Will HS2 be unfit for purpose and should Euston be a through station?

[FQTV]

I mean... yes that would be convenient, but I think it’s far too late to pull a Berlin and switch from several smaller termini to one massive one, since there’s no place to really put an entrance, and having an entrance to London’s central station be in the style of a tube station would be kinda underwhelming and people would have a hard time finding it.

Possibly the only time that there may have been an opportunity for this, in terms of surface land availability in recent years, would have been to use Battersea Power Station.

It could have been quite spectacular, but not in the least bit central, and hamstrung by dismal connections and nowhere near Crossrail.

 

[37424]

I think the overall plan of HS2 is right, if it tries to serve every town then it will just become crazy expensive, but the problem will then be managing expectation from some of the towns and services that don't get HS2, the fact that Crewe gets a HS2 service with an hours journey time, but Chester through trains will still be a 2 hour trundle on the old route, the fact that you may be able to get from Leeds to Birmingham in under an hour, but Leeds to the South Coast or South West wont be any quicker with a trundle down the old route unless you want to change trains and stations at Birmingham.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the overall plan of HS2 is right, if it tries to serve every town then it will just become crazy expensive, but the problem will then be managing expectation from some of the towns and services that don't get HS2, the fact that Crewe gets a HS2 service with an hours journey time, but Chester through trains will still be a 2 hour trundle on the old route, the fact that you may be able to get from Leeds to Birmingham in under an hour, but Leeds to the South Coast or South West wont be any quicker with a trundle down the old route unless you want to change trains and stations at Birmingham.

Chester passengers will be able to change at Crewe. It will be interesting to see what the distribution is between favouring speed (with the change) vs direct service (without). You could almost see it being the case that dropping the bitty North Wales-Euston service in favour of an hourly or even half-hourly Birmingham via Crewe and Stafford using the 80x (so still having an IC feel, and timed to connect with HS2 services) every hour being more useful, but it depends what people actually do and could get quite political. You could potentially even get clever with that and retain a direct service but via Birmingham, with a 5-car 80x from Holyhead joining another from Shrewsbury at Wolves and then running through to Euston as a 10-car calling at Intl, Cov, Rugby, MKC and WFJ, so providing even better connectivity at the sacrifice of a slightly longer journey, and using the path of the proposed Wolves terminator if they lined up.

 

[BayPaul]

I think the overall plan of HS2 is right, if it tries to serve every town then it will just become crazy expensive, but the problem will then be managing expectation from some of the towns and services that don't get HS2, the fact that Crewe gets a HS2 service with an hours journey time, but Chester through trains will still be a 2 hour trundle on the old route, the fact that you may be able to get from Leeds to Birmingham in under an hour, but Leeds to the South Coast or South West wont be any quicker with a trundle down the old route unless you want to change trains and stations at Birmingham.

I would have thought most people from Chester would just change at Crewe to be honest. The one major improvement to the scheme I would have liked to see would be to add a connection to the camp hill line just outside Curzon Street, to allow HS2 trains from Leeds and Manchester to reverse at Curzon Street and then head to the South West. That would have given a big benefit to the entire SW of England and South Wales from HS2. The connection looks tricky, but not impossible, and not massively expensive in the grand scheme of things. (in my mind the EMU would pick up / drop off a diesel loco when reversing in Curzon Street which would then push it on the non-electrified route south)

 

[CW2]

Just how is a "through Euston station" supposed to be constructed anyway.
The existing station is slightly below ground level.
Immediately to the south, running at 90 degrees to the main lines, you have the Hammersmith and City / Circle Lines.
A level down from that you've got the Victoria Line.
A further level or two below that you have two branches of the Northern Line.
So to extend Euston HS2 lines southward your choices are:
1) Build Euston HS2 in mid-air, then build a new viaduct through Central London; or
2) An intriguing level crossing arrangement on the Euston Road; or
3) An even more intriguing flat crossing with the Circle Line; or
4) Burrowing so deep you will be below the Northern Line; or
5) Magic and wishful thinking.

 

[37424]

I would have thought most people from Chester would just change at Crewe to be honest. The one major improvement to the scheme I would have liked to see would be to add a connection to the camp hill line just outside Curzon Street, to allow HS2 trains from Leeds and Manchester to reverse at Curzon Street and then head to the South West. That would have given a big benefit to the entire SW of England and South Wales from HS2. The connection looks tricky, but not impossible, and not massively expensive in the grand scheme of things. (in my mind the EMU would pick up / drop off a diesel loco when reversing in Curzon Street which would then push it on the non-electrified route south)

But then your adding cost and complexity not only to the infrastructure but also the rolling stock in requiring some form Bi-mode HS2 train or one capable being dragged by a Loco, or probably a more sensible solution commit to electrification from Birmingham to Bristol/Cardiff and run trains as far as Bristol and Cardiff with a handy change onto the conventional network at those points, but then the cost meter is going up and where do you draw the line?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But then your adding cost and complexity not only to the infrastructure but also the rolling stock in requiring some form Bi-mode HS2 train or one capable being dragged by a Loco, or probably a more sensible solution commit to electrification from Birmingham to Bristol/Cardiff and run trains as far as Bristol and Cardiff with a handy change onto the conventional network at those points, but then the cost meter is going up and where do you draw the line?

The only shame is that it won't directly serve New St for connections, but it will be near enough next to Moor St (XC could divert there, maybe?) and if the walking connection between the two is upgraded as a proper indoor facility with travelators, CCTV and security staff it won't feel quite as horrible as it does at the moment.

 

[BrianW]

The only shame is that it won't directly serve New St for connections, but it will be near enough next to Moor St (XC could divert there, maybe?) and if the walking connection between the two is upgraded as a proper indoor facility with travelators, CCTV and security staff it won't feel quite as horrible as it does at the moment.

Maybe something similar-ish to that proposed for Birmingham International?

HS2 reveals designs for Automated People Mover

New driver-less transport system will connect the Interchange Station with new stops at Birmingham Airport, Birmingham International Station, and the National Exhibition Centre (NEC).

www.gov.uk

Perhaps also for Euston-Kings Cross/ St Pancras/ International?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's probably overkill, it's not an awful lot further than going to 13/14 at Manchester Pic. A travelator would probably work better.

 

[LesF]

No demolitions? You’re not having a station there then? Or any escape shafts?

As I said, a platform UNDER Euston Road (and under Melton St). Multiple access/egress routes along the plat, leading into Euston concourse and the u/g stations.

 

[Ianno87]

As I said, a platform UNDER Euston Road (and under Melton St). Multiple access/egress routes along the plat, leading into Euston concourse and the u/g stations.

That will still need demolitions. Not least how on earth you keep the subsurface lines and Euston Road operational throughout.

 

[Bald Rick]

As I said, a platform UNDER Euston Road (and under Melton St). Multiple access/egress routes along the plat, leading into Euston concourse and the u/g stations.

How do you build it? There’s lots in the way.

Even a two platform station would need a footprint approx 500 m long by 50 metres wide. It wouldn’t just be under the Euston Road...

 

[yoyothehobo]

What is the maximum gradient HS2 trains can deal with and minimum curve radius? Would it even be possible if there was nothing in the way to get from Euston, under the Thames and to a new several platform layout deep enough beneath Waterloo?

 

[Ianno87]

What is the maximum gradient HS2 trains can deal with and minimum curve radius? Would it even be possible if there was nothing in the way to get from Euston, under the Thames and to a new several platform layout deep enough beneath Waterloo?

The fact that Waterloo is basically built on a swamp won't be particularly helpful.

 

[Hey 3]

The fact that Waterloo is basically built on a swamp won't be particularly helpful.

And so is South London built on a marsh which is why the London Underground doesn't go that far south

 

[yoyothehobo]

And so is South London built on a marsh which is why the London Underground doesn't go that far south

Incorrect, the reason for there being very little underground tunnels south of the Thames is the prevalence of sands and gravels as the geology as opposed to London Clay. London clay is just about the easiest thing in the world to tunnel through. The lambeth and thanet group sands, considerably less so.

 

[Bald Rick]

Incorrect, the reason for there being very little underground tunnels south of the Thames is the prevalence of sands and gravels as the geology as opposed to London Clay. London clay is just about the easiest thing in the world to tunnel through. The lambeth and thanet group sands, considerably less so.

And, also, various other railway (and tram) companies got there first.

 

[tbtc]

Just how is a "through Euston station" supposed to be constructed anyway.
The existing station is slightly below ground level.
Immediately to the south, running at 90 degrees to the main lines, you have the Hammersmith and City / Circle Lines.
A level down from that you've got the Victoria Line.
A further level or two below that you have two branches of the Northern Line.
So to extend Euston HS2 lines southward your choices are:
1) Build Euston HS2 in mid-air, then build a new viaduct through Central London; or
2) An intriguing level crossing arrangement on the Euston Road; or
3) An even more intriguing flat crossing with the Circle Line; or
4) Burrowing so deep you will be below the Northern Line; or
5) Magic and wishful thinking.

Forum tradition compels me to suggest "intelligent signals" as a solution to HS2 problems, since it traditionally get brought up as a magic bullet to solve any capacity difficulties

Maybe something similar-ish to that proposed for Birmingham International?

HS2 reveals designs for Automated People Mover

New driver-less transport system will connect the Interchange Station with new stops at Birmingham Airport, Birmingham International Station, and the National Exhibition Centre (NEC).

www.gov.uk

Perhaps also for Euston-Kings Cross/ St Pancras/ International?

I'm instinctively against these kind of micro-solutions - building something specialist just to link two nearby places seems quite expensive/ complicated - it's a shame that there's no other thing we could easily tie it into (e.g. extending the tram line an extra stop, but I don't think that'd be feasible given the way that the Metro now goes? forgive my knowledge of modern Birmingham)

 

[Bald Rick]

Forum tradition compels me to suggest "intelligent signals" as a solution to HS2 problems, since it traditionally get brought up as a magic bullet to solve any capacity difficulties

I see your “intelligent signals”, and raise you with “smart timetabling”.

e.g. extending the tram line an extra stop, but I don't think that'd be feasible given the way that the Metro now goes? forgive my knowledge of modern Birmingham)

The Metro is being extended to run right underneath the HS2 station at Curzon St, approximately in the middle of the platforms. Enabling works have started, and the line is currently expected to be open in 2023. It will almost certainly be quicker to walk to New St, but at least the option is there. Details here:

Birmingham Eastside Metro Extension – Midland Metro Alliance

metroalliance.co.uk

 

[tbtc]

I see your “intelligent signals”, and raise you with “smart timetabling”.

Damn, you've played this game before, haven't you... I fold!

The Metro is being extended to run right underneath the HS2 station at Curzon St, approximately in the middle of the platforms. Enabling works have started, and the line is currently expected to be open in 2023. It will almost certainly be quicker to walk to New St, but at least the option is there. Details here:

Birmingham Eastside Metro Extension – Midland Metro Alliance

metroalliance.co.uk

I didn't realise - thanks - I'd assumed that the extension towards Broad Street meant that the eastern route wasn't going to happen but great news that it is (and, looking at the map, it ticks the box of linking other places to the Birmingham Interchange stop too, rather than needing a separate moving walkway/ escalator/ cable car/ one of those steep travellators from the final round in ITV's Gladiators...)