Will we ever see an Open Access Operator on the West Coast Mainline?.

[JonathanH]

HSTs are about all that is available!

They need to wait now until trailer coaches are released by XC, GWR and Scotrail and by then there could be 221s or 222s on the table as well.

Converting an electric locomotive to work with any of those might not be cheap.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Coming soon... Southport Trains Calling at Rugby, Crewe, Wigan Wallgate, Burscough Bridge & Southport

Now come on, obviously it has to go via Castlefield.

Agreed about West Midlands already carrying the budget market at the southern end of the WCML.

Indeed, but Manchester must surely be the golden target.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

Any spare paths post HS2 will surely see the long needed Whitehaven direct to Northampton service installed

 

[Kite159]

Now come on, obviously it has to go via Castlefield.





Indeed, but Manchester must surely be the golden target.

I wonder how many people have started to use those LNR + TfW only fares to get from London to Manchester. Assuming they can buy them.

 

[JonathanH]

I wonder how many people have started to use those LNR + TfW only fares to get from London to Manchester. Assuming they can buy them.

Where are they actually advertised? Presumably the best hope is that someone who has been from London to Birmingham or Liverpool on an LNWR fare starts to wonder whether there is a London to Manchester equivalent.

I do wonder how long they will be about given government policy to remove operator-restricted fares.

 

[jfisher21]

Maybe something like Rochdale -Manchester Victoria - hartford - winsford - nuneaton - euston could work ?

 

[JonathanH]

Maybe something like Rochdale -Manchester Victoria - hartford - winsford - nuneaton - euston could work ?

What would work about it? There really isn't any point running this sort of service, nor is there capacity at Manchester Victoria (or indeed Rochdale).

 

[paddy1]

What would work about it? There really isn't any point running this sort of service, nor is there capacity at Manchester Victoria (or indeed Rochdale).

Rochdale to Euston via Manchester Victoria and various 'non abstractive' type WCML stations has already been tried some years ago and didn't last very long.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Rochdale to Euston via Manchester Victoria and various 'non abstractive' type WCML stations has already been tried some years ago and didn't last very long.

Because of pathing issues. The Trent Valley has been 4 tracked since then and HS2 will free up more capacity.

 

[Kite159]

Where are they actually advertised? Presumably the best hope is that someone who has been from London to Birmingham or Liverpool on an LNWR fare starts to wonder whether there is a London to Manchester equivalent.

I do wonder how long they will be about given government policy to remove operator-restricted fares.

Trainsplit, maybe also word of mouth.

Or if someone went into advance mode of the journey planning software to see if cheaper but slower routes were available.

The only downside with those cheaper tickets is TfW which can be 2 coach units.

 

[Clansman]

Does anybody know when ORR will publish its inevitable rejection letter decision letter on Grand Union's Stirling application?

 

[Chiltern006]

I think another one of the reasons why there isn't a WCML Anglo-Scottish OA company is that the trains have to tilt, otherwise are capped at 110. when the non-eps speed limits are increased then it will be interesting to see what happens

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think another one of the reasons why there isn't a WCML Anglo-Scottish OA company is that the trains have to tilt, otherwise are capped at 110. when the non-eps speed limits are increased then it will be interesting to see what happens

There were certainly paths for a 110mph Grand Central service to Blackpool, and there is a fair bit of 110mph running north of Preston anyway e.g. the TPE units (and south of it, e.g. LNR services that use the fast lines). GC only didn't go ahead because COVID knackered the business model, had COVID not happened it'd be well established by now.

 

[Callumphillips]

Coming soon... Southport Trains Calling at Rugby, Crewe, Wigan Wallgate, Burscough Bridge & Southport

Agreed about West Midlands already carrying the budget market at the southern end of the WCML.

Thank God! Someone else with the same idea! Doubt there will be space for it, but if there was, they could run a Southport-London service which shares itself with the existing Southport to Wigan line, WCML from Wigan downwards and HS2 from Crewe or Stafford downwards at a frequency of even just a few trains a day.

 

[paul1609]

My WCML open access operator will have its own London Terminal, London Primrose Hill avoiding the expense of a central London Terminal, trains will call at Lichfield Trent Valley (West Midlands Parkway), Stoke on Ttrent, Winsford, Leyland, Lancaster, Kendal and Windermere.
The lake district market is far more appealing to the Southeast than Blackpool. A dedicated coach link will continue to Whitehaven via Bo'ness, Ambleside, Grasmere, Keswick, Cockermouth and Workington with Guaranteed connections and through marketing. No priv will be accepted. stock will be battery electric 803s with standard class only.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thank God! Someone else with the same idea! Doubt there will be space for it, but if there was, they could run a Southport-London service which shares itself with the existing Southport to Wigan line, WCML from Wigan downwards and HS2 from Crewe or Stafford downwards at a frequency of even just a few trains a day.

I did in my younger years wonder if you could run a set of 158s, one from Southport, one from Blackpool and one from Ormskirk, on a combined service to London. But then reality kicked in

(To be fair the old First North Western service was two portions, one from Rochdale and one from Blackpool)

 

[Callumphillips]

I did in my younger years wonder if you could run a set of 158s, one from Southport, one from Blackpool and one from Ormskirk, on a combined service to London. But then reality kicked in

(To be fair the old First North Western service was two portions, one from Rochdale and one from Blackpool)

It would be complicated and require a lot of planning but you could do it I think.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2021 ==

My WCML open access operator will have its own London Terminal, London Primrose Hill avoiding the expense of a central London Terminal, trains will call at Lichfield Trent Valley (West Midlands Parkway), Stoke on Ttrent, Winsford, Leyland, Lancaster, Kendal and Windermere.
The lake district market is far more appealing to the Southeast than Blackpool. A dedicated coach link will continue to Whitehaven via Bo'ness, Ambleside, Grasmere, Keswick, Cockermouth and Workington with Guaranteed connections and through marketing. No priv will be accepted. stock will be battery electric 803s with standard class only.

Absolutely! Windermere should have at least a few trains a day to and from London.

Although to be fair, once the new set of HS2-dedicated platforms at Euston relieves the currently existing platforms of much pressure, you would be able to use one of the currently existing platforms.

Also, you could run to units to Lancaster and have them divide there, with one heading to Windermere as you say and the other one heading to Workington.

 

[JonathanH]

Absolutely! Windermere should have at least a few trains a day to and from London.

I suspect the locals are more pleased they have a supermarket than a station capable of handling direct trains from London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect the locals are more pleased they have a supermarket than a station capable of handling direct trains from London.

The station would be perfectly well capable of handling a 5-car 80x if they did want to do it, that being the stock Avanti would have that would be capable of it. The platform at Windermere itself is quite long.

I reckon if Avanti had the stock/crew a summer only Friday evening out leaving Euston around 1800, calling at a few stops along the way, and a Sunday afternoon return leaving around 1400, 1500 or so, would do pretty well. No paths pre-HS2, but post-HS2 there might be. It's not really any different to the Eurostar ski trains in concept. It'd obviously not keep an open access operator going on its own, but it would strike me that it could well be a viable commercial proposition for a TOC, particularly if you could portion work it with something else e.g. the Blackpool, which has quite low demand past Preston so a 5-car portion would be enough.

 

[JonathanH]

The station would be perfectly well capable of handling a 5-car 80x if they did want to do it, that being the stock Avanti would have that would be capable of it. The platform at Windermere itself is quite long.

You are making the assumption however that that unit isn't better employed on services to the North Wales Coast or the Welsh Borders, that route staying on the WCML after HS2.

Obviously everything is up for grabs though and I guess that one would be spared if it was seen as a lucrative proposition.

Given Voyagers ran services that terminated at Lancaster in the past you would have thought it might have already been tried in the past with Northern giving up a path if it really was viable. How many passengers travelling to Windermere are genuinely put off by the change at Oxenholme or using a taxi from there?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given Voyagers ran services that terminated at Lancaster in the past you would have thought it might have already been tried in the past with Northern giving up a path if it really was viable. How many passengers travelling to Windermere are genuinely put off by the change at Oxenholme or using a taxi from there?

I'd think quite a lot. Leisure passengers like direct trains, and if they have to change they like it being easy, such as "walk straight outside and there's the 555" at Windermere. It'd not be justified now, but if HS2 frees enough paths up...

Oxenholme is quite literally in the middle of a field - it's a classic junction station that doesn't itself really serve anywhere very well other than by car (there's a small nearby village that no doubt owes a fair bit of its existence to the railway, that said). I'm sure Bob's Taxis (made up name) of Kendal would do it, but it's hardly going to have Uber, and nor is there a big fleet of Hackney carriages to take you off to Ambleside for a not so small fee.

 

[cr767055]

It seems Northampton is being forgotten in this thread - one of the largest towns in the UK and one of the largest settlements without an actual Intercity rail link... I get the situation on slow lines of the WCML, but to serve 215,000 people, I think the small speed reduction is worth it.