Will my friend be ok?

[TrainUser1235]

Hi guys,

Yesterday, a friend of mine bought a £2 ticket for a short journey, using his railcard. He didn't know his railcard had expired a month before. A ticket inspector stopped him for his ticket just before scanning through the gate, and asked to see his railcard. My friend at that moment realised it was expired, and explained that to the inspector. The inspector asked for his details to send him a form, and my friend, STUPIDLY, gave the inspector the wrong details, giving his old address he doesn't lie at anymore, and a false surname. In the uber on the way to his job interview he researched online and realised that he would absolutely be caught and prosecuted, so he went to his job interview and then went back to the station, and found the same ticket inspector. He asked the inspector to change the address (not wanting to admit blatantly to the false surname) citing that he was intending on sending it to his grandparents address, but they will be away for a few weeks so he wanted to receive it to his address. The inspector said that all he could do was email them and tell them they need to change the address, so my friend wrote down his full real address, including his real full name on a piece of paper and gave it to the inspector. So the correct details were eventually provided. He asked the inspector if they would send the penalty notice to the new address, and the inspector replied "they have to".

My question is, do you think my friend will just receive the penalty fare letter of roughly £100 and be able to pay it, or will the train company (northern rail) charge him for giving false details as well? Since they took a picture of my friends expired rail card which said his real name on it, and my friend did then give a fake surname and that will be recorded. And if the inspector has changed the address but not the initial name given, will my friend be able to pay the penalty fare under that false name or will northern rail flag the false name? Even if the letter will be able to reach my friend at his real address, and he is fully willing to pay the fine.

I'm worried my friend may be given a criminal record due to the initial false details given. Any advice for him would be greatly appreciated, he knows what he initially did was incredibly stupid and in the heat of the moment thinking he wouldn't get caught, but is trying to amend his situation as much as possible. And one last question. How long does it usually take for the train companies to post these letters after the offence has been committed?

Thanks for reading this and hope you're having a nice day

 

[AlterEgo]

A penalty fare is not an option in these circumstances; these have to be given at the time of the stop and can't be issued retrospectively. So we can be certain you won't be penalty fared.

If you receive a letter from Northern, you can expect to be threatened with prosecution. This letter can sometimes come within a week but practically they have up to six months to commence court proceedings.

Northern often settle out of court, but for the cost of the outstanding fare plus a three figure administration fee. Note that this is not a penalty fare.

Northern may also audit your online purchase accounts to see how many tickets have been purchased since the railcard expired, and ask for those fares as part of a settlement too.

If you receive any correspondence, or a summons, please post it here with your name and address removed and advice can be given on how to respond.

 

[TrainUser1235]

A penalty fare is not an option in these circumstances; these have to be given at the time of the stop and can't be issued retrospectively. So we can be certain you won't be penalty fared.

If you receive a letter from Northern, you can expect to be threatened with prosecution. This letter can sometimes come within a week but practically they have up to six months to commence court proceedings.

Northern often settle out of court, but for the cost of the outstanding fare plus a three figure administration fee. Note that this is not a penalty fare.

Northern may also audit your online purchase accounts to see how many tickets have been purchased since the railcard expired, and ask for those fares as part of a settlement too.

If you receive any correspondence, or a summons, please post it here with your name and address removed and advice can be given on how to respond.

Thank you for getting back so quickly! My friend took 4 other trains (and one coach but I assume that doesn't apply. Obviously for none of these was his railcard checked, other wise he would've known sooner. Do you think they will threaten prosecution simply for the lack of railcard or for giving false info? And if the matter is settled out of court, would my friend end up with any kind of criminal record do you think?

Once again I appreciate the reply, and I shall definitely post any correspondence with my friends identity concealed.

 

[WesternLancer]

A penalty fare is not an option in these circumstances; these have to be given at the time of the stop and can't be issued retrospectively. So we can be certain you won't be penalty fared.

If you receive a letter from Northern, you can expect to be threatened with prosecution. This letter can sometimes come within a week but practically they have up to six months to commence court proceedings.

Northern often settle out of court, but for the cost of the outstanding fare plus a three figure administration fee. Note that this is not a penalty fare.

Northern may also audit your online purchase accounts to see how many tickets have been purchased since the railcard expired, and ask for those fares as part of a settlement too.

If you receive any correspondence, or a summons, please post it here with your name and address removed and advice can be given on how to respond.

Of course in addition to this Northern may issue one of their 'self styled' Fixed Penalty Notices - which for the OP's benefit is basically a demand for £100 in exchange for not taking your friend to court. So a version of the out of court settlement approach but I think it does not involve asking them if they will consider that option.

The real problem will be if the address correction does not get sorted out - not receiving the correspondence is the way for problems to get much more complex to solve.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@TrainUser1235. Welcome to the forum. Quick question. Is this "friend of yours" able to inform the bona-fide occupant(s) of the properties that there's likely to be a letter on its way, in the moody surname, and then go retrieve the letter, as and when it is received?

 

[Fermiboson]

Take care that train companies often demand proof of valid railcard even for purchases before the expiry date in cases like these. Be very careful to preserve any and all records you still have of it - the settlement figure could balloon quickly if you cannot provide this.

 

[notmyrealname]

And if the matter is settled out of court, would my friend end up with any kind of criminal record do you think?

The point of settling out of court is to avoid a criminal record, it avoids going to court in the first place.

Was that what you were asking?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I'm not sure we've seen any cases here of people being prosecuted for giving false details. So in all probability your friend will not have a problem for that - as long as the paperwork for travelling with an out of date railcard does get to him. As @Mcr Warrior suggests above, if possible he should try to round up any post that gets sent to the fake address that he first gave, as well as the more accurate name and address that he passed on later.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm not sure we've seen any cases here of people being prosecuted for giving false details. So in all probability your friend will not have a problem for that - as long as the paperwork for travelling with an out of date railcard does get to him. As @Mcr Warrior suggests above, if possible he should try to round up any post that gets sent to the fake address that he first gave, as well as the more accurate name and address that he passed on later.

Chiltern have a case on the forum just today: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/sjpn-for-buying-ticket-following-the-train-leaving.268931/ for initially giving false details.

 

[TrainUser1235]

Of course in addition to this Northern may issue one of their 'self styled' Fixed Penalty Notices - which for the OP's benefit is basically a demand for £100 in exchange for not taking your friend to court. So a version of the out of court settlement approach but I think it does not involve asking them if they will consider that option.

The real problem will be if the address correction does not get sorted out - not receiving the correspondence is the way for problems to get much more complex to solve.

Yeah that was my real concern. The money is a shame but not my worry, it's the court and criminal record. The inspector said to my friend he would email the company to correct the details so I greatly assume it will go to the correct address, perhaps if the letter doesn't turn up for a week, he could get in contact with northern rail to ask if it's on the way to his address?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jun 2024 ==

@TrainUser1235. Welcome to the forum. Quick question. Is this "friend of yours" able to inform the bona-fide occupant(s) of the properties that there's likely to be a letter on its way, in the moody surname, and then go retrieve the letter, as and when it is received?

Thanks! "He" probably could, but hopefully due to later giving the inspector the correct details an hour later, that shouldn't be a problem, should it?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jun 2024 ==

Take care that train companies often demand proof of valid railcard even for purchases before the expiry date in cases like these. Be very careful to preserve any and all records you still have of it - the settlement figure could balloon quickly if you cannot provide this.

Yes thank you that's a good shout, his railcard shows that it expired on 15th April, so he can screenshot that

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jun 2024 ==

And if the matter is settled out of court, would my friend end up with any kind of criminal record do you think?

The point of settling out of court is to avoid a criminal record, it avoids going to court in the first place.

Was that what you were asking?

Yes, thank you, that was my real concern. I read in a few places that you can "plead guilty" in an out of court settlement but that would still come up on your record

 

[notmyrealname]

You can only 'plead' in a court of law. Settling out of court with a train company is a civil matter.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Chiltern have a case on the forum just today: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/sjpn-for-buying-ticket-following-the-train-leaving.268931/ for initially giving false details.

I stand corrected - thank you.


On another point...

Yes, thank you, that was my real concern. I read in a few places that you can "plead guilty" in an out of court settlement but that would still come up on your record

You can only 'plead' in a court of law. Settling out of court with a train company is a civil matter.

There's room for confusion here which may be baffling you. The traditional way of cases being dealt with is for the defendant to - literally - appear in court, and plead 'guilty' or 'not guilty' in person to the magistrate. But there's now a process where if the prosecution (the railway) want and the defendant agrees as the defendant is going to plead guilty, then the whole thing can be done by post. This is known as the 'Single Justice Procedure' and it's started by the defendant being sent a 'Single Justice Procedure Notice' ('an SJPN').

So if someone is sent an SJPN and they plead guilty, they will be sent a letter telling them about what they have to pay. This will feel like 'settling out of court' because they haven't had to go to the court in person - but it's not. The charge has been made: the defendant has pleaded guilty: and the magistrate (the 'single justice' in the name) has set the penalty - just like doing it face to face in the courthouse.

If you really 'settle out of court' that means that you and the railway have come to a private agreement without involving the court at all. And it's that sort of settlement (what Northern might well call a 'Fixed Penalty Notice') that doesn't show up on your record.

 

[notmyrealname]

Thank you for the correction. I shouldn't have said 'in' a court of law.

 

[TrainUser1235]

I stand corrected - thank you.


On another point...



There's room for confusion here which may be baffling you. The traditional way of cases being dealt with is for the defendant to - literally - appear in court, and plead 'guilty' or 'not guilty' in person to the magistrate. But there's now a process where if the prosecution (the railway) want and the defendant agrees as the defendant is going to plead guilty, then the whole thing can be done by post. This is known as the 'Single Justice Procedure' and it's started by the defendant being sent a 'Single Justice Procedure Notice' ('an SJPN').

So if someone is sent an SJPN and they plead guilty, they will be sent a letter telling them about what they have to pay. This will feel like 'settling out of court' because they haven't had to go to the court in person - but it's not. The charge has been made: the defendant has pleaded guilty: and the magistrate (the 'single justice' in the name) has set the penalty - just like doing it face to face in the courthouse.

If you really 'settle out of court' that means that you and the railway have come to a private agreement without involving the court at all. And it's that sort of settlement (what Northern might well call a 'Fixed Penalty Notice') that doesn't show up on your record.

Thank you for the correction. I shouldn't have said 'in' a court of law.

Thank you guys, this is helpful. So essentially it's up to northern rail. In your experience, do you think my friend will be charged / prosecuted by northern rail? Or just be able to pay an out of court settlement? Providing he is fully cooperative, which he will be

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you guys, this is helpful. So essentially it's up to northern rail. In your experience, do you think my friend will be charged / prosecuted by northern rail? Or just be able to pay an out of court settlement? Providing he is fully cooperative, which he will be

They may decide to prosecute you for the simple matter of giving false details, although this is unlikely. What is more likely is that they will offer to settle with you out of court, although it is entirely up to them.

 

[TrainUser1235]

They may decide to prosecute you for the simple matter of giving false details, although this is unlikely. What is more likely is that they will offer to settle with you out of court, although it is entirely up to them.

Great, thank you! This helps put my mind at ease. I shall let you know of any updates!

 

[AndroidBango]

Great, thank you! This helps put my mind at ease. I shall let you know of any updates!

Your friend's mind at ease, I presume you mean.

 

[TrainUser1235]

Your friend's mind at ease, I presume you mean.

Hahaha! My friend and I are very close. It puts my mind at ease because I clearly worry about him! We're 2 peas in a pod!