Will First Class travel shrink more in the future?

[38Cto15E]

This week I have used Avanti West Coast for Stafford-Glasgow Central and Glasgow Central to Preston in Standard class, although I used to travel First class I now find Standard to be excellent, with Coach D having increased leg room for lack of mobility, a large toilet and also next to the Cafe Bar. Obviously your fellow passengers have a big influence whether your jurney is enjoyable or not.
For my Blackpool North to Nuneaton journey I travelled First Class, throughout the journey First Class was very sparsely populated, I was in Coach J and the First CSA did not show until Wigan though I believe they were on the train from BPN. The service turned out quite good but the offerings were so so.
Now the main part of my thoughts, the train was probably carrying fresh air in First for it's Up and Down trips from Euston to Blackpool, although I never looked in to Standard Premier.So, just keep First Class on the Glasgow and Edinburghs and just have Standard Premier on the Manchester/Liverpool /Birmingham/North Wales journeys with limited complimentaries. Many of the TOC's who formerly offered great First Class offerings have now diluted them so much is it worth bothering any more, what do members think?

 

[stevieinselby]

There was a period a few years ago where a lot of intercity operators had really good deals on First Class, if you timed it right you could get it for little more than standard and so it was worth paying a bit extra for even if it wasn't a top notch service. These days those cheaper First Class fares are very hard to find and you seem to be paying a higher premium – and especially at weekends the service doesn't justify the extra cost to me. But I'm also well aware that I am not the kind of person to splash out on a lot of treats for myself and so I'm probably not the main target audience for First Class.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I did wonder if SP was an experiment to see if First Class without service at a lower price would sell better - but it does seem to be thriving in its own right.

 

[Buzby]

The Scottish press has being taking a swipe at ScotRail over the ‘waste of space’ of those services that have this designated class on the remaining Scottish routes. Pointing out the lack of meal services as a justification, and the rest of the train being crowded. I would expect that this option will be ’retired’ in the not-too-distant future.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I guess it depends what First Class offers. TfW's loco-hauled services from Cardiff to Manchester / Holyhead are a delight, while Cardiff - Paddington with GWR makes you wonder what on earth you are paying for.

Either offer a genuinely different experience from Standard or don't bother.

 

[Sorcerer]

If the Class 895s will come without first class accommodation or amenities then I think the precedent will be set for InterCity operations to remove it. I also wonder if Avanti and Eurostar's three classes of travel will become a model for the future or if Standard Premium might become a replacement for First Class. Whether it'd be under GBR wanting to reduce subsidy and costs or a private TOC/OOA wanting to reduce operational expenses, I wouldn't be too surprised if a proper premium First Class service ends becoming a thing of the past or something reserved for luxury trains rather than everyday operations. But it's a good question and something that might be fun to speculate over.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess it depends what First Class offers. TfW's loco-hauled services from Cardiff to Manchester / Holyhead are a delight, while Cardiff - Paddington with GWR makes you wonder what on earth you are paying for.

Either offer a genuinely different experience from Standard or don't bother.

Three seats across the width of the train is a genuinely different experience from Standard, particularly if you get a single seat. That's what the product is in most of Europe, and the traditional 1.5x multiplier in fare simply takes into account the reduced number of seats per coach.

The 2+2 sham first class like SWR needs to go, though.

For all I think 80x first class is a bit rubbish, it is certainly better than Standard.

 

[Topological]

I thought GWR first on the 80x was ok when I used it, but these days most standard class offerings are perfectly good enough.

I have used the TfW Mk4 a couple of times when there have been cheap advances. No way I would pay for the meal, and other people eating on my table would annoy me. That said it was empty on both occasions so no worries about anyone putting the smell of nice food under my nose.

All that said someone got on at Nantwich a couple of weeks ago with a fully curry meal (curry, rice, sides and cans of beer) and ate that on the single table in the declassified Standard Premium. I did wish at that point there was an on train offering to match.

 

[DH1Commuter]

LNER first is just about worth it for space and peace to work, if booked well in advance. The food/drink is increasingly poor.

If on a journey to London I must work, I will go first. If I were paying myself, zero chance as the difference is not even close to providing value for leisure travel.

 

[Falcon1200]

The Scottish press has being taking a swipe at ScotRail over the ‘waste of space’ of those services that have this designated class on the remaining Scottish routes.

The Scottish Green Party recently stated that Scotrail's First Class should be abolished as only 2% of those seats are actually used - I don't know where they got that figure from as, on the Scotrail trains with First Class which I use (the Edinburgh/Glasgow and HST services), that is very much not the case, ever. A very misleading statistic!

 

[Brubulus]

If the Class 895s will come without first class accommodation or amenities then I think the precedent will be set for InterCity operations to remove it. I also wonder if Avanti and Eurostar's three classes of travel will become a model for the future or if Standard Premium might become a replacement for First Class. Whether it'd be under GBR wanting to reduce subsidy and costs or a private TOC/OOA wanting to reduce operational expenses, I wouldn't be too surprised if a proper premium First Class service ends becoming a thing of the past or something reserved for luxury trains rather than everyday operations. But it's a good question and something that might be fun to speculate over.

The whole 895s won't have proper first class thing seems really weird, especially given that the stated capacity lines up for a train with 2 coaches of First and 6 of Standard. I can see them not having full size kitchens but those were a true waste of space.

 

[Snow1964]

I think there is actually quite strong (but suppressed) demand for First Class, but what you currently get is currently too inconsistent, or often too close to standard class.

Bigger seats, usually, but some are virtually identical with a bit of paper added at headrest level. More space and legroom, generally yes. Better seats with armrests, reclining features (things that are not in standard), far to often not. Extra services like at seat catering, far too often not.

Then get national bad reputation by stupidities being allowed like Southern regularly downgrading some First Class seating. If it becomes common knowledge on social media etc that can sit in First class at zero premium then going to undermine it.

My view is many people will pay for better experience, but not to level of stupid extra amounts (say 30-50% more is reasonable), and having done so expect the experience to be at a noticeably higher level , not get some inconsistent patchy partial upgrade.

The railway shoots itself in the foot, by having inconsistent standards, and forgets the basics. It sometimes seems First class is limited to train, not the journey. It's not hard to find bits of platform where First class coaches pull up, but they have no platform seats, no WiFi, no shelter or canopy, whereas other bits of station served by standard class coaches do.

If railway people start remembering that if it costs extra, then should be a premium experience over standard then people will start paying, but they won't when premium is too high and upgrade negligible

 

[38Cto15E]

Thanks for all of your replies, we all seem to be singing from the same hymn sheet, the TOC's will probably say it was Covid which put the spanner in the works.

 

[Buzby]

The Scottish Green Party recently stated that Scotrail's First Class should be abolished

I actually thought it was the tories… but as you note, the parties seem hell-bent on its removal. I hardly use it myself as I now have to pay for my own travel - and paying > £40+ for a wider seat and a bag of crisps and a sarnie don’t make it good value, but I like retaining the option should I wish to treat myself!

 

[Sorcerer]

The whole 895s won't have proper first class thing seems really weird, especially given that the stated capacity lines up for a train with 2 coaches of First and 6 of Standard. I can see them not having full size kitchens but those were a true waste of space.

On the one hand I get that London-Birmingham will be a fast journey time not really requiring first class accommodation, but aside from that the 895s are still going to be running the bulk of InterCity services on the network. If HS2 were done in full they would have been taking over the InterCity duties of the ECML, MML and WCML, so no first class service would be setting a pretty poor standard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the one hand I get that London-Birmingham will be a fast journey time not really requiring first class accommodation, but aside from that the 895s are still going to be running the bulk of InterCity services on the network. If HS2 were done in full they would have been taking over the InterCity duties of the ECML, MML and WCML, so no first class service would be setting a pretty poor standard.

Like with GWR and the Chieftain/Aberdeen I think a separate subfleet for the 4-5+ hour runs to Scotland, Penzance etc would make sense. These could have proper 1st and maybe even a European style restaurant car.

 

[Sorcerer]

Like with GWR and the Chieftain/Aberdeen I think a separate subfleet for the 4-5+ hour runs to Scotland, Penzance etc would make sense. These could have proper 1st and maybe even a European style restaurant car.

Not a bad idea to be honest. A subfleet of shorter 250/275m units would work well for Birmingham services while Manchester and Scotland get longer units with first class. Not sure about the Liverpool trains though. On the one-hand the distance is long enough that first class might still be warranted but the demand for it might not be as high as Manchester.

As for the restaurant car, it might make for a great replacement for the buffet car, and it might even reduce staff workloads since any first class passengers wanting a meal can simply show their ticket and get their complimentary food and drinks at the restaurant, but of course a potential downside is that it might make restaurant slots more limited, and first class passengers would need to be prioritised in that scenario. Curious to see how that might be managed.

 

[styles]

I'll be honest, half the time I'm paying for 1st class I'm paying for a quieter experience, often because I want to get some work done and in 1st I often end up with a large table to myself and little noise compared to standard.

Comfier seats are nice, and certainly on some of my journeys I'm paying for an at-seat meal service, but more often than not it's not being sardined into a busy carriage.

To that end, while I appreciate the Greens' call to remove 1st class on ScotRail services, sometimes the fact that they're quiet is actually the reason to pay for an upgrade. I don't buy their 2% figure in any case because that's not my experience at all. I wouldn't necessarily object to 1st class being removed on some routes, as I appreciate it's a privileged position to be in and public transport should benefit as many people as possible, but I wouldn't remove it on all ScotRail services as some sort of blanket policy.

I do think it's a shame that the catering offerings in 1st class are forever diminishing.

 

[Falcon1200]

I don't buy their 2% figure in any case because that's not my experience at all.

Nor mine! The Greens 2% figure means that, for example, on an Edinburgh/Queen St service formed of 2 Class 385/1 sets, only 1 of the 40 First Class seats on the train would ever be occupied, which is clearly nonsense.

I wouldn't necessarily object to 1st class being removed on some routes

I did my first Freedom of Scotland First Class Railrover in 1979, when First was available on far more routes than it is now; The West Highland and Glasgow/Carlisle via Dumfries lines, for example. First has progressively been removed and IMHO the balance is about right now, with only the 7 Cities and Edinburgh/Queen St services having it.

 

[Harpo]

Standard Premium on Avanti works for me. A no frills comfy seat in what seems to be a much more peaceful environment than standard.

Personally, I dislike the Avanti first class style of service with interuptions for each individual element of service (i.e. hot drink, cold drink, meal, etc.) and no certainty whatsoever of getting any of them unless you join in London

 

[Towers]

I think there is actually quite strong (but suppressed) demand for First Class, but what you currently get is currently too inconsistent, or often too close to standard class.

Bigger seats, usually, but some are virtually identical with a bit of paper added at headrest level. More space and legroom, generally yes. Better seats with armrests, reclining features (things that are not in standard), far to often not. Extra services like at seat catering, far too often not.

Then get national bad reputation by stupidities being allowed like Southern regularly downgrading some First Class seating. If it becomes common knowledge on social media etc that can sit in First class at zero premium then going to undermine it.

My view is many people will pay for better experience, but not to level of stupid extra amounts (say 30-50% more is reasonable), and having done so expect the experience to be at a noticeably higher level , not get some inconsistent patchy partial upgrade.

The railway shoots itself in the foot, by having inconsistent standards, and forgets the basics. It sometimes seems First class is limited to train, not the journey. It's not hard to find bits of platform where First class coaches pull up, but they have no platform seats, no WiFi, no shelter or canopy, whereas other bits of station served by standard class coaches do.

If railway people start remembering that if it costs extra, then should be a premium experience over standard then people will start paying, but they won't when premium is too high and upgrade negligible

It has to be remembered that First Class is very much intended to mean different things on different trains - the likes of Southern, Thameslink etc are merely offering a guaranteed seat, indeed the very same type of seat you’ll get if you sat down in Standard, whilst that would quite obviously be a deeply inferior offering on a long distance operator’s services. The value of what is on offer will of course mean different things to different users, but I do agree that ‘proper’ First on intercity TOCs ought to be more consistent in what is offered.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Sep 2025 ==

Like with GWR and the Chieftain/Aberdeen I think a separate subfleet for the 4-5+ hour runs to Scotland, Penzance etc would make sense. These could have proper 1st and maybe even a European style restaurant car.

Nice idea! Sadly of course the reality of modern day interworking and fleet pressures make the idea of separate subfleets a bit of a headache, not to mention that routes like the west coutry need as much seated capacity as possible.

Maybe one day!

 

[brad465]

Are there any commuter routes, especially London ones, with 1st class left? These routes definitely don't need it (especially given all they offered was slightly comfier seating in a segregated pod/section), hence why TOCs like Southeastern abolished it.

 

[styles]

Are there any commuter routes, especially London ones, with 1st class left? These routes definitely don't need it (especially given all they offered was slightly comfier seating in a segregated pod/section), hence why TOCs like Southeastern abolished it.

Southwestern I believe? Chiltern, but perhaps not on commuter rush hour services?

At that point, you're really paying for a guaranteed seat and some personal space.

 

[Hadders]

Are there any commuter routes, especially London ones, with 1st class left? These routes definitely don't need it (especially given all they offered was slightly comfier seating in a segregated pod/section), hence why TOCs like Southeastern abolished it.

Thameslink has it in the front compartment. Before someone corrects me, there are some TL services (eg Sutton loop) where it is declassified in the front.

 

[Helvellyn]

There is a market for First Class, if properly marketed. Hopefully GBR will look at standardising the soft offering in terms of complimentary catering depending on market. LNER's Deli/Dish/Dine split is probably a good starting point although hopefully taking a consistent approach will allow better economy of scale in terms of what they can buy.

Hot food offerings will be dependant on the various train types, and CrossCountry, EMR and TPE (Class 802s) will probably have less flexibility than LNER, Avanti and GWR. But the main thing should be being able to bring some consistency. If GWR's Pullman Dining concept has a place within the offer will be interesting - is it better to have a more consistent offer across more trains rather than a very premium offer on a handful?

I do think there is room for First Class on inter-regional services but DfT meddling has diminished that - ie: removal of First Class on the CrossCountry 170s, no First Class on EMR's Connect services; SWR's 444s going to 2+2 seating. On the latter SWT was very good at filling First Class on off-peak services with leisure travellers who appreciated a bigger seat and quieter travelling environment. Likewise on the West of England services.

It's not snobbish to say that there are people who would probably rather drive/fly than use the train if it was Standard Class only, and a successful GBR should be trying to cater to various market segments not just people who want £10 Advance tickets, with their railcard discounts, and those tickets on every train.

 

[Tester]

Southwestern I believe? Chiltern, but perhaps not on commuter rush hour services?

At that point, you're really paying for a guaranteed seat and some personal space.

Not actually guaranteed of course, but indeed more likely.


Fun related anecdote:

In the late 1990s I worked in Hong Kong, on the resignalling of the line from Kowloon to the Chinese border.

My boss presented me with a first class duty pass, saying, "Now you'll be able to stand among a better class of people".

He was of course correct, but it's the thought that counts!

 

[brad465]

Southwestern I believe? Chiltern, but perhaps not on commuter rush hour services?

At that point, you're really paying for a guaranteed seat and some personal space.

Forgot about them. From experience it's certainly useful on the Weymouth and Exeter routes, where advance tickets have been only slightly more expensive with some good seating availability. Might work well on the Portsmouth services too but never done that (in general).

 

[PrincesWinsdor]

Not actually guaranteed of course, but indeed more likely.


Fun related anecdote:

In the late 1990s I worked in Hong Kong, on the resignalling of the line from Kowloon to the Chinese border.

My boss presented me with a first class duty pass, saying, "Now you'll be able to stand among a better class of people".

He was of course correct, but it's the thought that counts!

I agree with you! As a frequent user of the Kowloon Canton Railway formerly operated by the KCRC, I can tell that there is a very low probability of getting a seat in First Class during rush hours

 

[Harpo]

Are there any commuter routes, especially London ones, with 1st class left?

The GE main line.

 

[Peter0124]

Is there any need for 1st on the Edinburgh-Glasgow express services? I don't even think the seats are as comfy as the normal ones and I have never heard of any catering onboard.