Wind Power and UK Energy Use

[HSTEd]

With current wind and solar, and with France / Germany being sunny too, the current price of electricity whilesale is -£70/MWh!

Battery systems will be making their return on invetsment in short order.

At some point someone is going to set up a grid of wire resistors in a field and just burn electricity when its negatively priced

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

With current wind and solar, and with France / Germany being sunny too, the current price of electricity whilesale is -£70/MWh!

Battery systems will be making their return on invetsment in short order.

-96.22 at settlement period 29 (1400-1430) although now 119.50. In reality c40% of leccy is sold in forward mkts another 40% in the day ahead mkt and the remainder on the day. Battery operators are well placed to trade in day and of course can hold onto the charge for a while if no opportunities turn up later in the day. Going to be interesting to see what happens as battery build out grows as to whether the depth of negative pricing eases.

 

[furnessvale]

At some point someone is going to set up a grid of wire resistors in a field and just burn electricity when its negatively priced

Already done in my house. When they pay me to take electricity off their hands, the electrc fires go on and the (gas) central heating is switched off.

 

[The Ham]

Already done in my house. When they pay me to take electricity off their hands, the electrc fires go on and the (gas) central heating is switched off.

During the summer months (when heating isn't needed) it would be possible for people to turn off their hot water (gas) and turn on their immersion heaters (if they have a hot water tank) if they are getting paid to use electricity.

As whilst there's losses (over time the water cools) it's can be a reasonable energy storage system.

 

[MotCO]

Already done in my house. When they pay me to take electricity off their hands, the electrc fires go on and the (gas) central heating is switched off.

Already done in my house. When they pay me to take electricity off their hands, the electrc fires go on and the (gas) central heating is switched off.

Do you sit all day looking at your meter to decide when to switch the gas off and the electric fire on, or does it do it automatically?

 

[Class 317]

Do you sit all day looking at your meter to decide when to switch the gas off and the electric fire on, or does it do it automatically?

My Flat has various smart controls linked to Octopus agile which automatically control when water is heated, washing machines and dishwashers switch on etc. Saves a fortune on the bills

 

[furnessvale]

Do you sit all day looking at your meter to decide when to switch the gas off and the electric fire on, or does it do it automatically?

I get 24hrs notice of the prices charged for electricity in half hour slots throughout the day and night.

Once a day I spend 10 minutes on the computer deciding which slots to choose to get the cheapest (or even negative price) electricity to charge my battery, or even if it is worth having a gas free day. The electric fan heater relies on a timer.

 

[Bald Rick]

And there goes the record for instantaneous Solar generation in GB, at 12GW (estimated by Sheffield Solar).

 

[AlastairFraser]

And there goes the record for instantaneous Solar generation in GB, at 12GW (estimated by Sheffield Solar).

12GW! Imagine the potential if installation of a solar panel and battery system on every public sector building in the UK was government policy.

 

[brad465]

12GW! Imagine the potential if installation of a solar panel and battery system on every public sector building in the UK was government policy.

This doesn't cover every public sector building, but it was only a fortnight ago that this story was published regarding 400 such buildings:

Schools and hospitals get £180m solar investment from Great British Energy

The government has announced the funding for 200 schools and hospitals apiece across the UK.

www.bbc.co.uk

Hundreds of schools and hospitals across the UK are set to receive £180 million for solar panels from the government's new state-owned energy company.

The first major investment from Great British Energy was announced on Friday as part of government efforts to reduce the country's planet-warming emissions.

The move was welcomed by the school leaders union and NHS providers who said it would also help to manage the "enormous financial pressure" of energy bills.

But Andrew Bowie, shadow energy secretary, said the government's net zero plans would make the country "poorer".
"Right now, money that should be spent on your children's education or your family's healthcare is instead being wasted on sky-high energy bills," said Energy Secretary Ed Miliband.

"Great British Energy's first major project will be to help our vital public institutions save hundreds of millions on bills to reinvest on the frontline," he added.

The government also hopes that the project, to provide solar panels for 200 schools and 200 hospitals, will reduce the use of fossil fuels across public property and help achieve its long-term climate goals.

This is not the first time such a project has existed - the Public Sector Decarbonisation Scheme, launched under the previous Conservative government, has been running for more than four years and distributed close to £3bn for green technologies.

This project in the first instance will target less than 1% of schools.

But Alex Green, head of Let's Go Zero - a national campaign to reduce the climate impact of schools - said it was a welcome first move.

"It is tough economic times, and to see this progress is a big step. [Whilst] acknowledging that 200 schools is a small starting point, to achieve this in one year is a good pace," she said.

The announcement has been strongly welcomed by schools, unions and NHS estate managers who have previously warned of the pressure of high energy bills.

In 2022, the National Association of Headteachers (NAHT) had said that a third of its leaders were predicting a budget deficit following a spike in energy costs.

Paul Whiteman, NAHT general secretary, said schools wanted to install solar panels as they provided cheaper energy than paying for gas, but the upfront cost could often be prohibitive.

"This announcement is therefore welcome and a step in the right direction. In the longer term, this should also help schools manage energy bills, which have been a source of enormous financial pressure in recent years," he said.

Perhaps if the railway had this policy for most station roofs, they could be more self-sufficient on powering the stations, and maybe even sell back to the grid to make some money.

 

[Trainbike46]

This doesn't cover every public sector building, but it was only a fortnight ago that this story was published regarding 400 such buildings:

Schools and hospitals get £180m solar investment from Great British Energy

The government has announced the funding for 200 schools and hospitals apiece across the UK.

www.bbc.co.uk

It certainly is a very good start!

Perhaps if the railway had this policy for most station roofs, they could be more self-sufficient on powering the stations, and maybe even sell back to the grid to make some money.

Some station roofs, including King's Cross*, do have PV panels, and I think Cambridge South is gettting them?

Internationally, I know 14 Dutch stations including Eindhoven Centraal, Rotterdam Centraal, and Utrecht Centraal are fitted with solar PV. And there are plans for more.

*tbh I feel the article I link there is an example of Network Rail quite spectacularly missing the point, by which I mean looking at small things but ignoring all the big stuff, but that is probably off-topic.

 

[AlastairFraser]

This doesn't cover every public sector building, but it was only a fortnight ago that this story was published regarding 400 such buildings:

Schools and hospitals get £180m solar investment from Great British Energy

The government has announced the funding for 200 schools and hospitals apiece across the UK.

www.bbc.co.uk

Perhaps if the railway had this policy for most station roofs, they could be more self-sufficient on powering the stations, and maybe even sell back to the grid to make some money.

That's a good start, and I agree with your point about the railway. Solar panels at stations to power most of the energy requirements of the facilities at least (with surplus fed back into the grid) sounds like a great idea.

 

[takno]

12GW! Imagine the potential if installation of a solar panel and battery system on every public sector building in the UK was government policy.

That would probably lead to the closure of many small, already marginal community buildings, as well as the wasteful installation of solar panels on relatively unproductive roofs, and in all probability a rash of equipment thefts.

Solar (and batteries) are doing well, and installing them on larger public buildings with suitable architecture is something to be encouraged, but a one-size-fits-all commandment would likely set us back quite badly

 

[AlastairFraser]

That would probably lead to the closure of many small, already marginal community buildings, as well as the wasteful installation of solar panels on relatively unproductive roofs, and in all probability a rash of equipment thefts.

Solar (and batteries) are doing well, and installing them on larger public buildings with suitable architecture is something to be encouraged, but a one-size-fits-all commandment would likely set us back quite badly

I understand where you're coming from, but it's all to do with funding models. Sale of surplus electricity could be a way to subsidise the future of community buildings that are used less frequently or less financially sustainable.

 

[InTheEastMids]

in all probability a rash of equipment thefts

A typical solar panel is about 6ft x 3ft, fragile when dropped, weighs at least 20 kg and is securely fastened to a roof well above head height
And new, they now cost around £70 ish.
So the hassle/risk of theft vs resale value means there are other things far more worth stealing.
(Obviously vandalism is a different risk to be assessed)

Solar panels at stations to power most of the energy requirements of the facilities at least

A lot of stations have some kind of heritage status that at best complicates things, and at worst can rule it out completely.

Some station roofs, including King's Cross*, do have PV panels, and I think Cambridge South is getting them?

I feel the article I link there is an example of Network Rail quite spectacularly missing the point

Isn't it just? It led me to think that it's a series of one-offs, rather than evidence of a programme based on serious commitment.

Commercial leasing arrangements have significantly held back the commercial solar market, so that might be a factor (e.g. if private TOCs have been leasing stations from Network Rail as a landlord).

 

[Bald Rick]

12GW! Imagine the potential if installation of a solar panel and battery system on every public sector building in the UK was government policy.

Or imagine if it was UK Government policy to require all new warehouses / data centres to have them installed as a condition of planning consent, or if UK Government followed the French policy of requiring all car parks over 1,500 sq m to have installed PV panels over at least 50% of the area by 2028 (all car parks, not just new, with some exceptions). 1,500 sq m is approx 130 spaces.

 

[HSTEd]

A typical solar panel is about 6ft x 3ft, fragile when dropped, weighs at least 20 kg and is securely fastened to a roof well above head height
And new, they now cost around £70 ish.
So the hassle/risk of theft vs resale value means there are other things far more worth stealing.
(Obviously vandalism is a different risk to be assessed)

The church in my parent's hometown recently installed solar panels for the primary purpose of making it more difficult to steal the lead!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Here's a rubbish photo I took in 2022 of the screen displaying the output of the solar panels on the roof of Torino Porta Susa station.
The station is sited in a cutting but the roof is entirely covered in PV panels.
The display is on the concourse, showing it was producing 196kW on a June day near mid-day - enough to boil 60-odd kettles.

 

[Bald Rick]

Here's a rubbish photo I took in 2022 of the screen displaying the output of the solar panels on the roof of Torino Porta Susa station.
The station is sited in a cutting but the roof is entirely covered in PV panels.
The display is on the concourse, showing it was producing 196kW on a June day near mid-day - enough to boil 60-odd kettles.
View attachment 177617

Not sure where the display is in Blackfriars now, but there’s the best part of a megawatt on that roof! It supplies roughly half of what the station needs on an annualised basis.

 

[Krokodil]

Depots should be the obvious place for the railway to install panels. Large buildings, usually modern ones with simple roofs. The Ffestiniog has installed panels onto their carriage shed and the output is enough to power the whole works.

 

[jon0844]

Not sure where the display is in Blackfriars now, but there’s the best part of a Gigawatt on that roof! It supplies roughly half of what the station needs on an annualised basis.

Yeah I wondered where it went too.

While it would be worth many industrial buildings investing in solar, especially those massive warehouses used by the supermarkets, Amazon etc, there are going to be potential issues with the added weight that can't be ignored.

I would sincerely hope all new warehouses built would factor in the weight, although you can now get flexible solar panels that are only a few mm thick. I am not sure how good the efficiency is on them, but even if they were less they would be better than nothing.

 

[BlueLeanie]

For a brand new electrification project, say Oxford to Milton Keynes or Marylebone to Leamington Spa, would it be possible to design a linear solar farm for most of the length?

Say 100km of solar panels, 8 metres wide. Would that be 500,000kWh of electricity on a good day?

Potentially enough income for Great British Energy to fund electrification of the CML for the solar income?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Not sure where the display is in Blackfriars now, but there’s the best part of a Gigawatt on that roof! It supplies roughly half of what the station needs on an annualised basis.

A megawatt more likely

 

[Bald Rick]

A megawatt more likely

err, yes, corrected!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

err, yes, corrected!

It was forecast to produce c900MWh/year so thats close to a GWh!! and I suspect the panels could be upgraded now to increase the output. Given Miliband push for more renewables its pretty damming that there aren't simple measures like the French have adopted for car parks and no more big distribution warehouses without solar roofs being implemented.

 

[Bald Rick]

It was forecast to produce c900MWh/year so thats close to a GWh!! and I suspect the panels could be upgraded now to increase the output. Given Miliband push for more renewables its pretty damming that there aren't simple measures like the French have adopted for car parks and no more big distribution warehouses without solar roofs being implemented.

I’m of the view that all new solar - including domestic - should come with on site battery storage that covers at least 2 hours peak output. We already have plenty of solar in service and lots more coming (it will be around 20GW peak by the end of the year) - we simply won’t be able to use all of it without some form of storage. Of course EVs will help here, but having local battery storage will also help with the DNO.

 

[AlastairFraser]

A lot of stations have some kind of heritage status that at best complicates things, and at worst can rule it out completely.

Although those stations are far and few between, and, for the stations that truly fit in that category, installation of green technology on heritage buildings is an area that will need tackling in future. The railway is a good place to trial that.

Or imagine if it was UK Government policy to require all new warehouses / data centres to have them installed as a condition of planning consent, or if UK Government followed the French policy of requiring all car parks over 1,500 sq m to have installed PV panels over at least 50% of the area by 2028 (all car parks, not just new, with some exceptions). 1,500 sq m is approx 130 spaces.

That's good, although the potential to subsidise public sector operational expenses by selling power back to the grid would also be helpful, especially for local government, with their financial outlook!

 

[HSTEd]

I’m of the view that all new solar - including domestic - should come with on site battery storage that covers at least 2 hours peak output. We already have plenty of solar in service and lots more coming (it will be around 20GW peak by the end of the year) - we simply won’t be able to use all of it without some form of storage. Of course EVs will help here, but having local battery storage will also help with the DNO.

The problem this causes is that the batteries now cost a substantial portion of the cost of the entire installation. Especially relatively large batteries such as two hours.

My nominal ~5kW/9.5kWh installation was more or less doubled in price by the battery.

I think the big issue is that the existing electricity bureaucracy really isn't suitable for this environment, rather than technical issues with absorbing power spikes.

Hot water cylinders and electric cars can soak up tens to hundreds of gigawatts if we need them to.

The current industry structure might make some sense for a perpetual 1990, but I think it is increasingly obvious that it cannot function properly in this environment.

 

[CdBrux]

If it's a 'good thing' then it will be done without being mandated, and given high energy prices right now business cases should be as good as they are likely to be. From occasional observations it seems many new build houses, with roofs suitably aligned, have solar panels. Warehouses (where you could also charge fork lift trucks) is obviously hard to see. As mentioned extra weight of the roof may have consequences that needs to be considered. However I think solar in such settings feels more acceptable than on prime farmland as long as the cost / KWh is competitive.

 

[jon0844]

If it's a 'good thing' then it will be done without being mandated, and given high energy prices right now business cases should be as good as they are likely to be. From occasional observations it seems many new build houses, with roofs suitably aligned, have solar panels. Warehouses (where you could also charge fork lift trucks) is obviously hard to see. As mentioned extra weight of the roof may have consequences that needs to be considered. However I think solar in such settings feels more acceptable than on prime farmland as long as the cost / KWh is competitive.

In my experience of seeing new builds, the developers install way too few panels to really make an impact. Solar panels are cheap these days so there's no reason not to completely fill the roof (with the necessary spacing around the edges etc). Even if the DNO restricts export, and the inverter clips the generated power in the summer, the extra panels make a massive difference on cloudy days and in the winter.

It's like a box ticking exercise for many developers (suggesting the requirements are not good enough), and if I was buying a new build today, I'd be demanding they do the job properly. I'd also want them to consider building space for home batteries, and providing the necessary cabling and space for the associated equipment.