Will GBR have a charter or excursion unit?

[Masbroughlad]

Do people think GBR will have a charter or excursion unit?

Commuter trains deployed at weekends? Hybrid Intercity trains to the coastal resorts? Or will trains be used to soak up weekend demand?

Wonder if we'd ever see a GWR 80x train full of daytrippers in Blackpool? A LNER train in Torquay? A string of Northern DMUs in Llandudno maybe?

I guess we don't even know how fleets of trains will be allocated under the new structures or what profit centres will be.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Ashley Hill]

In the current market would there be a demand for a GWR IET to Blackpool or other permutations? Whilst Intercity had their charter unit I cannot see GBR running railtours. Perhaps if the Merrymaker market could be revived but I expect it would be left for charter operators to do.

 

[Zomboid]

Short answer: no.

Longer answer: at least not like that, they'll probably keep the function that NR has to handle charters and stuff, but for a start GBR won't have loads of spare stock sitting around to run their own charters.

 

[brad465]

If GBR had a charter unit while several parts of the network have ageing overcrowded DMUs waiting to be replaced, many passengers will question GBR's priorities.

 

[Farnborough]

Short answer: no-one knows... GBR doesn't exist yet.

 

[The Planner]

No. Charters are a private enterprise, they will carry on as freight will on a commercial basis.

 

[Snow1964]

Pure charters (as in available for private hire), very unlikely

A smallish central pool of multi purpose trains (ie could do commuter services Mon-Thur, and regional seaside trains Fri-Sun) is more likely. Although likely to take a while to build up such a fleet.

Of course the GBR legislation could force the original LeaseCos to hand over some older trains (fair value reversal of some they got for free from BR), but personally I can't see this happening either. What might happen if the legislators are savvy is include clauses that GBR has option (first refusal) to take on surplus trains, rather than automatic storage or scrapping

 

[mrcheek]

No.

The charter/Merrymaker market was dying long before privatisation. No way it will come back.

 

[The exile]

What I think would be useful (once shortages of both stock and crew are sorted out - if ever) is a fleet of go (almost) everywhere trains to cover short term seasonal demand. No single geographical area could justify it, but coordinated over the country there must be enough short term strengthening /relief work to employ quite a few sets. Moving large quantities of people is what the railway is good at so it needs to be able to step up when there are major events.

 

[43096]

Of course the GBR legislation could force the original LeaseCos to hand over some older trains (fair value reversal of some they got for free from BR)

Not this again. The ROSCO owners did not buy individual trains from BR, they bought a business with assets and liabilities and paid a price for that business.

 

[Brubulus]

What I think would be useful (once shortages of both stock and crew are sorted out - if ever) is a fleet of go (almost) everywhere trains to cover short term seasonal demand. No single geographical area could justify it, but coordinated over the country there must be enough short term strengthening /relief work to employ quite a few sets. Moving large quantities of people is what the railway is good at so it needs to be able to step up when there are major events.

Peak fleet requirements leave a substantial number of idle trains at all other times. (This should be resolved by using fully depreciated older stock at these times until they become uneconomical to maintain) These older trains should then also be able to be used for special events etc, especially once the timetable can be covered without overtime and overtime can be used for where it is needed such as special events and circumstances.

 

[JonathanH]

Peak fleet requirements leave a substantial number of idle trains at all other times. (This should be resolved by using fully depreciated older stock at these times until they become uneconomical to maintain) These older trains should then also be able to be used for special events etc, especially once the timetable can be covered without overtime and overtime can be used for where it is needed such as special events and circumstances.

The relevant trains needed for the peak traffic are often electric units that are limited in their scope of use to electrified lines. There are already plenty of electric commuter units which sit spare without the need for holding onto old stock. Less so for self-powered stock.

Are 158s the kind of 'fully depreciated older stock' you are thinking of? If not, where will this emerge from on a unit railway?

When is the timetable going to be covered without overtime? What is the change in approach which is going to lead to that? It has been noted many times that the current approach is cheaper for the railway and more remunative for its employees.

 

[Brubulus]

The relevant trains needed for the peak traffic are often electric units that are limited in their scope of use to electrified lines. There are already plenty of electric commuter units which sit spare without the need for holding onto old stock. Less so for self-powered stock.

Are 158s the kind of 'fully depreciated older stock' you are thinking of? If not, where will this emerge from on a unit railway?

When is the timetable going to be covered without overtime? What is the change in approach which is going to lead to that? It has been noted many times that the current approach is cheaper for the railway and more remunative for its employees.

The current approaches regarding rolling stock, infrastructure and personnel management make such a system impossible, especially on non-electrified lines, though I do think the rolling stock aspect could be done, as the use of end of life trains as peak extras would likely reduce costs for the railway.

On personnel, if a more flexible railway is to exist, there will need to be change, but the current system is probably more efficient for all involved, even though it's at the cost of flexibility. A personnel system that is cheap, flexible and provides high pay to staff is impossible, only 2 can be achieved at any given time.

 

[JonathanH]

The current approaches regarding rolling stock, infrastructure and personnel management make such a system impossible, especially on non-electrified lines, though I do think the rolling stock aspect could be done, as the use of end of life trains as peak extras would likely reduce costs for the railway.

Such an approach might have seen 30 Renatus 321s remain in service on Greater Anglia with a smaller 720 fleet, but I think that raises its own questions. When do those 321s get replaced, and what with? If it just more 720s then they might as well be procured in one go.

As it is, with the sprinter replacement plan, the first units may go five years before the last. How long does this 'peak extra' fleet remain in service?

 

[JamesT]

With this suggestion of a fleet that moves around for seasonal demand, is there actually significant regional variation in demand patterns? Such that if one place has a peak another has such a trough that it’s worth sending units from one to the other?

 

[JonathanH]

With this suggestion of a fleet that moves around for seasonal demand, is there actually significant regional variation in demand patterns? Such that if one place has a peak another has such a trough that it’s worth sending units from one to the other?

I think that people are thinking of flows like Cheltenham Festival, Glastonbury, Rugby and other 'occasions' which result in a large passenger flow. GWR moves its trains around to cope with these passenger peaks, but an operator like CrossCountry doesn't have the same flexibility.

Some of it is harkening back to when the railway would run loads of extra summer trains to holiday destinations from all across the country or for football matches which is a thing of the past. Whether that is a lucrative market is unclear. It arguably isn't, as it was falling away even in BR days.

Across the network, there are other 'occasions' that the railway copes well with to the extent they go unnoticed, for example the extra stops at Northumberland Park by Greater Anglia associated with events at the Tottenham Hotspur stadium, or London Overground running 8 instead of 4 car trains on its route via Seven Sisters. The challenge tends to be when the event is on an unelectrified route.

 

[Ashley Hill]

I recently watched a video showing a DMU stopping for passengers at Winslow for a shopping excursion to Spalding. I don’t think any current TOC would have neither the stock, local initiative nor any interest in running such a train,let alone the future GBR.

 

[Iskra]

I recently watched a video showing a DMU stopping for passengers at Winslow for a shopping excursion to Spalding. I don’t think any current TOC would have neither the stock, local initiative nor any interest in running such a train,let alone the future GBR.

I think you are exaggerating a little: some TOC’s have more initiative than others. LNER ran a HST farewell. Merseyrail have worked with BLS multiple times when running down their old fleet, I think one of the Southern TOC’s did the same with their departing EMU’s. Scotrail run some annual, but very dull ad hoc workings for small events. This sort of thing will continue to happen- look at all the things that the railway has done for the Greatest Gathering at substantial effort no doubt. I think Northern or EMR will do something interesting when their 158’s go.

I don’t see a charter unit being formed though, but I expect local depots and management will organise things from time to time or work with existing railtour operators to do so.

 

[JonathanH]

I recently watched a video showing a DMU stopping for passengers at Winslow for a shopping excursion to Spalding. I don’t think any current TOC would have neither the stock, local initiative nor any interest in running such a train,let alone the future GBR.

Yes, I was going to mention Spalding Flower Parade in my previous post as an example of an event the railway used to run dedicated trains to from across the country, but simply wouldn't or couldn't now, even though they may still create a peak in demand. The railway can't serve markets that don't really now exist.

I was passing through Chester-le-Street yesterday morning, and saw people at a bus stop waiting their organised coach to Manchester for the football match with Sunderland. It really isn't an issue at all that people go by coach instead of train for this.

 

[KevinBrum12]

A charter and excursion unit is not going to happen. If the regions of GBR want to run extra trains for an event or a relief I expect they would be required to run them using the resources they have. Unlike BR, the privatised operators also no longer have the go anywhere locomotives or LHCS that BR had to run reliefs or extras and drivers in most of the TOC's do not have the traction knowledge for modern locomotives.

 

[skyhigh]

I think you are exaggerating a little: some TOC’s have more initiative than others. LNER ran a HST farewell. Merseyrail have worked with BLS multiple times when running down their old fleet, I think one of the Southern TOC’s did the same with their departing EMU’s. Scotrail run some annual, but very dull ad hoc workings for small events. This sort of thing will continue to happen- look at all the things that the railway has done for the Greatest Gathering at substantial effort no doubt. I think Northern or EMR will do something interesting when their 158’s go.

Northern were planning a tour for the withdrawal of Pacers - unfortunately Covid killed that idea off.

I'd fully expect a 15x tour when they are eventually withdrawn.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Pure charters (as in available for private hire), very unlikely.

A smallish central pool of multi purpose trains (ie could do commuter services Mon-Thur, and regional seaside trains Fri-Sun) is more likely. Although likely to take a while to build up such a fleet.

The chances of either of those things happening are exactly the same. None whatsoever.

 

[Snow1964]

The chances of either of those things happening are exactly the same. None whatsoever.

It is supposed to be GBR covering 100% of annual traffic
not GBR excluding seasonal flows and busy events.

G is supposed to be Great, not the lesser category of good

 

[Bertie the bus]

It is supposed to be GBR covering 100% of annual traffic
not GBR excluding seasonal flows and busy events.

G is supposed to be Great, not the lesser category of good

I really don't understand what that means but nobody has said GBR will attempt to cater for every single person in the country who has ever contemplated travelling by train.

Some people think because we are going back to a (largely) unified, publicly owned railway the mentality will also revert to the that of the 1970s or 1980s. It won't. Things have moved on and in particular many services around major cities are much busier these days on a Saturday than a weekday so there simply isn't the rolling stock available to to run bucket and spade specials.

 

[Snow1964]

Some people think because we are going back to a (largely) unified, publicly owned railway the mentality will also revert to the that of the 1970s or 1980s. It won't. Things have moved on and in particular many services around major cities are much busier these days on a Saturday than a weekday so there simply isn't the rolling stock available to to run bucket and spade specials.

If Saturday is the busiest day, then why would GBR not provide enough stock for busiest time.

It doesn't make any sense to run extra peak trains Monday-Thursday (say 1 hour am and pm x 4 days) = 8 hours, then not consider 10+ hours busy times at weekends as the peak requirement

 

[BlueLeanie]

I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that GBR will have a charter unit.

Football teams, Businesses, Political Parties, Schools, even the King & Queen will be able to reserve from a single coach within a public service to a full train that's not in public use.

However, talk of "spare" stock being used to operate interesting diagrams are unlikely to happen. Just board a service on a Saturday or Sunday, and you'll be hard pressed to find a seat, there isn't enough stock to accommodate paying walk-up customers on standard diagrams let alone send units for day trips to the coast. Back in BR days weekend services were quiet, especially on a Sunday. You might find your local station had a Cinderella service with the first service operating after 10am, that certainly isn't the case nowadays.

 

[JonathanH]

If Saturday is the busiest day, then why would GBR not provide enough stock for busiest time.

Expect fares to rise if Saturday is the factor dictating train fleet sizes.

 

[Bertie the bus]

If Saturday is the busiest day, then why would GBR not provide enough stock for busiest time.

It doesn't make any sense to run extra peak trains Monday-Thursday (say 1 hour am and pm x 4 days) = 8 hours, then not consider 10+ hours busy times at weekends as the peak requirement

They do mostly have enough stock for the busiest times. Saturday timetables are almost identical to weekday ones and for much of the day services on weekdays are virtually empty, whereas on a Saturday they can have fairly healthy loadings.

And the reason there isn't enough stock to satisfy people like you is because the country has other priorities like health and education, so the government isn't going to sanction trains to carry Mr & Mrs Smith + nippers to the seaside a couple of times per year.

 

[mrcheek]

It is supposed to be GBR covering 100% of annual traffic
not GBR excluding seasonal flows and busy events.

G is supposed to be Great, not the lesser category of good

GBR isnt about providing a better service, despite what people might claim.

It is being brough in because many people believe (completely incorrectly), that it will make running the railways cheaper to run, and thus bring fares down.

Some people are going to be in for a shock as the service declines, and fares continue to rise

 

[JonathanH]

It is being brough in because many people believe (completely incorrectly), that it will make running the railways cheaper to run, and thus bring fares down.

Nothing about fares coming down, more about government seeing it as a way of reducing subsidy. As you say, all indications are that fares will be reformed in ways (eg PAYG, advances) that were already the direction the railway was heading towards.