Will i be Prosecuted?

[mralexn]

Last month, I was on a massive trip, and got a train from York to Sheffield. I only had around 40 minutes in Sheffield and took a very last minute decision to travel to a place called Meadowhall interchange to clear a bit of that line,
I went to buy a ticket, but there was a huge que and only having 2 mins to get the train there, and 40 mins overall before i would be leaving to london, i decided to jump on the train, and buy a ticket on board, after all its only a 4 min journey.
I went to the conductor who told me he could not sell me a ticket, because he had not set up his machine yet, and basically told me, i should of bought my ticket at the station.
Arriving at meadowhall, around 5:20pm, there were East Midland Trains Revenue Protection staff there,
I asked the lady, if i could buy a return to sheffield from her, and explained i have just come from sheffield and the rest of my situation, i was fully willing to pay for the ticket, and i know in hignsight (i cant spell it!) lol, i should have just bought the ticket at sheffield.
Anyway, She took my details, and "cautioned" me, read me my rights etc,
Then she phoned up some control centre to make sure i was who i said i am,
she did not believe me at first when i said i was from Plymouth..
anyway, i got a letter through the post last week, saying nothing about the event, all it said was the evidence is being gavered and i could appeal if i wanted to. But well, For the sake of a £1.30 Ticket.. ,
my question is. What happens now?
will i just be sent a penalty fare? will i be taken to court and get a criminal record over this? i was fully willing to buy a ticket and at the time had around £600 worth of advance tickets for this trip on me. If anyone has any infomation it would be much appreciated.
(apologies for the terrible spelling :P )

 

[MidnightFlyer]

EMT revenue protection at Meadowhall? It's a Northern station without a penalty fares scheme!

 

[mralexn]

EMT revenue protection at Meadowhall? It's a Northern station without a penalty fares scheme!

Well the lady was in EMT uniform, and the letter i have got is from EMT

 

[lyesbkz]

EMT revenue protection at Meadowhall? It's a Northern station without a penalty fares scheme!

This has come up before.

 

[nedchester]

Last month, I was on a massive trip, and got a train from York to Sheffield. I only had around 40 minutes in Sheffield and took a very last minute decision to travel to a place called Meadowhall interchange to clear a bit of that line,
I went to buy a ticket, but there was a huge que and only having 2 mins to get the train there, and 40 mins overall before i would be leaving to london, i decided to jump on the train, and buy a ticket on board, after all its only a 4 min journey.
I went to the conductor who told me he could not sell me a ticket, because he had not set up his machine yet, and basically told me, i should of bought my ticket at the station.
Arriving at meadowhall, around 5:20pm, there were East Midland Trains Revenue Protection staff there,
I asked the lady, if i could buy a return to sheffield from her, and explained i have just come from sheffield and the rest of my situation, i was fully willing to pay for the ticket, and i know in hignsight (i cant spell it!) lol, i should have just bought the ticket at sheffield.
Anyway, She took my details, and "cautioned" me, read me my rights etc,
Then she phoned up some control centre to make sure i was who i said i am,
she did not believe me at first when i said i was from Plymouth..
anyway, i got a letter through the post last week, saying nothing about the event, all it said was the evidence is being gavered and i could appeal if i wanted to. But well, For the sake of a £1.30 Ticket.. ,
my question is. What happens now?
will i just be sent a penalty fare? will i be taken to court and get a criminal record over this? i was fully willing to buy a ticket and at the time had around £600 worth of advance tickets for this trip on me. If anyone has any infomation it would be much appreciated.
(apologies for the terrible spelling :P )

Sledgehammer to crack a nut situation.

You asked the RPI to buy a ticket and she should have sold you one. No way should this go to court. Another example of the railway trying to criminalise the non criminal. Easy target and all that.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

It would be helpful to read what your letter from EMT did say rather than what it did not say.

Most of your questions are covered very fully in responses to other people who have posted similar requests on here and you would do well to read through them; there have been several in very comparable circumstances. I'll try to answer your questions here, but in the reverse order:

You will only receive a Criminal Record if you are found Guilty of a Criminal Offence in a Court. You haven't told us what Offence is being investigated and you haven't told us what Evidence you gave in your Witness Statement to the Inspector, so its not possible to tell if a Criminal Offence is even a possibility. (The Byelaw Offences should not lead to a Criminal Record even if they are successfully prosecuted).

You will only be Summonsed to Appear in Court if a) you ignore the Correspondence, or b) if EMT are confident that they have enough Evidence to secure a Prosecution and you don't reach an agreement (of guilt, of innocence or a settlement in lieu of a decision) with them beforehand, or c) you wish the matter to be heard by a Court.

EMT are only likely to pursue you for a Claim to cover their costs (and if does go to Court, then there will be the cost of a Fine too) if a) you are unable to show that no Offence was committed or b) are unable to reach an agreement with them beforehand (which will presumably involve a settlement to cover their costs).

What happens next? Well I think you have a letter to write by way of reply to EMT's request for information. You should write a clear and accurate statement that is consistent with whatever is in your earlier Statement, that explains that you attempted to pay for travel and are still willing to pay for your travel, that explains (if this is true) that you have never done such a thing before, that you realise you have been very stupid, that you were in an unfamiliar area and unclear about the procedures, that you are very sorry for the inconvenience and that you promise never to be so foolish again; (but don't let me put words into you mouth if they're not the truth).

After that, I would hope that there will be an opportunity for you to make an offer of a settlement which will cover their Costs and which, if there is nothing else we need to know, which will, in probability, be accepted - which is where the matter ends.

I'm not sure where a 'Penalty Fare' comes into this, is a Penalty Fare mentioned in the letter from EMT?

However, I wouldn't do any of that if you are firstly willing to tell us what is in the letter and what is in your previous Statement. The value of the ticket is one of the least significant factors, the procedure is going to be the same whether it is £0:10p or £1,000:00

 

[mralexn]

Sledgehammer to crack a nut situation.

You asked the RPI to buy a ticket and she should have sold you one. No way should this go to court. Another example of the railway trying to criminalise the non criminal. Easy target and all that.

Yes exactly, I asked the Guard on the train, and the RPI officer,
I was more than willing to pay the £1.30 but i was not really given any choice,
I know i should have got a ticket at Sheffield but i would not have been able to make the trip, or could have missed my train back to London.

 

[scotsman]

This is a pretty appalling effort against someone who offered to buy a ticket. I'm not sure what you can do, since you did actually commit the offence

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Stupid question, ignore

 

[Mike395]

Can you penalty fared at a non-penalty fare station?!

No, but it is not a penalty fare that the OP has been given

 

[lyesbkz]

Can you penalty fared at a non-penalty fare station?!

The only mention of a penalty fare is what I think is a misunderstanding by the OP. They have not said they received a penalty fare, only asked "Will I be sent a penalty fare?" and my guess is that is a misunderstanding of the concept of a penalty fare.

 

[mralexn]

The letter says..

PROSECUTION DEPARTMENT
EAST MIDLAND TRAINS NOTTINGHAM NQ2 3AQ

On the Tuesday 6th December 2011. a person giving the name and above address was questioned by a member of rail staff about an incident that occurred whilst travelling on East Midland Trains services subsequently the matter has been reported to this office.

All the evidence is being considered as to whether legal proceedings are appropriate. if you consider that there are further mitigating factors that may influence any decision that may be made about this matter you are invited to respond, in writing only, within 14 days of the date of this letter. Please ensure that ALL details below are completed and returned to ensure our records are correct..

THIS IS NOT A REQUEST FOR PAYMENT

Asks for name address DOB Etc.

 

[nedchester]

This is a pretty appalling effort against someone who offered to buy a ticket. I'm not sure what you can do, since you did actually commit the offence

It's an easy hit for EMT RPIs. Bet you won't see them gripping on a Friday/Saturday night when all the drunks are out.

Still, I suppose it helps keep the prosecution stats up...........
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The letter says..

PROSECUTION DEPARTMENT
EAST MIDLAND TRAINS NOTTINGHAM NQ2 3AQ

On the Tuesday 6th December 2011. a person giving the name and above address was questioned by a member of rail staff about an incident that occurred whilst travelling on East Midland Trains services subsequently the matter has been reported to this office.

All the evidence is being considered as to whether legal proceedings are appropriate. if you consider that there are further mitigating factors that may influence any decision that may be made about this matter you are invited to respond, in writing only, within 14 days of the date of this letter. Please ensure that ALL details below are completed and returned to ensure our records are correct..

THIS IS NOT A REQUEST FOR PAYMENT

Asks for name address DOB Etc.

Well that's inaccurate as you didn't travel on an EMT service!!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

...
On the Tuesday 6th December 2011. a person giving the name and above address was questioned by a member of rail staff about an incident that occurred whilst travelling on East Midland Trains services subsequently the matter has been reported to this office.

Seeing as there are only 2-3tpd between Sheffield and Meadowhall, and none during the day, which is I take when you travelled, is this a bit of a flaw in the letter? Surely you can't be penalised if you used NT / TPE?

 

[mralexn]

It's an easy hit for EMT RPIs. Bet you won't see them gripping on a Friday/Saturday night when all the drunks are out.

Still, I suppose it helps keep the prosecution stats up...........
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Well that's inaccurate as you didn't travel on an EMT service!!

EXACTLY. do EMT even call there?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Well that letter makes it clear that EMT are still looking for information and so your duty is to do just that. They have not indicated any particular Offence (which I expected they would, but if not it suggests that they are keeping their choice open).

Explain the facts as I've suggested above, but makes sure it is consistent with your earlier Statement. Don't push the 'excuse' that you didn't have time to buy a ticket if that was your own fault, rather apologise for not having left enough time. If you had made an offer of payment to the Inspector then say so. If you genuinely wanted to pay for your journey beforehand, then say so. They will look for any admission that you passed any opportunity to pay for you ticket without taking it - if you do that, or agreed to that in your earlier Oral Statement, they'll go for a Prosecution (though you'll still have an opportunity to make a settlement).
If it really was a fault of the Railways that your connecting train was late or the only box office was closed etc., then say so (they will check your 'excuse' with the facts and should let the matter drop if they can confirm it).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Seeing as there are only 2-3tpd between Sheffield and Meadowhall, and none during the day, which is I take when you travelled, is this a bit of a flaw in the letter? Surely you can't be penalised if you used NT / TPE?

Doesn't that depend very much on what was said in the Oral Statement to the Inspector?
I have a suspicion that the OP has made a confession already, otherwise I'd think there is a better prospect of the Claim being dropped.
This wouldn't be the first time that one TOC's staff pursue a passenger for a RoRA Offence after travel on another's services where there is an admission.

 

[323235]

No EMT services call at Meadowhall as far as i'm aware. There used to be one which started at Barnsley but it got withdrawn in September 2008.

 

[tsr]

Seeing as there are only 2-3tpd between Sheffield and Meadowhall, and none during the day, which is I take when you travelled, is this a bit of a flaw in the letter? Surely you can't be penalised if you used NT / TPE?

I believe not: as far as I know, only the person who believes they have experienced a loss (in this case of a very small financial amount, but never mind) can attempt to seek compensation - how on earth can EMT consider prosecuting somebody, or taking any action, when any offence was not committed against them?

Unfortunately, it sounds like the OP did contravene the regulations and therefore use railway facilities without proper permission to travel, since the ticket was not purchased at the first available opportunity. I don't think that a queue at a ticket office is an example of mitigating circumstances. However, this is up to the TOC who operated the service in question to pursue.

Caveat: I would caution you not to rely on my advice for legal purposes. The above is merely my interpretation of the law and conditions concerning travel. Nonetheless, I hope you find what I have written useful. Any questions are welcomed.

 

[Old Timer]

Sledgehammer to crack a nut situation.

You asked the RPI to buy a ticket and she should have sold you one. No way should this go to court. Another example of the railway trying to criminalise the non criminal. Easy target and all that.

No not at all. The Conditions of Carriage and postyers in many cases are quite clear and explicit about buying a ticket before travelling. This is NOT BR anymore.

As you well know the situation as described is a classic fare evasion technique, so therefore the RPIs will have acted on that basis. If they do not then you can kiss goodbye to revenue protection and pay the costs in higher fares if you wish. If I had a £ for every person that arrived at destination with that excuse then I would not be working today.

In this particular case the person concerned has a form of defence however this will rely upon the ability to track down the Guard and obtain confirmation, although this will be lessened by the fact that they could have obtained a ticket before starting the journey. This is what the RPIs will have decided.

It is a shame that the clear message still does not appear to be reaching people that when it is possible to buy a ticket before travelling then they must do so, otherwise they are walking down a potentially hazardous route.

Any TOC can bring about a Prosecution for fare evasion even when it involves travel on or through another TOC under the various interworking agreements, otherwise the system would collapse.

 

[harz99]

And (correct me if I am wrong) as SHF is run by EMT, who I believe do have a service of sorts to MEA they are presumably due a portion of the ticket revenue, which is what they will be "protecting".

 

[DaveNewcastle]

In this particular case the person concerned has a form of defence however this will rely upon the ability to track down the Guard and obtain confirmation, although this will be lessened by the fact that they could have obtained a ticket before starting the journey.

I agree, and its a robust defence.
However, as the OP has explained that he is based in Plymouth and the personnel were in Sheffield then I'm going to assume that they are unable to locate the crew themselves, did not take the name of the Guard at the time and may not even be able to provide enough information to precisely identify them. Nevertheless, this is a component of the OP's first post that should be explained clearly in their Statement, recalling the Guard's words.

 

[WestCoast]

Which TOC operated the service between Sheffield and Meadowhall?

Northern, TPE and EMT have very different attitudes towards the 'buy before you board' policy.

In my opinion, it's partly due to a lack of consistency causing these problems. In Sheffield, you've even got the trams running between the City Centre and Meadowhall which are 'pay onboard only' services!

 

[yorkie]

my question is. What happens now?

You respond to their letter. Do you have any specific questions about that?

will i just be sent a penalty fare?

No, how can you be?

will i be taken to court and get a criminal record over this?

It depends on what your letter says (I have no idea!) and what they think of it. We cannot answer this question.

If anyone has any infomation it would be much appreciated.

What specific information?

Reading previous threads (there are a lot of them! including a SHF-MHS trip like yours) may help.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Which TOC operated the service between Sheffield and Meadowhall?

The OP has not said if it was TPE or Northern but I don't think it matters (unless anyone knows if one of the TOCs doesn't have an agreement for EMT to persecute/prosecute their customers?)

Northern, TPE and EMT have very different attitudes towards the 'buy before you board' policy.

True, but if they have an agreement with EMT and EMT catch the customer, then EMTs attitude will be the one that prevails. Which means the OP has to be careful because EMT are aggressive in their pursuit of anyone who does not have a valid ticket (including telling PRIV holders they should plan their journeys in advance!)

 

[142094]

Which TOC operated the service between Sheffield and Meadowhall?

Northern, TPE and EMT have very different attitudes towards the 'buy before you board' policy.

In my opinion, it's partly due to a lack of consistency causing these problems. In Sheffield, you've even got the trams running between the City Centre and Meadowhall which are 'pay onboard only' services!

Northern services between Sheffield and Meadowhall - from the top of my head the ones that call are Sheffield - Leeds, Sheffield - Huddersfield and Sheffield - York via Pontefract, and possibly the Leeds - Nottingham fasts.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

8-9tph Northern and 1tph TPE looking at a standard off-peak SHF-MHS timetable for a weekday.

 

[Old Timer]

I agree, and its a robust defence.
However, as the OP has explained that he is based in Plymouth and the personnel were in Sheffield then I'm going to assume that they are unable to locate the crew themselves, did not take the name of the Guard at the time and may not even be able to provide enough information to precisely identify them. Nevertheless, this is a component of the OP's first post that should be explained clearly in their Statement, recalling the Guard's words.

Yes, agreed. As long as the passenger can state the train he travelled on, then this should not be a problem.

I think the bigger issue here is how exactly does the Industry clearly get across the problem that people will persist in starting a journey without a ticket or without a correct ticket when in most cases there are notices warning about this.

 

[mralexn]

Which TOC operated the service between Sheffield and Meadowhall?

Northern, TPE and EMT have very different attitudes towards the 'buy before you board' policy.

In my opinion, it's partly due to a lack of consistency causing these problems. In Sheffield, you've even got the trams running between the City Centre and Meadowhall which are 'pay onboard only' services!

it was Northern Rail

 

[Max]

I think the bigger issue here is how exactly does the Industry clearly get across the problem that people will persist in starting a journey without a ticket or without a correct ticket when in most cases there are notices warning about this.

I would say the main problem is inconsistency. Passengers travelling between Sheffield and Meadowhall, for example, would generally experience a fairly laid back approach to buying tickets on board on Northern. Admittedly they are becoming tougher but Northern guards will generally be fine about buying on-board. The involvement of EMT creates confusion as their policy towards buying on board probably couldn't be much more different!

From experience, the queues at the ticket office at Sheffield can be absolutely shocking (probably well in excess of EMT's accepted level in their passenger charter). What were they like when you were planning on travelling mralexn? And how far in advance were you at the station before catching your train? This could be an additional line of defence if the queues were excessive.

 

[mralexn]

I would say the main problem is inconsistency. Passengers travelling between Sheffield and Meadowhall, for example, would generally experience a fairly laid back approach to buying tickets on board on Northern. Admittedly they are becoming tougher but Northern guards will generally be fine about buying on-board. The involvement of EMT creates confusion as their policy towards buying on board probably couldn't be much more different!

From experience, the queues at the ticket office at Sheffield can be absolutely shocking (probably well in excess of EMT's accepted level in their passenger charter). What were they like when you were planning on travelling mralexn? And how far in advance were you at the station before catching your train? This could be an additional line of defence if the queues were excessive.

I remember having about a 4 min connection from the Crosscountry train, to the Northern one, so not long, and well, i would say a good 15 / 20 min que, and they had the fast ticket machines, but only one of them was working, and there was a massive que there to.

 

[WestCoast]

it was Northern Rail

As Max says, Northern are usually quite flexible about where their passengers purchase tickets, with EMT being at the opposite end of the scale. TPE are probably somewhere in the middle of those two stances.

It's confusing for the passenger when those TOCs run alongside each other, but the message is always buy your ticket before boarding if there are facilities available.