Will Heathrow expansion mean more trains and lines?

[gsnedders]

My proposed legislation would take care of that.

How? By obliging airlines to agree to sell through tickets? By obliging ToC to be responsible for ongoing transport of passengers to airport stations?

 

[rebmcr]

How? By obliging airlines to agree to sell through tickets? By obliging ToC to be responsible for ongoing transport of passengers to airport stations?

Simplest would be obliging airlines to rebook on later services.

 

[fowler9]

Does the 500 serve Parkway? I think not.

Yeah it does. Has done for a short while. I could of course be hallucinating. I pass through South Parkway twice most days. Couldn't give you an exact date but it was a month or so back when the 86A seemed to get a slimmed down service (And at the same time a 24 hour service). Anyway, drifting off topic. Here is the current 500 bus timetable, admin, apologies and take it down if I can't share it on here. http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/trav...n Lennon Airport (from 4 September 2016).pdf

 

[Russ Butler]

Air Freight is carried either on main-deck boxes/pallets or lower-deck containers/pallets. The overall width of the largest standard box/pallet/container is 96 inches which is what an ISO container is. However, for load protection reasons I would expect a covered wagon to be needed. In addition, all units have corner locks over the baseplat to hold them down (i.e. not turnlocks as used on current container trains).

The real issue is that most air-freight is time-sensitive and is rarely a bulk flow, so rail is generally not the right solution for inward or outward airport flows. Indeed, I can think of no airport with a rail connection for that purpose.

Leipzig/Halle in Germany has a siding and loading area, adjacent to the DHL hub, which was unused in the 3 years I flew for DHL. (The hub at Leipzig was handling around 50 aircraft and 250,000 parcels a night). It could potentially be used for a high speed service towards Munich when the Berlin Munich high speed line is complete but this would be still to slow for DHL's requirements. In the 757 we would fly 26 tons of freight from Leipzig to Munich in around 50 mins airborne, often having to slow down to avoid landing before the end of the curfew at 5.30am. Rail is far to slow for operator's such as DHL who face big penalties for late delivery. The same would apply to freight being flown into Heathrow in the hold of passenger aircraft. It needs to be delivered quickly and to many different locations, rail is of course ideal for bulk tranport, not to moving 20 to 80 tons around at high speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGCxy1J4ntY

 

[urbophile]

There's a limit to how far away you can go without hurting business travellers. Obviously with such a sparse city such as London one has to really choose a starting point (Luton/Gatwick/Stansted); if one goes for the City, you're unlikely to get much further out than current airports, at least unless you provide plenty of capacity for (time-sensitive) short-haul flights for businessmen travelling for the day at some closer airport.

Doesn't it depend on the length of the flight? Surely some very long-haul flights could be moved to (e.g.) Manchester; the additional couple of hours (less with HS2) would be less significant compared to the overall journey time. And anyway, not everybody's journey originates or ends in London.

 

[fowler9]

Doesn't it depend on the length of the flight? Surely some very long-haul flights could be moved to (e.g.) Manchester; the additional couple of hours (less with HS2) would be less significant compared to the overall journey time. And anyway, not everybody's journey originates or ends in London.

There are already very long haul flights from Manchester such as Cathay to Hong Kong. The airlines from the Gulf would appear to have cornered much of the market from Manchester though. Apart from say South America there isn't really anywhere you can't get to easily from Manchester with a choice of airlines (Unless you get the shuttle to Heathrow and change there)

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The first thing the government should specify is that no connecting flight slots should be allowed at a distance of less than 400 kms, unless there are no rail connections possible from the nearest city (to the said airport) or island (e.g. Scilly Isles). Also, if rail can provide a 5 hour connection, then those slots should be ceded to long distance. Actually, if we stay in the EU, then that could be an EU agreement.

I expect there is a hole in this pro-environment suggestion, so please fill it for me, if need be.

Firstly, this is not the Soviet Union and we do not live in a command economy.

Secondly, although there is much legislation seeking to protect the rights, and even the freedoms, of individuals when it comes to businesses, apart from things like Health & Safety, our tradition is regulation with a light touch. This may become even more true post-Brexit.

Thirdly, "open skies". This allows any suitably certified airline based within the "open skies" area (basically EU but also Iceland, Norway and all non-EU countries in the Balkans) to fly between any pair of airports within the area at whatever frequencies and fares it likes subject to the airports being able to handle them.

Bottom line is the way to reduce short-haul flights is first to open a proper high-speed rail line and then allow market forces to take effect. This has already happened on London to both Paris and Brussels thanks to HS1/Channel Tunnel/LGV Nord and also to many French internal routes to/from Paris. But the limit is generally thought to be a rail journey time city to city of under two hours, though below two hours thirty minutes will start to have an effect. A rail time longer than that will likely still see a market for air travel sufficient to support regular flight schedules.

 

[The Ham]

I would suspect so much of the line would be in tunnel, that it would be electric only. A west facing station at Heathrow would open up an immense number of more convenient journeys to and from Heathrow. The near west, Maidenhead etc. would benefit if there was a local Connect style service.

I would suggest that if there were still any gaps in this route by the time the Western approach was opened, that it wouldn't be too long before they were infilled to allow electric traction, failing that it could be that the services are run with bimodal trains. Either way, not that difficult to overcome.
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Within that document there was talk of running the services semi fast, so as to miss out some the more minor stations on the services to Guildford and Basingstoke.

On the latter, however, there also be services from Basingstoke via Reading. As such there would like time advantage of missing the first few stations (I.e. Hook and Winchfield) as passengers would likely use the via Reading services from Basingstoke.

If you are then running 2tph to those stations to Heathrow (calling at Farnborough and Woking) then it wouldn't be too bad (at least off peak) for those minor stations to loose one their two trains per hour direct to London, as they would be gaining in service frequency. That would mean more people changing get to London, but there would be some direct service and also it could be marginally quicker than using the direct services.

The path for that could then be used by the Alton services, so as to provide 3tph along both routes from Woking outwards, admittedly there might need to be a further reworking to get fairly equal spacing between services. However, would then mean that any extra paths created y Crossrail 2 wouldn't need to serve those stations. It would also remove some of the turn back requirements at Basingstoke.

It could however mean that the level crossing Farnham needs sorting and additional doubling running down to Alton.

A few further thoughts, for I think that it is unlikely that by skipping some of the stations that you would able to speed up services enough to get better stock utilisation, unless you missed out most stations, which probably would be more costly due to reducing the desirability of the service to a larger market and/or needing to run other services to increase frequencies/capacity. The market for fast services between Basingstoke, Farnborough and Woking is well served and wouldn't grow by much compared with stopping services along that corridor.

There was talk in the document concerns due to disruption having knock on effects on other parts the network if trains ran Guildford/Basingstoke to Paddington via Woking and Heathrow. I would suggest that as long as there are plans to turn back trains early when there is disruption then this risk can be minimised, but would bring lots of benefits the rest of the time.

Another concern was turn backs at Basingstoke, my suggestion above had reduced that so there's only one additional one. However, by extending the Waterloo service to Salisbury (after electrification of the line from Basingstoke), then you retain only two services from the east which need to turn back. This also provide a more frequent service between Salisbury and Basingstoke as well as providing direct services between Stations in North Hampshire. Yes, no-one would use it as a direct service to Waterloo, but that doesn't really matter.

Taken together that could provide a significant improvement in frequencies of services on a number routes, without adding too many extra services. In doing so, a number of communities would benefit from Heathrow's expansion, even if they only see the rail improvements.

 

[InFoTan]

True although from Hong Kong station to the Airport is £10 return Heathrow express is £33 or something similar.

Your point is very valid, but the £10 fare is a day return (a normal return is £18). There are other discounts - e.g. groups travelling together can get up to 30% discount, you can get 50% discount to the airport with a taxi receipt, and I think you can even buy discounted tickets onboard Cathay Pacific flights.

Also, if you connect to the Airport Express from another MTR service (using an Octopus card) the MTR journey will be free.

 

[HowardGWR]

How? By obliging airlines to agree to sell through tickets? By obliging ToC to be responsible for ongoing transport of passengers to airport stations?

Yes (to those defined destinations).

 

[rebmcr]

Leipzig/Halle in Germany has a siding and loading area, adjacent to the DHL hub, which was unused in the 3 years I flew for DHL. (The hub at Leipzig was handling around 50 aircraft and 250,000 parcels a night). It could potentially be used for a high speed service towards Munich when the Berlin Munich high speed line is complete but this would be still to slow for DHL's requirements. In the 757 we would fly 26 tons of freight from Leipzig to Munich in around 50 mins airborne, often having to slow down to avoid landing before the end of the curfew at 5.30am. Rail is far to slow for operator's such as DHL who face big penalties for late delivery. The same would apply to freight being flown into Heathrow in the hold of passenger aircraft. It needs to be delivered quickly and to many different locations, rail is of course ideal for bulk tranport, not to moving 20 to 80 tons around at high speed.

This is all true for parcels, but actual freight in this discussion is a different category (even though airmail/parcels do use planes called freight aircraft).

 

[edwin_m]

Wouldn't it be more sensible to have the 'hub' in a less overcrowded part of the country and link it to the capital and elsewhere with high-speed trains? That sort of joined-up thinking might even begin to justify HS2.

In an ideal world the airport would be located alongside HS2 on one of its less-populated sections, with all trains stopping there and providing excellent links to the Midlands and North as well as London (South West would still have to change at Old Oak Common).

However this would have to be somewhere north of Aylesbury to avoid the Chilterns, where the topography is non-airport-friendly as well as being environmentally sensitive. I can't see the people who oppose HS2 in that area being any happier if it suddenly comes with an added airport. If you don't know what I mean then Google for Cublington, a previous attempt to locate the main London airport in this area.

 

[AM9]

In an ideal world the airport would be located alongside HS2 on one of its less-populated sections, with all trains stopping there and providing excellent links to the Midlands and North as well as London (South West would still have to change at Old Oak Common).

However this would have to be somewhere north of Aylesbury to avoid the Chilterns, where the topography is non-airport-friendly as well as being environmentally sensitive. I can't see the people who oppose HS2 in that area being any happier if it suddenly comes with an added airport. If you don't know what I mean then Google for Cublington, a previous attempt to locate the main London airport in this area.

The problem is that business interests see the airport as there for them alone and would find a journey to beyond Aylesbury 'bad for business'. That would just be an opinion to bear in mind except that we have a government that has no hesitation abandoning either environmental policies or penalising its electorate who have no choice but to suffer from the pollution that will rise in spite of vacuous promises from the legislators.

 

[The Ham]

The problem is that business interests see the airport as there for them alone and would find a journey to beyond Aylesbury 'bad for business'. That would just be an opinion to bear in mind except that we have a government that has no hesitation abandoning either environmental policies or penalising its electorate who have no choice but to suffer from the pollution that will rise in spite of vacuous promises from the legislators.

Which is why rail improvements for Heathrow should try and bring wide ranging benefits. At present a lot of people have little or no choice but to drive to Heathrow.

If that can change, which the southern and the western links provide, but can also improve rail services over a wider area (which not only improves things for those going to Heathrow but for those going to the area around Heathrow, try using public transport to get from Slough to Woking and your going to give up and drive).

Based on the southern link document and some of the thoughts I've had, you could end up with:
Woking to Guildford having:
- 4 tph Waterloo to Portsmouth
- 2 tph extension of the Woking stoppers
- 2 tph Heathrow to Guildford
Woking to Alton having
- 2 tph existing service
- 1 tph being a diverted Basingstoke stopper
Woking to Basingstoke (slows)
- 2 tph Heathrow to Basingstoke
- 1tph existing service (extended, see below)
Woking to Salisbury (slow)
- 1 tph extension of the Basingstoke stoppers

That would see a doubling of services between Guildford and Woking and a 50% increase of services between Woking and Alton and of the stopping services between Woking and Basingstoke. It also improves frequencies between Basingstoke and Salisbury (for some stations potentially doubling).

With so many "new" services there could be a case for looking at reopening (Oakley to the west of Basingstoke) or new (Southwood to the west of Farnborough) stations as there wouldn't be the same sort of time penalties issues if it were a new service that was running slower (especially one that wasn't used for commuting to central London).

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I assume that any new lines would be installed with OHLE, which leads to the question could it be the catalyst for more conversion from third rail given the limitations that can bring?

 

[Old Yard Dog]

The Western link to Heathrow should be used to provide direct connections between the airport and the whole of the country, not just the south, south-west and south Wales. Through services to Birmingham are an absolute minimum, extending to major cities in the north.

It is extremely difficult to get from the north-west to Heathrow by rail since Ken Livingstone took off the A1 bus from Euston. Lengthy peak hour restrictions and lack of luggage space on Virgin Trains exacerbate the problem. But do we really need dozens of flights a day between Heathrow and Manchester?

 

[coppercapped]

The Western link to Heathrow should be used to provide direct connections between the airport and the whole of the country, not just the south, south-west and south Wales. Through services to Birmingham are an absolute minimum, extending to major cities in the north.

It is extremely difficult to get from the north-west to Heathrow by rail since Ken Livingstone took off the A1 bus from Euston. Lengthy peak hour restrictions and lack of luggage space on Virgin Trains exacerbate the problem. But do we really need dozens of flights a day between Heathrow and Manchester?

To answer your last point first - Skyscanner shows that there are 57 flights from Manchester to London per week.

That is a dozen per day - not, by any stretch of the imagination, dozens per day.

It will be several years before the Western Access to Heathrow gets built - by which time HS2 may be well on its way to completion. If you want quick - then the answer is HS2 to Old Oak Common and HEx/Crossrail/whatever to the airport.

And why do you want to get to Heathrow from the 'northwest' anyway? Manchester already has a good range of continental and inter-continental flights. And if you can't get a direct one, change at Schiphol or Dubai.

 

[fowler9]

To answer your last point first - Skyscanner shows that there are 57 flights from Manchester to London per week.

That is a dozen per day - not, by any stretch of the imagination, dozens per day.

It will be several years before the Western Access to Heathrow gets built - by which time HS2 may be well on its way to completion. If you want quick - then the answer is HS2 to Old Oak Common and HEx/Crossrail/whatever to the airport.

And why do you want to get to Heathrow from the 'northwest' anyway? Manchester already has a good range of continental and inter-continental flights. And if you can't get a direct one, change at Schiphol or Dubai.

There are 8 direct flights tomorrow from Manchester to Heathrow which kind of tallies in with 57 per week. A bit short of a dozen a day.

Liverpool has a link to Manchester by train I would never consider flying from Heathrow when I have plenty of options from Manchester. Unless it was a hell of a lot cheaper from London (Including travel down there) I can't think of many places I can't get to from Manchester. I may need to change planes but getting to Heathrow is already expensive and involves a change.

 

[glbotu]

There are 8 direct flights tomorrow from Manchester to Heathrow which kind of tallies in with 57 per week. A bit short of a dozen a day.

Liverpool has a link to Manchester by train I would never consider flying from Heathrow when I have plenty of options from Manchester. Unless it was a hell of a lot cheaper from London (Including travel down there) I can't think of many places I can't get to from Manchester. I may need to change planes but getting to Heathrow is already expensive and involves a change.

It doesn't help that flight pricing is bizarre. As an example:

Newcastle - Chicago gets you there via Heathrow in some circumstances (via Schiphol otherwise). This is in fact cheaper than flying direct from Heathrow on the exact same flight (because of the nature of flight pricing). Not only that, but it can mean that it is in fact cheaper to get a train to Newcastle from London, before flying back. Not that anyone would do the latter, but it means that the demand for internal flights is automatically bumped up by the fact that connecting flights are cheaper than making your own way there.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

An additional problem is that some westbound Piccadilly Line trains terminate at Northfields. How crazy is that? People want to go to Heathrow airport, not Northfields. All westbound Piccadilly line trains should continue to Heathrow. It is also time to start running a service on the rail line that is part of national rail, oyster and the zonal system. People like me have no choice but to use the tube.

Even worse when you get on a train signed Heathrow then further along the announcement starts saying Northfields, you get tipped out at said location to then squeeze on the next already overcrowded train with you luggage :-x

 

[gsnedders]

Newcastle - Chicago gets you there via Heathrow in some circumstances (via Schiphol otherwise). This is in fact cheaper than flying direct from Heathrow on the exact same flight (because of the nature of flight pricing). Not only that, but it can mean that it is in fact cheaper to get a train to Newcastle from London, before flying back. Not that anyone would do the latter, but it means that the demand for internal flights is automatically bumped up by the fact that connecting flights are cheaper than making your own way there.

And for those confused as to why: most routes from Heathrow have relatively little competition and people are willing to pay a premium for direct flights, whereas from Newcastle they're competing with Paris, Amsterdam, and Copenhagen (and sort of Dublin, but that's now IAG own Aer Lingus so that's not really competition any more).

 

[The Ham]

With the new Western Approach and the possible Southern Approach to Heathrow it could well be that it is quicker to go to Old Oak Common to catch HS2 than it would be for much of those from the SWML area to head into Waterloo get across London and then get a train back out the other side.

Although only a fairly small improvement that could ease passenger loadings​ of trains into Waterloo. As an example, it could be close between going to Euston to get the LM service to Nuneaton from Woking rather than going to to Birmingham on HS2 and doubling back, especially if there are more frequent services between Birmingham and Nuneaton.

Depending on change times Basingstoke to Birmingham could be a close run thing compared to using XC to go direct. Which would also help with passenger loading of XC services (in addition to those going to Manchester or Leeds where XC would be significantly slower).

 

[Busaholic]

With the new Western Approach and the possible Southern Approach to Heathrow it could well be that it is quicker to go to Old Oak Common to catch HS2 than it would be for much of those from the SWML area to head into Waterloo get across London and then get a train back out the other side.

Although only a fairly small improvement that could ease passenger loadings​ of trains into Waterloo. As an example, it could be close between going to Euston to get the LM service to Nuneaton from Woking rather than going to to Birmingham on HS2 and doubling back, especially if there are more frequent services between Birmingham and Nuneaton.

Depending on change times Basingstoke to Birmingham could be a close run thing compared to using XC to go direct. Which would also help with passenger loading of XC services (in addition to those going to Manchester or Leeds where XC would be significantly slower).

Until we know fare levels it'd be impossible to predict how many passengers might change routes.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

I'll point out that if the train is delayed and one misses a flight as a result, one is almost certainly out of pocket, unless the train can be booked as a "flight" and the airline guarantees the connection, or if one somehow has a travel insurance policy that guarantees such connections (and I don't think I've ever seen one that does!)—so the cost of missing such a connection is far, far higher than the cost of missing a connection within the airport. (Local trains are actually far less of a risk here, as falling back to a taxi is almost always doable without costing much journey time, as the average speed of the train is so much lower.)

This is only true if the passenger has a through ticket with the same airline.

Many package tour companies operating from London airports do not offer through ticketing from regional airports. And regional flights tend to fall further and further behind schedule as the day progresses. I usually allow at least 5 hours to semi-guarantee a connection at LHR.

I once allowed 4.5 hours connecting time at LGW and still missed my flight to Windhoek. Fortunately I had "Missed international departure" insurance and the insurance company (Europ assistance) paid up (so I don't mind naming them, but they no longer exist; however I believe Columbus Direct offers similar cover).

 

[AndyW33]

This is only true if the passenger has a through ticket with the same airline.

Doesn't have to be the same airline at all, it just has to be a through ticket.
As an example, it is perfectly possible for a travel agent to issue a ticket starting on BA from Newcastle and changing at Heathrow to a Virgin Atlantic flight. This is despite the two airlines being bitter rivals for years. Once the ticket is issued, through-checked baggage applies, and the protections apply if the connection is missed due to late or cancelled first flight. You just won't find these tickets on BA or Virgin's websites, it does need a travel agent to issue them.
On the other hand on BA's website you will find tickets starting off at Newcastle and ending in Melbourne Australia, even though they don't fly to Melbourne. The last flight in the sequence is operated by Qantas, or Cathay Pacific, depending on the routing. Both these airlines are alliance partners of BA and so they actively co-operate in marketing flights together.

 

[IainG81]

I think Heathrow's big problem is the lines only turn towards Central London in Hayes if you have also a westerly turn then you generally open up Heathrow as an airport nationally accessable. The expanded Heathrow doesn't mean more real because trains can only travel along an already busy section of track.

 

[edwin_m]

There was a proposal in Modern Railways a couple of month back for a Heathrow Southern Railway, similar to the Airtrack proposal bit with a longer new alignment alongside the M25 to avoid the problem level crossings.

It was suggested that this could extend the four paths currently used by HEx to provide a Woking-Paddington service, which would allow journeys such as connecting the SWML to HS2 at Old Oak as well as access to Heathrow. This would attract more passengers in total than through-routeing HEx to the Western Access, since any non-Heathrow journeys by that route would be quicker by trains staying on GWML. So the proposal was to terminate the western access at Heathrow (ideally T123 with a reversing siding between the existing tunnel and the GWML, but maybe T4 if capacity didn't allow that).

However this proposal seems to have gone very quiet since then.

 

[thenorthern]

If there is a new Heathrow Airport rail link realistically it needs to be one that connects with the whole country and not just London rather like Birmingham International station which has direct rail links to most of the country.

At the end of the day HM Government can bang on about how Heathrow expansion helps the whole of the United Kingdom but if we can't get there by train I don't really think it does.

 

[coppercapped]

If there is a new Heathrow Airport rail link realistically it needs to be one that connects with the whole country and not just London rather like Birmingham International station which has direct rail links to most of the country.

At the end of the day HM Government can bang on about how Heathrow expansion helps the whole of the United Kingdom but if we can't get there by train I don't really think it does.

Heathrow works as a 'hub' airport so passengers making connections there can reach it by connecting flights from Manchester, Edinburgh and so on. It can also be reached by long distance coaches, private cars, Railair coaches and taxis. It is one of the most easily accessible sites in the country, rail service or not.

It is also not the only airport in the country with international connections and the necessity to reach Heathrow for international flights is decreasing by the year. In the immediate catchment area London City, Gatwick, Luton, Southampton, Bristol and Birmingham offer good alternatives.

Long distance rail connections to Heathrow are very unlikely as Heathrow is not situated directly on the GW main line unlike Birmingham and Gatwick airports which are sited directly on their main routes. This means that any long distance trains serving it will have a slower journey between their primary markets. The most likely service pattern, if the Western Approaches scheme goes ahead, is a frequent service from Oxford and Newbury, via Reading and Slough making connections for the longer distance services at Reading.

The arguments for adding another runway and terminal at Heathrow are (a) the extra capacity will enable additional destinations - both international and national - to be served, (b) service frequencies to be increased and (c) improving flight timekeeping by reducing the need to stack aircraft before a landing slot becomes available.

Railway enthusiasts might not be too happy with the thought of Heathrow serving national destinations such as Newquay, Leeds/Bradford, possibly Norwich again or more frequently...

 

[thenorthern]

Heathrow works as a 'hub' airport so passengers making connections there can reach it by connecting flights from Manchester, Edinburgh and so on. It can also be reached by long distance coaches, private cars, Railair coaches and taxis. It is one of the most easily accessible sites in the country, rail service or not.

It is also not the only airport in the country with international connections and the necessity to reach Heathrow for international flights is decreasing by the year. In the immediate catchment area London City, Gatwick, Luton, Southampton, Bristol and Birmingham offer good alternatives.

Long distance rail connections to Heathrow are very unlikely as Heathrow is not situated directly on the GW main line unlike Birmingham and Gatwick airports which are sited directly on their main routes. This means that any long distance trains serving it will have a slower journey between their primary markets. The most likely service pattern, if the Western Approaches scheme goes ahead, is a frequent service from Oxford and Newbury, via Reading and Slough making connections for the longer distance services at Reading.

The arguments for adding another runway and terminal at Heathrow are (a) the extra capacity will enable additional destinations - both international and national - to be served, (b) service frequencies to be increased and (c) improving flight timekeeping by reducing the need to stack aircraft before a landing slot becomes available.

Railway enthusiasts might not be too happy with the thought of Heathrow serving national destinations such as Newquay, Leeds/Bradford, possibly Norwich again or more frequently...

Norwich to Heathrow has been discussed but I don't think it will ever be financially viable.

The thing is though its unlikely that there will ever be a Birmingham/Bristol/Coventry/East Midlands/Southampton/Oxford flight to Heathrow to make connections but living in the West Midlands I fail to see how when the Government mentions that it will benefit everyone when from Birmingham New Street I can't get a direct train to the airport.

 

[infobleep]

Until we know fare levels it'd be impossible to predict how many passengers might change routes.

We'd also need to know the permitted routes, if the same travel framework for permitted routes existed once this was built.

Just because a new route is faster, doesn't automatically mean they will offer fares or allow passengers to make use of it between stations.