Will I get fined ?

[Fluffyducky95]

Hi,
So yesterday I was travelling from Coulsdon south to Reigate. I was running late for the train so I quickly brought a ticket from the machine. As I was in a massive rush, I clicked the first option and got my tickets. The barriers wouldn’t accept my tickets, which I thought was odd, so I called for assistance and was let through the barrier after I showed the guard my ticket.
I get off at my connecting stop and realised I brought an off-peak ticket instead of an on-peak ticket, which is why I wasn’t let through the barrier at Coulsdon South.
I walk up to the ticket inspector at the station and explained what happened. The ticket inspector then took my details down, took my picture and asked me questions. Afterwards they let me pay the difference between the tickets and I continued my journey. She said I wasn’t going to be fined or have any criminal charges but I would receive a letter from them.
So now I am wondering what this letter would say? Am going to be fined for this incident?
I am pretty worried about this, so if anyone has gone through this situation, I would appreciate it.

 

[furlong]

Being asked to pay the difference was correct according to the contract you have when you travel. What the letter may do is explain the situation to you formally so that if you do it again you would find it difficult to argue that you were unaware that you had the wrong ticket, which might open you up to an attempt to prosecute you for deliberately not paying the correct fare.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi,
So yesterday I was travelling from Coulsdon south to Reigate. I was running late for the train so I quickly brought a ticket from the machine. As I was in a massive rush, I clicked the first option and got my tickets. The barriers wouldn’t accept my tickets, which I thought was odd, so I called for assistance and was let through the barrier after I showed the guard my ticket.
I get off at my connecting stop and realised I brought an off-peak ticket instead of an on-peak ticket, which is why I wasn’t let through the barrier at Coulsdon South.
I walk up to the ticket inspector at the station and explained what happened. The ticket inspector then took my details down, took my picture and asked me questions. Afterwards they let me pay the difference between the tickets and I continued my journey. She said I wasn’t going to be fined or have any criminal charges but I would receive a letter from them.
So now I am wondering what this letter would say? Am going to be fined for this incident?
I am pretty worried about this, so if anyone has gone through this situation, I would appreciate it.

Hard to predict what will happen next I think. Keep an eye on your post (assume they checked and got your address correct?). Use this forum for more advice when you hear from them.
Ticket barrier staff did not check your ticket carefully enough when you asked them to, as if they had done they would have sent you back to a ticket office to pay an excess fare before travel. But in the scenario you describe I suspect that is common enough (person in a hurry etc).
Keep a record in case you need it of the exact time you bought the ticket (which would be printed on it IIRC) or may be possible to see on your payment record perhaps. This at least will tell the railway which staff were in theory on barrier line duty and made the error. Might help mitigate any financial penalty/request they might ask of you perhaps.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

My view is that no further action should be taken by the train company. Section 9.5 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage states:

9.5. Where you are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an ‘off-peak’ or ‘superoff-peak’ Ticket) that is correctly dated but:

9.5.1. invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or

9.5.2. you are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or

9.5.3. you break your journey when you are not permitted to do so, you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

To be fair section 10 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage contradicts this and suggests a Penalty Fare can be charged.

10.1. Some Train Companies operate a Penalty Fares scheme. More information on Penalty Fare schemes and a list of the Train Companies operating such schemes can be found at www.nationalrail.co.uk/penaltyfare.

10.2. Train Companies are required to ensure that warning notices are clearly displayed on trains and stations where such schemes operate. Within the areas where such schemes operate, you may be charged a Penalty Fare if:

10.2.1. You travel on a train service without a Ticket or Permit to Travel; or

10.2.2. You travel in first class accommodation with a standard class Ticket; or

10.2.3. You travel on a train service at a time when your Ticket is not valid; or

10.2.4. You travel with a Train Company for which your Ticket is not valid; or

10.2.5. You do not have the necessary supporting document(s), where required (for example a valid Railcard or photocard).

The fact that you paid the difference in fare means that you have paid the correct fare and no further fare is due, and therefore a Penalty Fare cannot be due. There was no reason for your details to be taken or a photograph to be taken (photos isn't something I can remember hearing about on here before).

Please do let us know if you receive a letter from the train company as I'm sure members here will be more than happy to assist in proof reading your response.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Welcome to the forum!

My view is that no further action should be taken by the train company. Section 9.5 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage states:


To be fair section 10 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage contradicts this and suggests a Penalty Fare can be charged.

The fact that you paid the difference in fare means that you have paid the correct fare and no further fare is due, and therefore a Penalty Fare cannot be due. There was no reason for your details to be taken or a photograph to be taken (photos isn't something I can remember hearing about on here before).

Please do let us know if you receive a letter from the train company as I'm sure members here will be more than happy to assist in proof reading your response.

I'm not sure that taking the photo would be allowed without permission - or perhaps the enquirer thought you couldn't say no, and hence lack of protest was taken as permission?

And anyway, as has been said, if paying the extra regularised the situation, then there shouldn't have been any question of taking even a name and address in the first place.

 

[Wolfie]

I'm not sure that taking the photo would be allowed without permission - or perhaps the enquirer thought you couldn't say no, and hence lack of protest was taken as permission?

And anyway, as has been said, if paying the extra regularised the situation, then there shouldn't have been any question of taking even a name and address in the first place.

Indeed. I would want to know what happened to that photo. A SAR under GDPR might not be a bad plan.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi,
So yesterday I was travelling from Coulsdon south to Reigate. I was running late for the train so I quickly brought a ticket from the machine. As I was in a massive rush, I clicked the first option and got my tickets. The barriers wouldn’t accept my tickets, which I thought was odd, so I called for assistance and was let through the barrier after I showed the guard my ticket.
I get off at my connecting stop and realised I brought an off-peak ticket instead of an on-peak ticket, which is why I wasn’t let through the barrier at Coulsdon South.
I walk up to the ticket inspector at the station and explained what happened. The ticket inspector then took my details down, took my picture and asked me questions. Afterwards they let me pay the difference between the tickets and I continued my journey. She said I wasn’t going to be fined or have any criminal charges but I would receive a letter from them.
So now I am wondering what this letter would say? Am going to be fined for this incident?
I am pretty worried about this, so if anyone has gone through this situation, I would appreciate it.

You’ve paid your fare and the matter was discharged there and then.

What questions did she ask you? Did she place you under caution?

I would have refused her taking a picture and declined to answer all of her questions, including giving my details, and walked off. You were, by the officer’s own admission, not suspected of any offence and she therefore had no right to demand you answer her questions or give details once your excess fare was paid.

 

[Fluffyducky95]

Hi, thank you guys for all your replies.
I suppose I just to hang on until the letter comes and see what kind of situation I am in. The company is Govia railways so hopefully they don’t take two months to sent a letter.
To answer the questions on this thread:
The ticket inspector didn’t let me pay the difference until she asked me questions and took my photo.
The questions consisted off: do you have a valid ticket to travel with, which station did you come from and what is your destination, are you able to pay the full price ticket now? Did you intend on travelling on an invalid ticket. Afterwards I was taken to another ticket inspector so I could pay the price difference.
I don’t know why they took my photo because from what I saw, it didn’t happen to anyone else. I did object to my photo being taken by saying, “why are you taking my photo,” “please don’t” and “why are you treating me like a criminal when I just made a mistake.” Afterwards I felt very uncomfortable about the situation so my answers to the questions were a bit blunt (hopefully this doesn’t hurt my case). No she never said anything about being under cation, but maybe it is implied I am, I am not too sure. All she said after the questions was I wasn’t going to be fined or have criminal charges.
I feel very uneasy about my photo being taken but at the same time I just want this situation to go away. But I have learnt my lesson of always checking my tickets before I travel so I don’t end up in a situation like this again.

 

[najaB]

I don’t know why they took my photo because from what I saw, it didn’t happen to anyone else.

The "why" is because a lot of people claim that someone else used their details as a way to try and get out of trouble. But...

I did object to my photo being taken by saying, “why are you taking my photo,” “please don’t” and “why are you treating me like a criminal when I just made a mistake.”

You were under no obligation to allow them to take it and once you objected they should not have persisted. If I was in your situation I would be writing to them to remind them of their legal obligations with respect to personal data.

 

[Snow1964]

Probably part of the reason why you were allowed to pay difference and regularise the situation is the ticket issuing would be difficult to argue in court.

Unless I misread, you bought a ticket from a machine at your start station to your end station, and then got on next train for that route. However the ticket it sold you had restrictions that meant it couldn’t be used on next train.

A court wouldn’t look on this very favourably, unless all sorts of warning messages were clearly displayed, and the alternative to use on next train was also offered. Then a court would assume you did everything practical to buy a valid ticket, and could assume it was valid. The railway would struggle to explain why it took your money and sold you a dud (a ticket that couldn’t be used on next train)

It all goes back to a famous legal case heard by then Master of the Rolls (Lord Denning) regarding Shoe Lane car Park, about not being able to add conditions that were not clearly visible at the time you paid for ticket from a machine, because you are unable to then reject the additional terms (you cannot stick ticket back in machine and get a refund).

 

[Fluffyducky95]

Probably part of the reason why you were allowed to pay difference and regularise the situation is the ticket issuing would be difficult to argue in court.

Unless I misread, you bought a ticket from a machine at your start station to your end station, and then got on next train for that route. However the ticket it sold you had restrictions that meant it couldn’t be used on next train.

A court wouldn’t look on this very favourably, unless all sorts of warning messages were clearly displayed, and the alternative to use on next train was also offered. Then a court would assume you did everything practical to buy a valid ticket, and could assume it was valid. The railway would struggle to explain why it took your money and sold you a dud (a ticket that couldn’t be used on next train)

It all goes back to a famous legal case heard by then Master of the Rolls (Lord Denning) regarding Shoe Lane car Park, about not being able to add conditions that were not clearly visible at the time you paid for ticket from a machine, because you are unable to then reject the additional terms (you cannot stick ticket back in machine and get a refund).

Hi
I wasn’t aware the ticket was not valid for my journey as the guard let me through the barriers for the start of my journey. As I recall from memory, there were no signs on the ticket machine saying I had brought an off peak ticket. As I needed an on peak ticket, I am certain I would of not purchased the off peak one if I saw that it was off peak.
I hope that makes sense. Do you think it will go to court?

 

[Haywain]

As I recall from memory, there were no signs on the ticket machine saying I had brought an off peak ticket. As I needed an on peak ticket, I am certain I would of not purchased the off peak one if I saw that it was off peak.

It's difficult to imagine that a ticket machine allowed you to purchase a ticket without, at the minimum, showing that you were purchasing a ticket called an Off Peak single/return.

 

[Fluffyducky95]

It's difficult to imagine that a ticket machine allowed you to purchase a ticket without, at the minimum, showing that you were purchasing a ticket called an Off Peak single/return.

Hmmm I am not too sure what the machine said as I was in a rush. I probably rushed through it to get the ticket, which is unfortunate and stupid of me. Though I did show the guard my ticket and he let me through.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hmmm I am not too sure what the machine said as I was in a rush. I probably rushed through it to get the ticket, which is unfortunate and stupid of me. Though I did show the guard my ticket and he let me through.

Probably worth you going back to the machine as soon as you can at about the same time as the day in question and trying to replicate what happened / what the machine said - take pics on your phone of the screens shown. No need to do anything with them at this stage but handy to have depending on what contact they make with you next. I'm not v familiar with Govia's ticket machines (TVMs) myself so not sure what it says.
If you are buying close to the peak/off peak time change TVMs can offer both and there is good reason for doing that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2021 ==

The ticket inspector didn’t let me pay the difference until she asked me questions and took my photo.

Not heard of pics being taken before, but there is a logic to it - if you gave the name of another person (as we see cases wher people are victims of this) it makes it easy for that person to say - 'no that's not me - here's a copy of my passport with my photo'.

The questions consisted off: do you have a valid ticket to travel with, which station did you come from and what is your destination, are you able to pay the full price ticket now? Did you intend on travelling on an invalid ticket. Afterwards I was taken to another ticket inspector so I could pay the price difference.

These sound like fairly standard questions. I think some of them are designed to elicit responses that can 'criminalize' via an admission of guilt the respondent depending on the answers they give. eg 'did you intend on travelling with an invalid ticket' once you say 'yes' to that you have admitted guilt to a criminal offence which would make a subsequent conviction, were the railway to seek one, easier or very easy. 'Are you able to pay the full price now' if answered 'yes' can be used to show that you had funds to pay for a ticket but deliberately chose not to buy one etc etc. Happy to stand corrected if I am wrong.

I did object to my photo being taken by saying, “why are you taking my photo,” “please don’t” and

I have to say this is worrying, as you made it clear that you did not wish for that to be done and actively asked them not to do so.

“why are you treating me like a criminal when I just made a mistake.”

Sadly there are parts of the railway that seem to operate as if passengers are fare dodgers until proven innocent - which does little to help rebuild the customer base for a +ve travel experience point of view, but that's probably for another thread. The balance is that for some people in the UK, and IMHO a not insignificant number of them - paying fares does seem to be something not to do if it can be avoided (including well paid colleagues I have worked with in the past...)

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's difficult to imagine that a ticket machine allowed you to purchase a ticket without, at the minimum, showing that you were purchasing a ticket called an Off Peak single/return.

I've purchased a Super Off Peak Return which, probably due to an omission* (but hey, that's not my problem), is valid at any time on the route I intend to use it on on Friday. I have an itinerary and seat reservation so it's unquestionably valid.

This being the case, it's not reasonable to expect people to know when a given ticket is or isn't valid.

This is effectively confirmed by the NRCoT stating that the remedy is simply paying the difference to the ticket that should have been held. This alone means that no prosecution defended by a competent solicitor should succeed on a matter like this, surely?

* Most tickets that can be valid on XC have an added "please refer to restriction X" to implement a pre-0930 restriction on XC. This one doesn't, and all the other restrictions refer to going via London. And no I'm not saying what it is as I'd like the anomaly to stay

 

[Haywain]

This being the case, it's not reasonable to expect people to know when a given ticket is or isn't valid.

My point wasn't that people should necessarily know the validity of the ticket but should be advised of the description of the ticket. You wouldn't expect to have to guess what you are buying.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My point wasn't that people should necessarily know the validity of the ticket but should be advised of the description of the ticket. You wouldn't expect to have to guess what you are buying.

I've not come across a ticket on a TVM that didn't have its ticket type visible. Some also show the short restriction text, but that's often rather cryptic and sometimes plain wrong.

The problem is that "Off Peak Return" does not by default imply any time or break of journey restriction.

 

[Snow1964]

Hi
I wasn’t aware the ticket was not valid for my journey as the guard let me through the barriers for the start of my journey. As I recall from memory, there were no signs on the ticket machine saying I had brought an off peak ticket. As I needed an on peak ticket, I am certain I would of not purchased the off peak one if I saw that it was off peak.
I hope that makes sense. Do you think it will go to court?

This is where problems have occurred in the past.

It is not very customer friendly if first ticket offered (which Op has selected) is not valid on next train. It’s good if default choice is cheapest, but not sensible to issue it when it’s not valid.

Secondly being let through the barriers implies staff are accepting your ticket as valid. It shouldn’t be up to a customer to have to argue that some employees made mistakes, it would weaken any claim against you.

Not going to look great in court. Our machine sold a ticket that wasn’t valid, our staff let Op through implying ticket was accepted, but now we are not happy. I suspect a judge would say sort the first two.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely the NRCoT condition stating what will happen in this case (an excess) shows that this would not, with a competent solicitor at least, succeed in Court anyway? The NRCoT entry surely gives permission to travel and excess on board/at destination?

It is one of those things fixed by planner based TVMs, of course, much as these also have downsides.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2021 ==

It is not very customer friendly if first ticket offered (which Op has selected) is not valid on next train. It’s good if default choice is cheapest, but not sensible to issue it when it’s not valid.

Sometimes this has to happen if the last invalid train and first valid train are very close together, unless it's a planner based TVM.

 

[najaB]

Surely the NRCoT condition stating what will happen in this case (an excess) shows that this would not, with a competent solicitor at least, succeed in Court anyway?

Agreed. The fact that payment was taken for the difference in fare means that the matter is closed. The only way the TOC could even attempt a prosecution would be to refund the second payment.

 

[kristiang85]

Hmmm I am not too sure what the machine said as I was in a rush. I probably rushed through it to get the ticket, which is unfortunate and stupid of me. Though I did show the guard my ticket and he let me through.

Did it have a 'quick ticket' option on the front of the screen? I actively avoid this option now as it takes you straight to a certain type of ticket without giving you the options, and I've been stung by this in the past. Generally if you see the place where you are wanting to go and it asks you to pay, without checking whether you want off/on peak, you are more likely to make that mistake.

 

[Fluffyducky95]

Did it have a 'quick ticket' option on the front of the screen? I actively avoid this option now as it takes you straight to a certain type of ticket without giving you the options, and I've been stung by this in the past. Generally if you see the place where you are wanting to go and it asks you to pay, without checking whether you want off/on peak, you are more likely to make that mistake

I don’t remember seeing that option but I will go back to the ticket machine at the same time and check if I did that.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Every ticket machine I have used (esp. on Southern/Govia) has a message flash up stating in effect, in large print, that the ticket intended to be purchased cannot be used before a certain time (Mon-Fri). I can't remember the specifics now but will look next time I use one before 09.30. I think SouthEastern is the same. Annoyingly, I'm sure I've seen this message flash up on a weekend/bank holiday

 

[AlterEgo]

There is no offence here that the OP could reasonably be prosecuted for. You can't get prosecuted for travelling in the peak on an off peak ticket, nor can you be prosecuted for travelling via Milton Keynes when your ticket says via High Wycombe. The NRCoT outlines what happens in these situations, which is that the railway will charge you the difference to make good.

 

[reb0118]

I'm not sure that taking the photo would be allowed without permission - or perhaps the enquirer thought you couldn't say no, and hence lack of protest was taken as permission?

You have no expectation of privacy in a public place so no permission is required for someone to film you. This cuts both ways as a passenger can film staff members.

What I suspect has happened is that the member of staff has switched on their body worn CCTV camera & informed the OP of the same.

 

[najaB]

You have no expectation of privacy in a public place so no permission is required for someone to film you.

That is generally true, however as an organisation the TOC has certain obligations with respect to personal data.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is generally true, however as an organisation the TOC has certain obligations with respect to personal data.

How does this differ from CCTV?

 

[reb0118]

That is generally true, however as an organisation the TOC has certain obligations with respect to personal data.

I would suspect that an individual staff member is highly unlikely to be able to access the footage from a company issued BW CCTW though. But we digress.

 

[najaB]

How does this differ from CCTV?

This one comes up from time to time. CCTV typically runs constantly, capturing images of anyone who happens to be in the area, there is no intent to capture images of a specific person. That's not what's being described here.

As to the obligations on the organisation, they can collect and store personal data for one or more clearly-defined, lawful purposes. I wouldn't want to be the person having to defend taking and keeping photographs of persons who by the RPI's own words have committed no crime, after they have specifically requested that you not do so as either clearly defined or lawful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This one comes up from time to time. CCTV typically runs constantly, capturing images of anyone who happens to be in the area, there is no intent to capture images of a specific person. That's not what's being described here.

Body-worn CCTV tends to be turned on to deal with a specific individual at a specific time, that said. It's generally not left on all the time due to the privacy implications on the member of staff or other potential risks, e.g. if it were to accidentally record indecent images of a minor if left turned on and accidentally knocked sideways while using a urinal at the station, or if (as they record audio) it accidentally recorded a conversation between staff on a private matter.

As to the obligations on the organisation, they can collect and store personal data for one or more clearly-defined, lawful purposes. I wouldn't want to be the person having to defend taking and keeping photographs of persons who by the RPI's own words have committed no crime, after they have specifically requested that you not do so as either clearly defined or lawful.

Yes, true.