Will Lincoln ever have better train services?

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There was quite a good article on Lincoln in the May 2011 issue of Modern Railways. Lincoln is said to be a good tourist destination, with its cathedral always being cited as a place to visit. It is said to have poor rail connections to many very large urban areas, with the exception of Sheffield.

Lincoln gets an occasional mention in different parts of this forum, so has anyone any ideas that they would like to see, such as direct connections to new destinations?

 

[trentside]

I believe there was a thread along the same lines quite recently. I agree that Lincoln is a 'hidden gem' for tourists. Sadly, I don't think any effort has ever been made to sell the city as a destination for overseas tourists, which considering the new hotels and general improvements to the tourist areas that have opened recently is a great shame.

In addition to the Sheffield service, there is also an hourly service to Nottingham and Leicester. Connections to London are via Newark Northgate or Peterborough, which on average have a two hourly service. Sadly, I believe the East Coast services which are to terminate at Newark reduce connection opportunities from Lincoln. There are (from tomorrow) two daily services to London, leaving at 0708 (EMT) and 0720 (EC) - returning in the evening. Sadly, EC decided not to bother with all day services, which would have provided better travelling opportunities to potential tourists.

Sunday services are dire - the first trains out don't depart until mid-afternoon.

 

[Yew]

Personally I think that IF/When the line east of newark gets upgraded, Then local services should be extended to go to lincoln. Early in the morning a robin hood line service goes to Nottingham, and then to lincoln. Now the robin hood line is only short (1 hour along it) so it would be a prime candidate to extend services to lincoln, and the other transport links are pretty poor, No busses, the roads arent that good. Also if they went via worksop, they would give a direct link to the ecml at retford. and reduce any extra strain on the single line part near nottingham
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I believe there was a thread along the same lines quite recently. I agree that Lincoln is a 'hidden gem' for tourists. Sadly, I don't think any effort has ever been made to sell the city as a destination for overseas tourists, which considering the new hotels and general improvements to the tourist areas that have opened recently is a great shame.

I saw some americans in lincoln yesterday, Also a direct service to skegness would help, as currently it is 2 hours away by rail from a place 1 hour away by car. if they took the connection out, and the line improvements around skeg are finished. they could get that down to one hour

 

[trentside]

Personally I think that IF/When the line east of newark gets upgraded, Then local services should be extended to go to lincoln. Early in the morning a robin hood line service goes to Nottingham, and then to lincoln. Now the robin hood line is only short (1 hour along it) so it would be a prime candidate to extend services to lincoln, and the other transport links are pretty poor, No busses, the roads arent that good. Also if they went via worksop, they would give a direct link to the ecml at retford. and reduce any extra strain on the single line part near nottingham

As I believe was discussed previously, the Newark flat crossing remains a major barrier to any increase in frequency along the Lincoln - Nottingham line. In the even a fly-over was ever constructed, I think it would be preferable to extend the XC Cardiff - Birmingham - Nottingham services onto Lincoln to improve connections to the West Midlands and South West. Though I agree that the Robin Hood Line should be extended to Retford to improve connections, especially considering the lengthy wait at Worksop required at present.

I saw some americans in lincoln yesterday, Also a direct service to skegness would help, as currently it is 2 hours away by rail from a place 1 hour away by car. if they took the connection out, and the line improvements around skeg are finished. they could get that down to one hour

I'm not sure Skegness is a big draw for overseas tourists to be honest. Lincoln does have an hourly direct bus service to Skegness with a 1hr 45min journey time. I think even the train would struggle to compete with this.

 

[ivanhoe]

The McNulty report will not make good news for Lincoln with its emphasis on cutting costs. Lincoln and indeed Lincolnshire as a whole needs to beat it's drum more rather than feel sorry for itself. That means becoming more savvy with the Political establishment and also putting more resources into tourism.

Lincoln itself is a lovely city , well worth visiting, but suffers from terrible transport links.It's down to the City's Leaders to do something about it.

 

[Yew]

As I believe was discussed previously, the Newark flat crossing remains a major barrier to any increase in frequency along the Lincoln - Nottingham line. In the even a fly-over was ever constructed, I think it would be preferable to extend the XC Cardiff - Birmingham - Nottingham services onto Lincoln to improve connections to the West Midlands and South West. Though I agree that the Robin Hood Line should be extended to Retford to improve connections, especially considering the lengthy wait at Worksop required at present.

If the RHL was extended up on the Lincoln => sheffield line, it wouldnt effect any extended west midland services along the other line. Maybe there is a service that terminates at sheffiled that could be a prime extension candidate?

 

[tbtc]

I believe there was a thread along the same lines quite recently

I remember that one tpp.

The main problems are

• Local services run by different operator to the ECML operators
• Only one shift at signal boxes on a Sunday, meaning nothing before lunchtime
• Flat crossing at Newark

...none of this has changed, and won't change for a long time either.

 

[YorkshireBear]

If the RHL was extended up on the Lincoln => sheffield line, it wouldnt effect any extended west midland services along the other line. Maybe there is a service that terminates at sheffiled that could be a prime extension candidate?

Alot of services already run to tag on, ie scunthorpe lincoln via sheffield. I personally think that if stock or paths ever becomes avaliable there should be a manchester sheffield express which runes semi fast to lincoln. There must be capcity on lincoln sheffield so just need improvements on hope valley or train splitting at sheffield. I would prefer split at sheffield a that would give a 4 or 6 car formation between sheffield and Manchester.

So maybe run a 4 car 158 from liverpool to sheffield, 1 portion to lincoln one to norwich. Now sheffield nottingham then loses its 4 car service. It already has 2 158's an hour so i would suggest add a third Service running every stop to nottingham using a 158 or 150, or extend the other leeds sheffield express, trying to make it as close to every 20 minutes as possible.

Now this is all dependant on stock i know, but maybe if more 172's are ordered and there is more electrification it may be possible.

Just an idea.

 

[scarby]

There was quite a good article on Lincoln in the May 2011 issue of Modern Railways. Lincoln is said to be a good tourist destination, with its cathedral always being cited as a place to visit.

From what I've seen modern rail operators just aren't interested in capitalising on the tourist trade.

Back in the day Scarborough used to have a host of direct summer services - King's Cross, Glasgow, Newcastle, Wakefield/Pontefract to name just a few - all long gone of course. The only remnant/revival is the EM summer Saturdays service from/to St Pancras.

Until quite recently the summer services also saw York-Scarborough frequency increased to half-hourly with a non-stop shuttle to relieve the hourly Liverpool/Manchester-Scarborough. That's also gone and the service is just the same in February as it is in August.

 

[Johnny Lewis]

From what I've seen modern rail operators just aren't interested in capitalising on the tourist trade.

Back in the day Scarborough used to have a host of direct summer services - King's Cross, Glasgow, Newcastle, Wakefield/Pontefract to name just a few - all long gone of course. The only remnant/revival is the EM summer Saturdays service from/to St Pancras.

Until quite recently the summer services also saw York-Scarborough frequency increased to half-hourly with a non-stop shuttle to relieve the hourly Liverpool/Manchester-Scarborough. That's also gone and the service is just the same in February as it is in August.

This isn't quite true. TPE still operate 3 additional non-stop trains between York and Scarborough on summer Saturdays, to relieve the Liverpool-Scarborough services. These depart from York at 09.31, 11.31 and 13.31, 10 minutes ahead of the service from Liverpool. The return trains depart at 10.30, 12.30 and 20.48.

There are also additional trains on summer Sundays between York and Scarborough to boost the two-hourly service that normally operates.

Full details are in TPE's online timetables, although the North Route Guide to services omits the departures from Scarborough to York on Saturdays. They ARE shown in the Scarborough mini timetable (No. 6).

 

[tbtc]

From what I've seen modern rail operators just aren't interested in capitalising on the tourist trade.

Back in the day Scarborough used to have a host of direct summer services - King's Cross, Glasgow, Newcastle, Wakefield/Pontefract to name just a few - all long gone of course. The only remnant/revival is the EM summer Saturdays service from/to St Pancras

BR had loads of spare stock sitting around that it could use on seaside specials.

Nowadays stock is used a lot more intensely, so there's little "spare". Credit to East Midland Trains for still running summer weekend "express" services to Skegness and Scarborough though

 

[ashworth]

Though I agree that the Robin Hood Line should be extended to Retford to improve connections, especially considering the lengthy wait at Worksop required at present.

Whilst I agree that Robin Hood Line services could be extended to Retford, I'm not convinced that is the best option. Most people from the RHL wanting to make a connection onto the ECML at Retford would be travelling north as going via Nottingham and Grantham would still be more convenient for southbound journeys. However, ECML service to/from Retford to the north are very sparse and would still mainly need an additional change of train at either Doncaster or York.

As I have said here before it is Sheffield that needs through trains from the Robin Hood Line which also currently has long waits for connections at Worksop. Mansfield and the North Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire communies along the RHL need a regular convenient service to Sheffield. This would be useful for connectional purposes to both the north and north west and also for work and leisure travel to/from Sheffield. Current journey times of almost 2 hours (1hr 51 min) from Mansfield to Sheffield, incuding a 40 minute wait at Worksop is not acceptable for a journey that is well under 1 hour by road. No wonder the northern half of the RHL is so lightly used.

 

[Yew]

BR had loads of spare stock sitting around that it could use on seaside specials.

Nowadays stock is used a lot more intensely, so there's little "spare". Credit to East Midland Trains for still running summer weekend "express" services to Skegness and Scarborough though

Didnt The seaside expresses used to be Locos and Mk2's? (maybe even Mk1's?)

Im suprised some heritage railways havent considered doing seaside specials to give some extra revenue..

 

[YorkshireBear]

As I have said here before it is Sheffield that needs through trains from the Robin Hood Line which also currently has long waits for connections at Worksop. Mansfield and the North Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire communies along the RHL need a regular convenient service to Sheffield. This would be useful for connectional purposes to both the north and north west and also for work and leisure travel to/from Sheffield. Current journey times of almost 2 hours (1hr 51 min) from Mansfield to Sheffield, incuding a 40 minute wait at Worksop is not acceptable for a journey that is well under 1 hour by road. No wonder the northern half of the RHL is so lightly used.

Not only that it gives the stations between worksop and sheffield a better local service to their nearest big city. How much extra stock would that need?

 

[Yew]

I would take a guess that you could do somthing useful with 2 or three extra units you could probably run one Mansfield to Lincoln, and one Mansfield => nottingham per hour, by extending the current RHL services from notts.

The reason i suggested this over longer services, is that It is the easiest, ie; most likely, to happen. as EMT are getting some extra 156's and also have some surplus units on the MML (They have some spare HST's right? Could they short form them to 5 carriage units, then run them Nottingham => Liverpool?)

 

[scarby]

Didnt The seaside expresses used to be Locos and Mk2's? (maybe even Mk1's?)

Im suprised some heritage railways havent considered doing seaside specials to give some extra revenue..

Yes they did.

I suppose the Scarborough Spa Express is a "seaside special" of sorts.
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This isn't quite true. TPE still operate 3 additional non-stop trains between York and Scarborough on summer Saturdays, to relieve the Liverpool-Scarborough services. These depart from York at 09.31, 11.31 and 13.31, 10 minutes ahead of the service from Liverpool. The return trains depart at 10.30, 12.30 and 20.48.

Thanks for the correction/info - I hadn't spotted those ones.

 

[TheWalrus]

Im guessing the answer to the ops question is it depends on how well the london service does? If its a success, they may look at introducing more.

 

[MCR247]

I would take a guess that you could do somthing useful with 2 or three extra units you could probably run one Mansfield to Lincoln, and one Mansfield => nottingham per hour, by extending the current RHL services from notts.

The reason i suggested this over longer services, is that It is the easiest, ie; most likely, to happen. as EMT are getting some extra 156's and also have some surplus units on the MML (They have some spare HST's right? Could they short form them to 5 carriage units, then run them Nottingham => Liverpool?)

EMT don't have spare local units to be throwing around, and they now have 1 less spare HST, which is useless for Liverpool - Norwich anyway. The 4 156s are coming so that EMT can solely have 158s on Liverpool - Norwich

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

.

The main problems are

• Local services run by different operator to the ECML operators
• Only one shift at signal boxes on a Sunday, meaning nothing before lunchtime
• Flat crossing at Newark

Is the second point capable of being resolved? Is this a long standing operational matter? Do the rail unions have a view on this matter?

With regard to the flat crossing at Newark, is it not feasible to bring this rather anarchistic railway track layout into the 21st century?

I remember a situation in Altrincham carrying on for years. There was a level crossing, fully gated, in the middle of the town centre, similar to those you find now in Chichester. This protected traffic from the high density electric commuter trains which were ran on a good frequency basis. Then, when the plans for the new town centre were carried out, the traffic delays caused by the level crossing were removed by a new modern road overbridge being constructed as part of the town centre improvements with connecting roads.

 

[Yew]

EMT don't have spare local units to be throwing around, and they now have 1 less spare HST, which is useless for Liverpool - Norwich anyway. The 4 156s are coming so that EMT can solely have 158s on Liverpool - Norwich

Do you know if they plan to refurbish the 156's?

 

[TheBigD]

Do you know if they plan to refurbish the 156's?

Yes. Each one will be done over 2 weeks at Neville Hill prior to entering service with EMT.

 

[Benno]

Yes. Each one will be done over 2 weeks at Neville Hill prior to entering service with EMT.

I'm sorry but they wont be refurbished prior to entering service. They will have a series of checks carried out (most likely at Etches Park) and enter service in Northern Blue (minus any branding). They will then be tagged on to the end of the current refurbishment programme and done after all the current EMT 156's are completed.

 

[tbtc]

Is the second point capable of being resolved? Is this a long standing operational matter? Do the rail unions have a view on this matter?

I'm not sure. I asked on another thread whether it was feasible for another box (one open round the clock) could take control over Lincolnshire lines during Sunday mornings, but I don't remember getting a reply from anyone (?)

With regard to the flat crossing at Newark, is it not feasible to bring this rather anarchistic railway track layout into the 21st century?

I've heard things about the ground being quite soft, for putting in a bridge in. It'd allow at least a couple of additional paths on the ECML if this happened, but allow the Nottingham - Lincoln service to go back to half hourly. I'm all for it. I'd also build a chord to allow Nottingham - Newark Castle - Retford - Doncaster services (potential for XC services to divert away from Sheffield?). In fact, if there was an overbridge, would there be space for a chord allowing direct services from Castle to Northgate (without reversal)?

I remember a situation in Altrincham carrying on for years. There was a level crossing, fully gated, in the middle of the town centre, similar to those you find now in Chichester. This protected traffic from the high density electric commuter trains which were ran on a good frequency basis. Then, when the plans for the new town centre were carried out, the traffic delays caused by the level crossing were removed by a new modern road overbridge being constructed as part of the town centre improvements with connecting roads.

Same as Broughty Ferry (certainly in the past) and definitely the same as Lincoln.

 

[Failed Unit]

To be honest Lincolnshire has already lost a big chance of improving it's service. It is criminal that the services were not recast to take advantage of this. Take the Joint line, small tweaks to the timetable could really have improved the connects at Peterborough and Doncaster for ECML and improving the viability of the line. Hopefully when the joint line is upgraded an hourly service from Peterborough - Lincoln could happen. Likewise Grimsby - Newark could have got recast to take advantage of the new timetable.

It is a sad reflection the rail industry can't work together to form decent connection.

The cities loss was really the Birmingham services, people from Lincoln would much rather go to derby and Birmingham than liecester stopping at every shack! Shame it cant be moved to XC. As modern railways states Swinderby is served by too many trains for it's usage. Even with the flat crossing a 153 doing Newark castle - Nottingham stopping a all shacks would at least improve Lincoln - Nottingham. Dont know if this could be done with EMTs fleet BR did it in 40 minutes in the 1980s. BR also alternated the fast service with the stopper, now too many trains stop at all shacks.

 

[Masbroughlad]

Get Lincoln on to XC. Extend the Cardiffs. And why not have some Lincoln - South Wests via Nottingham?

Also Airport - Lincoln via Sheffield - TPE or EMT

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Also Airport - Lincoln via Sheffield - TPE or EMT

They could make every OTHER Manchester Airport - Sheffield - Cleethorpes train on the South TPE network work as Manchester Airport - Sheffield - Lincoln.

This way Sheffield still retains all its services on that route. How would the time to Lincoln from Sheffield compare to the time from Cleethorpes to Sheffield, allowing for the fact that Class 185 units would run this service? If less, this would not cause any time scheduling or unit availability problems.

It would give people in the Lincoln region a direct link to Manchester Airport.

 

[Tomnick]

I'm not sure. I asked on another thread whether it was feasible for another box (one open round the clock) could take control over Lincolnshire lines during Sunday mornings, but I don't remember getting a reply from anyone (?)

No . Certainly the existing collection of largely mechanical signalling couldn't be controlled from elsewhere, and any resignalling would transfer full control elsewhere (no point providing a facility to work the whole lot from one point and then keeping the boxes open anyway!). The latter would probably solve this particular problem though.

 

[Masbroughlad]

If I remember, Cleethorpes Sheffield used to have trains two ways - one via Lincoln and one via Doncaster.

Why not do this with TPE Man Air to Cleethorpes now? Would sole lots of issues!

 

[Tomnick]

Not sure there was ever a regular service via Lincoln - the current limited Saturday service via Gainsborough and Brigg did at least run every weekday until not all that long ago.

 

[brompton rail]

They could make every OTHER Manchester Airport - Sheffield - Cleethorpes train on the South TPE network work as Manchester Airport - Sheffield - Lincoln.

This way Sheffield still retains all its services on that route. How would the time to Lincoln from Sheffield compare to the time from Cleethorpes to Sheffield, allowing for the fact that Class 185 units would run this service? If less, this would not cause any time scheduling or unit availability problems.

It would give people in the Lincoln region a direct link to Manchester Airport.

South Pennine TPE services are currently very well used east of Sheffiels, indeed on many 170 services a standing load between Sheffield, Meadowhall and Doncaster. Scunthorpe also generates significant business. So NO - TPE should stay as it is. A rehashed Northern Manchester - Sheffield skip stop service could combine with the Lincoln service but would not fulfil one of the requirements of SYPTE that most daytime Lincoln's should serve Meadowhall enabling the citizens of South Yorkshire to have a service to the shopping Mecca of Yorkshire (including Yellowbellys!)