete the electrification works to Windermere?

(2)...It has recently been suggested that the time completion date for the Manchester to Euxton Junction electrification works has been brought forward. If this is the case, what now is the projected year for full completion of these works?

 

[cuccir]

Logic should then be to completely reinstate the old calling patterns, don't forget that VXC ran between Lancaster and Manchester every 2 hours as well calling only at Preston and Bolton:

1tph Manchester Airport - Blackpool (TPE EMU)
1tph Manchester Victoria - Blackpool (Northern)
1tph Manchester Airport - Lancaster (Barrow/Windermere alternating) (TPE 'Classic')
1tp2h Manchester Airport - Scotland (Glasgow/Edinburgh alternating) (TPE EMU)

If you send the Scotland services via Wigan you could keep the Preston - Hazel Grove services as well, Windermere regains its regular service to Manchester and there is a net increase in capacity between Preston and Manchester. The 185s freed up with Blackpool electrification could then be used to strengthen Barrow/Windermere services, everyone's a winner

All sounds good to me. It gets rid of train splitting as well which can cause severe overcrowding if an earlier service is delayed coming in.

 

[Nym]

If the Windermere line were to be electrified, Manchester Airport could not obtain any benefit from it until the Manchester - Bolton - Euxton junction line was fully electrified. This would allow for the electrification work to Windermere to be carried out in time for this to happen. Can I ask two questions here:-

(1)...What length of time would be needed to complete the electrification works to Windermere?

(2)...It has recently been suggested that the time completion date for the Manchester to Euxton Junction electrification works has been brought forward. If this is the case, what now is the projected year for full completion of these works?

1) Don't know, but it wouldn't be as long as some would have you think, the major amounts of time would be foundations and alignment. No sub stations needed. Would be nice to have a siding at Windermere or two platforms again so that other summer specials can run.

2) Not heard this, but it's needed to be done ASAP.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I agree.

Not sure where the offence comes from (or your comment about the lack of tourist attractions around here)...

I am the wife of the person who was writing to you. My husband said that my comments were harsh. I do not normally involve myself in rail matters on the internet, but I do travel from Manchester Airport to Durham once a month for committee meeting work, plus for leisure purposes from both Wilmslow and Manchester Airport stations with my husband.

If my feelings were aroused, it was that I took you for a person who was wanting to stop me using a direct service to Windermere, which I use to visit my elder sister in Ambleside with my husband, by getting the bus there from the station in Windermere. My husband, this afternoon, has made me see what was said after the comments that I made my husband say to you yesterday.

I now see that I have misjudged you and I am sorry for spoiling your day yesterday.

 

[OxtedL]

(Did anyone else read that last post in a different voice? )

So, the argument essentially seems to be coming to two things:
* Will electric services enable direct services to continue in the future?
* Since Barrow is unlikely to be wired up in the foreseeable future, is there [any need/ any point/ is it fair] to wire Windermere?

 

[Lampshade]

Since Barrow is unlikely to be wired up in the foreseeable future, is there [any need/ any point/ is it fair] to wire Windermere?

Exactly the point I made a page ago

There's no point in wiring Windermere if Barrow isn't being done.

 

[northwichcat]

Exactly the point I made a page ago

There's no point in wiring Windermere if Barrow isn't being done.

A whole page and the thread's got nowhere!

I wonder where the people who object to a DMU running a through service mainly under OHE, which will be used for other services, would draw the line for being satisfied.

For instance, we know that Manchester Airport/Victoria-Blackpool and Hazel Grove-Preston will use the new OHE on the Bolton corridor. People aren't happy with Windermere/Barrow-Man Airport being DMU but what if instead the Barrow and Windermere branches were electrified BUT the Man Airport-Blackpool service was actually a Blackpool-Manchester-Doncaster service that would carry on using DMUs - would people still want two services instead of a through diesel?

 

[WatcherZero]

NR themselves suggest a Barrow-Man Air DMU service as something a franchisee could develop in the Northern RUS final edition with a positive BCR.