Will fare competition between FTPE & First ICWC exist ?

[Scooby]

I imagine that it is to early for anyone to have a definitive answer, but once the WCML is turned over to the First Group, will this effectively mean the end of competion for customers who want to travel from the North West on the WCML. Or would/do FTPE and First ICWC operate as totally seperate companies, with totally seperate pricing structures (albeit with the ability to use either services, if the ticket allows).

The only reason that I ask is that sometimes there can be a huge difference between FTPE & Virgin fares, which can work to the passengers advantage.

 

[michael769]

I cannot speak for First, but I have in the past seen different divisions within the same company compete directly against each other - they are surprisingly autonomous.

Indeed I suspect that the management of the ToCs in the same group are forbidden to discuss pricing and similar matters with each other (a Chinese wall in other words) for fear of provoking the OFT.

 

[Scooby]

I cannot speak for First, but I have in the past seen different divisions within the same company compete directly against each other - they are surprisingly autonomous.

Indeed I suspect that the management of the ToCs in the same group are forbidden to discuss pricing and similar matters with each other (a Chinese wall in other words) for fear of provoking the OFT.

It would be a very positive thing (IMO) if this happened. An amount of advance fares that each operator had for each service (hopefully plenty !!!) and then a fairly straightforward choice of a slower Scotland - North West service, stopping at more stations (ala London Midland), or a faster Express service that stops at fewer (ala Virgin) and the customer gets to choose which works better for them.

 

[PR1Berske]

It will be interesting to see how the dynamic works, suddenly TPE and IWC lines 'converge'

 

[Scooby]

Is it even possible for FTPE to 'transfer' the Manchester to Edinburgh/Glasgow services to ICWC ?

 

[rail-britain]

would/do FTPE and First ICWC operate as totally seperate companies, with totally seperate pricing structures (albeit with the ability to use either services, if the ticket allows).

The only reason that I ask is that sometimes there can be a huge difference between FTPE & Virgin fares, which can work to the passengers advantage.

These are two separate franchises, operated by two separate companies
Unlike when Virgin Rail Group operated West Coast and Cross Country, it will not be possible to merge the pricing structures
Therefore expect the variation in fares to remain
However, as both are owned by First mediation is possible to stabilise the fares

 

[Zoe]

These are two separate franchises, operated by two separate companies
Unlike when Virgin Rail Group operated West Coast and Cross Country, it will not be possible to merge the pricing structures

Both Cross Country Trains Limited and West Coast Trains Limited were owned by Virgin Rail Group but legally they were separate companies even though a single brand was used.

 

[PR1Berske]

Is it even possible for FTPE to 'transfer' the Manchester to Edinburgh/Glasgow services to ICWC ?

I'm not sure anything is going to happen until the 'northern england franchise' is sorted out.

 

[David10]

Is it even possible for FTPE to 'transfer' the Manchester to Edinburgh/Glasgow services to ICWC ?

Definitely not, the DfT does not allow for services to be transferred between franchises, besides First's TPE franchise may finish only 15 months after FWC takes over.

 

[rail-britain]

Is it even possible for FTPE to 'transfer' the Manchester to Edinburgh/Glasgow services to ICWC ?

As above, the franchise holders could not do so
However in the same way as West Coast trains (Virgin Rail group) convinced / recommended DfT to transfer the service away from its Cross Country franchise, the same could occur again

It is known Virgin Rail Group were against any proposal to return the Scotland - Manchester services to the West Coast franchise, but they accepted it would occur (clearly they had done the maths and realised it was to their benefit again)

It's not too long until the completely revised Northern franchise specification is released
It does make sense to return this predominantly express and anglo-Scottish routes back to the West Coast franchise

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm not sure anything is going to happen until the 'northern england franchise' is sorted out.

Virgin's two franchises were both 15-year affairs, and Opraf/SRA were quite keen to get the undoubted benefits from a single operation (eg the Voyager fleet, customer service centre etc).
Things seem to have changed now with no synergy planned or expected between franchises (though sometimes it works with rolling stock transfers).
The WC franchise is for 15 years but the adjacent TP/SC franchises only run to 2014/15, so there is no real incentive to merge operations until the new franchises are awarded.
FirstGroup as a whole inherits the liabilities of its franchises (eg premium payments, rolling stock leases, financial bonds etc) so it will certainly exert central control over their operation.

 

[tbtc]

The WCML north of Preston is a funny one in terms of demand. On the one hand people are complaining that an hourly 4 coach EMU (to replace the roughly bi-hourly 3 coach TPE DMUs) won't be enough. On the other hand both TOCs are having to resort to £15/£20 tickets to entice people onto their trains (suggesting that demand would be much lower if people had to pay normal fares).

Given the number of (otherwise) empty seats during midweek I'd expect plenty of "train specific" tickets (just like on routes like Manchester - London which have only one TOC) - whether there are "TOC specific" tickets that aren't restricted to specific trains is another story...

 

[WatcherZero]

The WCML north of Preston is a funny one in terms of demand. On the one hand people are complaining that an hourly 4 coach EMU (to replace the roughly bi-hourly 3 coach TPE DMUs) won't be enough. On the other hand both TOCs are having to resort to £15/£20 tickets to entice people onto their trains (suggesting that demand would be much lower if people had to pay normal fares).

Given the number of (otherwise) empty seats during midweek I'd expect plenty of "train specific" tickets (just like on routes like Manchester - London which have only one TOC) - whether there are "TOC specific" tickets that aren't restricted to specific trains is another story...

The demand profile is a bit funny, its full in the peaks weekdays but empty offpeak on weekdays except for Friday to Sunday where due to demand from weekend trippers to the Lakes and Scotland demand is 50% higher.

I guess you see the same thing on the Thursday night and Friday trains out of Euston with all of Westminster and their staff returning to the constituencies on Thursdays and weekly commuters returning to their weekend homes on Fridays.

 

[E16 Cyclist]

Is it even possible for FTPE to 'transfer' the Manchester to Edinburgh/Glasgow services to ICWC ?

Not transfer as such but they could in theory wet lease rolling stock and staff from ICWC to operate these services. Whether they have the resources to do so however remains to be seen

 

[mallard]

Not transfer as such but they could in theory wet lease rolling stock and staff from ICWC to operate these services. Whether they have the resources to do so however remains to be seen

And utterly confuse everyone with TOC-specific tickets... Sounds like a good way to sell some undiscounted anytime tickets though!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The First 55-plus promotion could be fun after Christmas...
Penzance to Wick and back via London for £50 perhaps?