Will Scotrail have enough EMUs for Barrhead when electrification is complete?

[Southsider]

Going slightly off topic, in the absence of a rolling stock order is it reasonable to assume that Scotrail have sufficient slack in their EMU fleet to run Barrhead when electrification is complete?

 

[hexagon789]

Going slightly off topic, in the absence of a rolling stock order is it reasonable to assume that Scotrail have sufficient slack in their EMU fleet to run Barrhead when electrification is complete?

There are certainly spare 380s/385s, but I understand the intention is to use 318/320s.

 

[380101]

There are certainly spare 380s/385s, but I understand the intention is to use 318/320s.

Can't use 318/320s on that route as it's not set up for DOO operation. All new DOO operations require appropriate platform/train CCTV interfaces or onboard DOO cctv cameras/monitors.

The likelihood is that it will be 385s as most of the drivers that work the route currently sign 385s and 380s and Ayr drivers are due to be trained on 385s within the next 12 months.

 

[sannox]

Didn't they just add mirrors to Paisley Canal for 318/320 use.

 

[380101]

Didn't they just add mirrors to Paisley Canal for 318/320 use.

Yes, but I believe the standards for DOO routes have been changed since 2012 and new routes cannot have mirrors. There's also been no mention of how they intend to operate the route but the likelihood is that it will be DCO unless ScotRail/TS want yet another dispute with the RMT and potentially ASLEF.

 

[hexagon789]

Can't use 318/320s on that route as it's not set up for DOO operation. All new DOO operations require appropriate platform/train CCTV interfaces or onboard DOO cctv cameras/monitors.

The likelihood is that it will be 385s as most of the drivers that work the route currently sign 385s and 380s and Ayr drivers are due to be trained on 385s within the next 12 months.

I was going off posts back at the existing of this thread. 380/385s I can see being used, certainly makes more sense when you mention the lack of DOO equipment, but I assumed the Barrhead/EK would be moving to DOO as per the Strathclyde Electric routes.

 

[sannox]

East Kilbride and Barrhead would comfortably be covered by the Strathclyde Manning Agreement and move to DOO.

 

[najaB]

East Kilbride and Barrhead would comfortably be covered by the Strathclyde Manning Agreement and move to DOO.

As noted above, the problem isn't the union agreements but rather that the infrastructure doesn't currently support DOO.

 

[380101]

East Kilbride and Barrhead would comfortably be covered by the Strathclyde Manning Agreement and move to DOO.

Highly likely that it will indeed come under auspices of the SMA, however I'd imagine that the RMT will put up a good fight to keep the routes as Conductor operated. Likewise ASLEF are very likely to back them in that fight.

ScotRail have just enacted a rather crazy policy of removing wheelchair ramps from dozens of manned stations across the network under the guise of the ramps no longer met H&S requirements. Now the only routes guaranteed to be able to provide passenger assistance to board and alight trains are ones that have Conductor operation. Manned stations on routes the Strathclyde Manning Agreement (SMA) cover which have lost their ramps now no longer guarantee a turn up and go service for passengers of reduced mobility that require assistance as the SMA does NOT guarantee a 2nd member of staff on the train. Downgrading the soon to be electrified Barrhead and East Kilbride routes to DOO under the SMA will greatly reduce access to public transport for persons of reduced mobility. A retrograde step by an increasingly out of touch senior management team within ScotRail Trains Ltd.

 

[Falcon1200]

The Barrhead terminators at present are only hourly, therefore one 3 or 4-car EMU could cover the service, and even if the timetable goes back to the pre-Covid level only two sets would be required, which could well be squeezed from Scotrail's existing fleet. Things will change of course once East Kilbride is wired!

SMA does NOT guarantee a 2nd member of staff on the train. Downgrading the soon to be electrified Barrhead and East Kilbride routes to DOO under the SMA will greatly reduce access to public transport for persons of reduced mobility.

All trains should be diagrammed for a second member of staff, but if that person is not available on an SMA service the train will still run, whereas on a Guard-operated route it will be cancelled and no-one gets a train. It really will be quite ludicrous if a train to Neilston can run, as they have for over 30 years, without a Guard, yet a train to Barrhead, 3 miles away and to be operated by the same stock, cannot.

 

[380101]

The Barrhead terminators at present are only hourly, therefore one 3 or 4-car EMU could cover the service, and even if the timetable goes back to the pre-Covid level only two sets would be required, which could well be squeezed from Scotrail's existing fleet. Things will change of course once East Kilbride is wired!



All trains should be diagrammed for a second member of staff, but if that person is not available on an SMA service the train will still run, whereas on a Guard-operated route it will be cancelled and no-one gets a train. It really will be quite ludicrous if a train to Neilston can run, as they have for over 30 years, without a Guard, yet a train to Barrhead, 3 miles away and to be operated by the same stock, cannot.

Yes, you are correct in that all trains are diagramed a 2nd person however the SMA only states a 2nd must be rostered for the train, not that they must be on it. So the train will indeed still run if it is an SMA DOO service, however with the removal of wheelchair ramps from lots of manned stations within the Strathclyde network there is now no longer a guarantee that persons of reduced mobility will be able to board the train they wish to. It used to be a rare occasion there was no Ticket Examiner or station staff available to assist on the routes I drive over but it is becoming a more regular occurance where I have no TE and the station is unmanned.

 

[drb61]

East Kilbride and Barrhead would comfortably be covered by the Strathclyde Manning Agreement and move to DOO.

How did they get away with extending DOO to Edinburgh (via Bathgate) if the agreement only covers former Strathclyde region?

 

[Falcon1200]

It used to be a rare occasion there was no Ticket Examiner or station staff available to assist on the routes I drive over but it is becoming a more regular occurance where I have no TE and the station is unmanned.

That's rather poor practice by Scotrail, every train should have the second person on board except in unusual or unforeseen circumstances.

 

[sannox]

How did they get away with extending DOO to Edinburgh (via Bathgate) if the agreement only covers former Strathclyde region?

Through much controversy at the time and RMT strike action. Government view was seen as extension of Clyde electrics and the stock here (334s) didn't have door control panels for guards with nobody wanting to cover the cost to fit them, plus the extension was designed for DOO. RMT sort of gave in and pushed hard to retain on other routes. DCO then happened with EnG.

 

[Carlisle]

. DCO then happened with EnG.

Edinburgh-Glasgow is driver door release, DCO potentially gives drivers full control of doors or can be shared with conductors as happens on Greater Anglia for example.

 

[sannox]

Edinburgh-Glasgow is driver door release, DCO potentially gives drivers full control of doors or can be shared with conductors as happens on Greater Anglia for example.

Apologies, you are entirely correct, DCO was what was proposed and not accepted. Driver Open, Conductor Close DOCO is what happened on Glasgow to Edinburgh via Falkirk.

 

[SC318250]

I think Class 380 will initially be used on Barrhead services with the Paisley Canal services becoming 318/320 operated.
When East Kilbride goes electric, then I think it will 4 car 380 units, from the Neilston with 6 car 318/320 going on to Neilston services.
Inverclyde services may see more 318/320 operations also