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Will Crossrail 2 never happen now?

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plugwash

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Also it's worth highlighting that a change to WFH may actually increase rail use, in that 80% if miles traveled is by car and 10% by rail. Therefore if people are traveling less frequently then car ownership (with high upfront costs, especially for the young)
Car ownership has high upfront costs but the ongoing costs can be much lower. The costs of getting a driving license are obviously paid only once. Car insurance is very expensive for new drivers but it drops significantly the longer you have been driving. Selling a car will often only return a small fraction of what was paid for it.

Add to that the fact that the covid outbreak has shown how non-car owners can get well and truely screwed by a pandemic and I don't see many giving up their cars.
 
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The Ham

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Car ownership has high upfront costs but the ongoing costs can be much lower. The costs of getting a driving license are obviously paid only once. Car insurance is very expensive for new drivers but it drops significantly the longer you have been driving. Selling a car will often only return a small fraction of what was paid for it.

Add to that the fact that the covid outbreak has shown how non-car owners can get well and truely screwed by a pandemic and I don't see many giving up their cars.

When I say high upfront costs I mean each year, not learning to drive.

The average car, including purchase costs, insurance, VED, maintenance, etc. costs over £3,000 per year. Chances are that's over £2,000 per year regardless of the miles traveled, even if that figure is £1,000 you've got to do a lot of miles to get to the point where you're miles are costing less than 45p each (getting on for 3,000 miles).

If you travel 15 miles each way for work, that's 6,750 miles a year just for that, if you're only doing 9,000 miles total then if you start working 2 days a week then your total miles falls to 5,000. If you're costs were £1,900 (including £900 fuel) that would have been 21p per mile. The costs then change to £1,500 which means the cost per mile rises to 30p.

If you're using costs even rise to £1,750 that increases to 45p per mile.

£1,750 could be:
£300 insurance
£140 VED
£200 maintenance (servicing, tyres, etc.)
£75 parking
£1,035 in purchase costs (you'd not be able to leaon your a car for that as that's £86/month)

Assuming you but a car for £6,000 and sell it 3 years later for £2,900 that's your purchase costs of £1,035/year.

Yes it's possible to do it for less, but then chances are you're maintenance costs could be higher.

Anyway, it depends on where you live as to how hard lockdown has been without a car. However many could have coped with 1 car rather than 2+ given that unless you're both critical workers then chances are it would have been possible to share just the one car.

I live in a rural village/town of 9,000 and or car was around only being used for my wife to get to/from work and food shopping once or twice a week (with WFH the rest of the time), even if it's been working that wouldn't have changed.
 

kevin_roche

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According to Construction Enquirer Transport for London has secured an eleventh-hour bailout from the government worth about £1.8bn.

The six-month deal to keep services running comes with several strings including scrapping all ongoing consultancy work developing the Crossrail 2 scheme...

 

GRALISTAIR

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According to Construction Enquirer Transport for London has secured an eleventh-hour bailout from the government worth about £1.8bn.

The six-month deal to keep services running comes with several strings including scrapping all ongoing consultancy work developing the Crossrail 2 scheme...


So I would suggest it is not being cancelled but very much kicked into the very long grass.
 

59CosG95

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So I would suggest it is not being cancelled but very much kicked into the very long grass.
"All ongoing consultancy work." Certainly gives the impression that it's only being cryogenically frozen and then hoofed at 100mph into the nearest metaphorical place with grass taller than the average skyscraper.
 

Tio Terry

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So I would suggest it is not being cancelled but very much kicked into the very long grass.
I guess the DfT and TfL are biding their time to see what happens post Covid. Will commuter numbers return to anything like pre covid numbers? Who knows? Putting it on hold rather than fully cancelling it does make sense.
 

hwl

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"All ongoing consultancy work." Certainly gives the impression that it's only being cryogenically frozen and then hoofed at 100mph into the nearest metaphorical place with grass taller than the average skyscraper.
The key detail that article missed was the bit "apart form completing safeguarding the revised route..."
 

squizzler

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I think it was politically necessary to give the appearance of canning cross rail at the present time in view of the sacrifices being made by the country as a whole and to dispel the emerging perception that the government care only for London and the Southeast. After its pummelling at the hands of Manchester and other Northern authorities, I think it inevitable that London must be seen to yield its pound of flesh.

Ironically, I think that Crossrail 2 will be more necessary assuming that London's economy is becoming more dispersed and less concentrated in the City than before the pandemic. The safeguarding of the land is a good sign. When the post pandemic travel patterns emerge and the impracticalities of autonomous trains becomes apparent, I am sure development will be quietly reinstated.
 

Hadders

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My view is that Covid will end up delaying CR2 by 20 years.
 

The Ham

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My view is that Covid will end up delaying CR2 by 20 years.

Whilst it may take extra time to get to the point where train loadings are going to be as busy as they would have been at the opening of Crossrail 2, there's another potential outcome from Covid-19.

That being that people just won't tolerate being so crammed in as they once were.

Of that's the case then it could well be that there's pressure to fix train capacity for services into the London terminals.

For instance if there's a 50% fall in rail use into Waterloo, where often trains were 120% of capacity they'll then be 60% of capacity, however within 15 years that could be 70% of capacity assuming 1% growth. That's starting to get very busy, in terms of seated capacity.

Given that many services into Waterloo are 3+2 seating, which is likely to be even less liked for sitting 3 next to each other, especially during flu season, then it could be possible that extra capacity could be demanded much sooner than otherwise would have been the case.

However change any of those assumptions even a little and capacity limits could be hit much sooner, for instance annual growth of 1.5% (rather than 1%) and a starting point of passenger loadings of 128% (rather than 120%) and after 15 years you're at 80% (rather than 70%). Likewise a fall of 42% would leave us at 70% before considering an future growth.

As I've highlighted before to get a 50% fall in rail use would require a lot of WFH from a lot of people.

Even assuming that 100% of peak hour travel is work related commuting you'd need 75% of jobs being able to be done from home and 66.67% of all work days to do so.

The problem is that chances are (given that a lot would WFH between 1 & 3 days a week or between 1 & 3 weeks out of a month) the average number of working days would be much smaller than 66.67%.

Other factors which would impact on those figures would be those opting to work in the office as they would much rather do so (for reasons such as poor home working setup, living alone, needing to give or provide support between team members) or because they aren't aloud to WFH (lost productivity, need to provide oversight of others, etc).

Even a fall of 25% would require 63% of jobs WFH an average of 40% of the time (again assuming 100% work based commuting), which may be on the lower side for heading into places like Waterloo (although probably still fairly likely), however that would only mean a drop from 120% loadings to 90% loadings.

If in (say) 2025 Waterloo is seeing average peak hour passenger loadings of between 70% and 90% then I wouldn't rule out a sub 10 year delay. Especially if off peak passenger numbers are little changed.

Especially given that WFH could actually make such travel more likely as people WFH for an hour, deal with emails/report writing on their way into the office on an off peak service, do half a day in the office, before catching an off peak service back home (dealing with more emails, more report writing, other way to do with low internet speeds) to the finish off their working day at home (actually sending some of the emails, dealing with things that have cropped up whilst traveling, last few calls, etc.)

It's why I suspect that it's been paused rather than cancelled, as it could well be that it's back on the table rather rapidly (although still delayed from when it was due to open) of the falls in rail use aren't as significant as suggested.

That's before you consider any possible shift from road to rail due to cars being used less but many of the costs remaining unchanged or only reduced slightly. As VED, MOT, servicing for most people (i.e. those who don't do over 15,000 miles a year or whatever the service intervals are), insurance (again unless you're doing significant miles) and the like would remain unchanged. Whilst purchase cost, parking charges (unless paying to park at work) and the like would see falls, but not directly linked to the number of miles traveled. Combined this would increase the cost per mile of travel, and whilst this would be a saving compared to before Covid-19, could lead to people being more likely to have fewer cars and using rail for more occasional travel and/or for getting to work the days where their other half is using the car to get to work.

Whilst such shifts might be small compared to overall road use it could have a significant impact on rail use. As a 0.625% shift from road to rail would provide a 5% uplift (pre Covid-19 levels) in rail use. Therefore on trains which were 120% full could add 6% to the post Covid-19 passenger numbers, making it less likely that we'd see falls much above 25% in rail use between 2019 and (say) 2025.
 

squizzler

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It's why I suspect that it's been paused rather than cancelled, as it could well be that it's back on the table rather rapidly (although still delayed from when it was due to open) of the falls in rail use aren't as significant as suggested.
I agree. Whilst the current government might be at loggerheads with Sadiq Kahn in the London Mayor's office, the project may well be back in contention after the next general election in four years time.
 

edwin_m

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Especially given that WFH could actually make such travel more likely as people WFH for an hour, deal with emails/report writing on their way into the office on an off peak service, do half a day in the office, before catching an off peak service back home (dealing with more emails, more report writing, other way to do with low internet speeds) to the finish off their working day at home (actually sending some of the emails, dealing with things that have cropped up whilst traveling, last few calls, etc.)
However this will generate more travel in the off-peak, not in the peak hour which is what determines capacity.
That's before you consider any possible shift from road to rail due to cars being used less but many of the costs remaining unchanged or only reduced slightly. As VED, MOT, servicing for most people (i.e. those who don't do over 15,000 miles a year or whatever the service intervals are), insurance (again unless you're doing significant miles) and the like would remain unchanged. Whilst purchase cost, parking charges (unless paying to park at work) and the like would see falls, but not directly linked to the number of miles traveled. Combined this would increase the cost per mile of travel, and whilst this would be a saving compared to before Covid-19, could lead to people being more likely to have fewer cars and using rail for more occasional travel and/or for getting to work the days where their other half is using the car to get to work.
That only works if it allows people to give up ownership of a car. If they decide they still need the vehicle then they still pay all those fixed costs, and the marginal costs of using it for a particular journey may still be less than the train fare. And as I've already pointed out, there aren't many journeys being made by car today (or pre-Covid) that might transfer onto CR2.
 

The Ham

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However this will generate more travel in the off-peak, not in the peak hour which is what determines capacity.

That only works if it allows people to give up ownership of a car. If they decide they still need the vehicle then they still pay all those fixed costs, and the marginal costs of using it for a particular journey may still be less than the train fare. And as I've already pointed out, there aren't many journeys being made by car today (or pre-Covid) that might transfer onto CR2.

Whilst peak demand drives capacity, the point I was making was that post Covid-19, how many are likely to want to get on a train where they are packed in like sardines?

As such when trains are running at 120% with a 25% fall would still be running at 90%. That's likely to mean that there would still be a significant amount of pressure to restart Crossrail 2.

I accept that car ownership is complex, however with a factor of *8 from road use to rail use (i.e. someone switching 1% of their road use would statically increase their rail use by 8%).

One area where Crossrail 2 would allow travel to shift from road to rail would be those driving from (say) Guildford to Manchester then using rail to go into Central London before then heading back out from Euston.

That as a car journey wouldn't be via Central London but could see people using Crossrail 2 or services which benefit from the opening of Crossrail 2 to undertake their rail travel.

A single 400 mile round trip like that could be 4% of someone's annual road travel, (now obviously through London would only be a fraction of that, but it would still add to the use of rail).

I'm not saying that we're definitely going to be looking at the same demand which we'd have previously required to justify the building of new capacity (although that's still possible), but rather the shift may well be towards lower threshold due to the level of overcrowding which we previously accepted which we may not be so keen to accept.

Anyway, a 20% fall would likely just roll passenger use back to circa 2012. As it was the case that Crossrail 2 was being progressed in 2012 and the Mayor at the time answered a question on it:

Crossrail 2 is extremely important to the future of London and a priority during my second term of office. With the level of growth planned for London and the constraints placed on our transport networks through projects such as High Speed 2, Crossrail 2 is essential if London's economy is to continue to grow. TfL is currently assessing a number of options, working with Network Rail and the boroughs, with a view to identifying a short list of options towards the end of this year. This will enable a preferred corridor to be identified that could be taken forward in terms of safeguarding.

The Mayor of London at the time of that question was a certain Mr Boris Johnson.
 
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