Will Bolton ever have a direct train to London?

[Altnabreac]

When we've been electrified, there's nothing to stop Glasgow-Preston-London trains calling at Bolton/Manchester.

No idea of the max speed they could attain (will the line allow pendo's?) but I'm sure at the right time of day a direct service would be popular.

What are the chances? Is it even possible after the Deansgate-Picc alterations and improvements??

Interestingly something similar to this was proposed by HS2 Ltd as the potential service pattern for a post HS2 Phase 2 legacy service on the WCML.

These service patterns were for modelling purposes only but give some idea of the thinking at HS2 Ltd on how services could be run once HS2 opened.

Essentially they proposed linking a legacy Manchester - London Euston WCML service with the TPE Manchester - Scotland service with a calling pattern as shown below:

WC Glasgow Central to London Euston

8 per day (2 hourly)

Glasgow Central, Motherwell, Carlisle,
Penrith, Lancaster, Preston, Wigan North
Western, Manchester Oxford Road,
Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport,
Macclesfield, Stoke on Trent, Milton Keynes
Central, London Euston


WC Edinburgh to London Euston

8 per day (2 hourly)
Edinburgh, Haymarket, Carlisle, Oxenholme,
Preston, Wigan North Western, Manchester
Oxford Road, Manchester Piccadilly,
Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke on Trent,
Milton Keynes Central, London Euston

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...on_of_the_service_patterns__January_2013_.pdf

Now this service was modelled on going via Wigan as that was the route being taken by TPE services at the time but given Wigan is now proposed to get an HS2 service via Crewe you would think there would be a good chance of running such a service via Bolton instead.

 

[Howardh]

Up the hill from Vic., Branch off at Miles Platting, then via Denton, Reddish (I think), and thus into Stockport.

Yes, just been looking at an old map and that looks the most likely route, passing by what is now City's ground, loop at Beswick and then down the Parliamentary line towards Stockport.

See...we've found a use for current Parliamentary line as that route is still possible today!! The Lanky Express, direct from Accrington to Euston, with free tripe 'n' onions, pint of Wainwright and Black Puddin's in proper First Class by 'ek.


I'd buy a ticket today

 

[tbtc]

It is absolutely madness that London - Manchester - Scotland is not a through route given that even London - Birmingham - Scotland is now a through route

Absolute madness?

You know what would be absolute madness... trying to unload hundreds of London - Manchester passengers on the narrow "through" platforms (13/14) whilst others board for Bolton/ Preston/ Carlisle/ Edinburgh/ Glasgow, in the short dwell time that trains have at these busy platforms... unless you are planning to replace eleven coach 390s with twelve coach 350s (so that the doors would be more suited to such alighting/ boarding)?

It "works" on the Birmingham route if you accept that there are lots of through platforms at New Street (rather than the bottle neck you get at Piccadilly), and you accept that passengers doing journeys like Crewe - Birmingham have to wait around fifteen minutes (xx:31 - xx:45) due to the Scotland - Wolverhampton path not matching up very well with the Wolverhampton - London path. Okay, there's space at Wolves for this, but what if you found that a Glasgow - Manchester - London service had to wait ten/ fifteen minutes at Bolton to meet the path of the existing Manchester - London service?

Although if there is just one train, it will probably be a peak service and way out of day-trippers pockets

That's the problem with these "one a day" services... if they are well timed for business people then they are "a rip off" (since there are no cheap tickets available...

...but if they are timed off-peak (to use marginal resources and allow cheap tickets to London) then they are "useless" since they won't give sufficient time in the capital before you need to head home.

Really, we should be forgetting about these kind of "one a day" services and concentrate on good connections.

people travelling from Lancashire, Cumbria and Glasgow - London don't want to be trundling half way round northern England en-route to their destination

Agreed - I'm not sure what a Glasgow - Manchester - London service would "solve" (is there a huge demand from Glasgow to Stoke? Carlisle to Macclesfield?).

Even if you accept only a five minute wait in Manchester (rather than the ugly fifteen minutes in Wolverhampton on the Glasgow - Birmingham - London service) then you'll be talking a journey time of over an hour longer than the current Glasgow - London fast services (3h15 from Glasgow to Manchester plus 5 minutes in Manchester plus + 2h15 from Manchester to Glasgow = 5h35). Maybe if there were no Glasgow - Birmingham - London service then you could make a case for filling empty seats on a "via Manchester" service with cheap advanced tickets, but I can't see a case for a "via Manchester" and a "via Birmingham" service (as well as the fast hourly "direct" service).

Seems to be a solution in need of a problem.

Whoa there...what's the combined population of Bolton and surrounding areas that don't have direct access to London? For the sake of a short busride to Trinity Street rather than the long tramride to Picc even people the west of Bury could use the service. So we're looking at well over 300k, maybe 400k. That's a lot greater than some of the towns on the direct route where trains stop!

Without wanting to get too involved in a discussion about local government boundaries, I think that a reasonable chunk of your four hundred thousand people will live within a ten mile radius of Wigan North Western (which has an hourly train to London taking under two hours). Regular trains from Wigan (Wallgate) to Bolton too.

Even if that was the idea it doesn't make it any more sensible. Where would the stock come from? What about the significant number of people who use the TPE services to travel to Manchester Airport?

The first thing I thought of, when I opened this thread, was the inevitable wailing and gnashing of teeth at the prospect of Manchester Airport losing more direct links

I see no reason why once the wires go live that some Pendolinos cannot serve Bolton in marginal time UP road early morning returning in the evening assuming this works with maintainence requirements at Longsight

If Bolton *must* have a London service then that seems the most sensible way to do it (like the VTEC method of serving Sunderland). BR used to be good at this kind of resource allocation (e.g. I think that one of the reasons for the Highland Chieftan was the fact that there was an HST diagram that didn't start off Craigentinny until late morning whilst there was another that finished at Craigentinny at tea time - i.e. you could start the first duty in Inverness and extend the second duty to Inverness without requiring any more trains).

Does anyone know what time the last Pendolino leaves Longsight in the morning (i.e. if there's one that doesn't leave Longsight until eight in the morning then could this be run ECS from Longsight to Bolton and then in service from Bolton to Piccadilly where it would pick up the existing diagram towards Euston?). And equivalent time for the first Pendolino to finish its diagram in Manchester in the evening?

I've commented before that I would replace them with an Airport Express type shuttle from a dedicated platform at Picc on a 10 or 15 minute frequency using EMUs (e.g. 319s) and free up much needed 185s and 350s. Works for Heathrow and Stansted

Agreed.

This would also have the benefit of freeing up frequencies/ patterns on other lines (e.g. at the moment the need to fit a slot from the Airport to Piccadilly means that the Cleethorpes service makes a 20/40 minute frequency with the Norwich service between Manchester and Sheffield) and allow links through Manchester (e.g. Sheffield to Blackpool was a direct service under BR).

Tying everything together into the congested Airport branch is a real waste of resources. The tail is wagging the dog.

 

[Howardh]

Everyone assumes it would stop at Piccadilly if it's such a problem. Is there no option to have a shortened pendo or any 100mph which goes through Picc but doesn't stop to pick up/drop off? Glasgow or Edinburgh/Carlisle/Lancaster/Preston/Bolton/Stockport>>>Euston?
Let's face it, Virgin trains from Scotland to Euston (and/or Birmingham) don't go anywhere near Manchester so diverting one or two a day to pick up at Bolton/Stockport rather than Wigan/Warrington wouldn't do any harm?

Also I'd be inteersted to know the flow of traffic from Bolton and district to Wigan to connect to London compared with connecting at Piccadilly. I would suggest it's a far lower % due to a. going to Wigan 20 mins (same as Picc roughly), b. less frequent trains possibly (certainly on return in the evening!) + c. more expensive onward travel.
I've never found a cheaper Wigan - London ticket than Picc - London even though I've always tried that as an option. Might just be unlucky or not travelling at the cheapest times though.

 

[Starmill]

You're suggesting changing one of the Manchester <> London paths to call at Bolton... and not Piccadilly?

Riight...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Let's face it, Virgin trains from Scotland to Euston (and/or Birmingham) don't go anywhere near Manchester so diverting one or two a day to pick up at Bolton/Stockport rather than Wigan/Warrington wouldn't do any harm?

So you'd cheerfully extend the journey times of some of the most crowded trains that VT run (Preston-London) and miss out two busy stations with no other southbound services?

 

[Altfish]

I'm not sure if this is feasible because of capacity issues between Piccadilly and Castlefield Junction - it may work if Piccadilly gets the extra 2 through platforms, but that looks a long way off now.

 

[Howardh]

You're suggesting changing one of the Manchester <> London paths to call at Bolton... and not Piccadilly?

Riight...

So you'd cheerfully extend the journey times of some of the most crowded trains that VT run (Preston-London) and miss out two busy stations with no other southbound services?

The point I'm trying to make is why should an area with such a large population (hey, we have smaller cities) miss out on this chance to be linked directly to the capital? Even if the stock isn't available now, or even the through route 13/14 is currently inappropriate, we are talking 3 - 4 years ahead and we should darned well make it happen. 13/14 should be able to take inter-cities, they used to (diesels...I've caught them!) and with the new bus station being built right next to Trinity street - add that Bolton is a hated shopping centre from the locals who would rather go to Bury and Wigan, they would probably go to London if it were easy and the right price - there's a huge opportunity for Virgin to gain new customers.

It's a hassle to change at Piccadilly, even so returning in the evening when there's nothing northbound to meet the incoming Euston trains (you can wait over 40' at times and if it's after 11 you're stuffed - just the one train/bus around 12 thanks very much) and our local services seem to go to Victoria rather than Piccadilly.

The very least Virgin could do is consider a Saturday and maybe Sunday shopping/sports/tourist diagram. Just think, house/bus/Trinity/Euston could be done in around 3 hours....maybe less! Leave London 7.30pm be back home in time for Match Of The Day.
If I were Virgin's CEO I'd be rubbing my hands!

But everything seems to be covered in negativity.
We can't do it.
We don't want to do it.
The platforms aren't big enough.
Nobody will use it.
People in Wigan and Warrington will be upset because they might lose a train *why can't they travel to Manchester and catch one like we have to....???*

Being in Britain with it's negativity is saddening - and people are clinging on to the back of lorries to get here....

One thing I will be doing is writing to my local MP (Tory - Chris Green) and finding out if there are any intentions to try the service and, if not, why not. I'm sure a local campaign could/should(?) be run - not that it would make any difference. The difference would be bums on seats and no-one will know unless it's trailled!

 

[Bletchleyite]

There was one heck of a lot of negativity over the linking of Euston-Brum and Brum-Scotland, and they did it anyway, and to me it is a massive service improvement in just about[1] every way. I used to avoid Brum-Scotland due to serious overcrowding - now the worst trains are 11-car Pendolinos with plenty of space, and there are cheap Advances for those who like them.

[1] Local passengers incidentally using VT such as Wolves-Brum and MKC-Euston lost out a bit, but as local travel is not VT's primary role, and a fast LM MKC-Euston has been added due to Project 110, I don't see that as a huge downside.

 

[NSEFAN]

Perhaps once HS2 has absorbed the majority of Manchester passengers we can run more through trains from Bolton to London on the older route.

 

[Howardh]

There was one heck of a lot of negativity over the linking of Euston-Brum and Brum-Scotland, and they did it anyway, and to me it is a massive service improvement in just about[1] every way. I used to avoid Brum-Scotland due to serious overcrowding - now the worst trains are 11-car Pendolinos with plenty of space, and there are cheap Advances for those who like them.

[1] Local passengers incidentally using VT such as Wolves-Brum and MKC-Euston lost out a bit, but as local travel is not VT's primary role, and a fast LM MKC-Euston has been added due to Project 110, I don't see that as a huge downside.

On my ocasional visits to Glasgow I come back on the 1840 (apologies if the timing's/my memory's out!) on a Saturday, I'm surprised that that is the last train that goes beyond Carlisle; and also surprised it's destination is Birmingham! But (not including football fans) sometimes it's well used, sometimes thre's just a handful on. But I'm glad of the service, but wonder if you can connect to London from it along the way (Crewe??).

If you can't then the last train to London is even earlier on a Saturday which seems odd - a solution when the electrification is finished would be to divert Bolton/Picc and change there..but then again I don't know if you can change at Crewe or Birmingham for the capital.

EDIT the 1840 won't get you to London, but the 1800 will.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Part of the problem is the stupidly early last train from New St to Euston on a Saturday. Quite a bit later on a weekday, *much* later on a Sunday.

 

[Starmill]

I'm sure it's 2214 LM on Saturdays, 2310 VT on weekdays? Is Sunday really later than 2310?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I suppose if we ever did get inter-city services again (hopefully more than one per day) I wonder if I could ask Santa for a first-class lounge?

One step at a time....

If Huddersfield, in the famously-thrifty People's Republic of West Yorkshire, can have a first-class lounge I'd have thought Bolton could too... Though not much use if there's very little opportunity for first-class once you get on the train!

 

[backontrack]

I'd have thought a Blackburn-Bolton-Manchester-Euston service would be a viable open-access route, but for the lack of any EPS-capable diesel units being available...

It could even start at Burnley/Todmorden and call at Manchester Road, Rose Grove, Accrington, Church & Oswaldtwistle and Darwen (but maybe a bit too far).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm sure it's 2214 LM on Saturdays, 2310 VT on weekdays? Is Sunday really later than 2310?

I stand corrected, Sunday is 2300 so slightly earlier.

 

[Starmill]

I agree on the annoyingness of Sunday evening service being better than Saturday evening service, both in this respect and things like no Sleepers on Saturdays. It increases the risk of stranding if you're delayed too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree on the annoyingness of Sunday evening service being better than Saturday evening service, both in this respect and things like no Sleepers on Saturdays. It increases the risk of stranding if you're delayed too.

In years of rail travel and hundreds if not thousands of journeys, I have never been completely stranded. If things go wrong on a correctly planned journey and last trains are missed, taxis and the likes are arranged.

I really wouldn't worry about that at all. Though I do think there should be a later (around 2300) train on a Saturday!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Out of interest, how problematic would it be (assuming rolling stock could be found) to run a service: Blackburn - Bolton - Manchester Victoria (reverse) - Eccles - Warrington BQ - Euston?

Off the top of my head, that would avoid the congestion at Piccadilly platforms 13/14, and could additionally remove some London-Warrington passengers from the very crowded direct Euston-Scotland services.

 

[WatcherZero]

Manchester Victoria platforms are heavily congested and usually operate in sub divided A and B fashion, it would be a serious issue to tie a whole platform up with a reversing long distance train.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Out of interest, how problematic would it be (assuming rolling stock could be found) to run a service: Blackburn - Bolton - Manchester Victoria (reverse) - Eccles - Warrington BQ - Euston?

Off the top of my head, that would avoid the congestion at Piccadilly platforms 13/14, and could additionally remove some London-Warrington passengers from the very crowded direct Euston-Scotland services.

I can just imagine a London-bound train negotiating the slow single line section between Blackburn and Bolton....:roll:.

Why not just leave Blackburn and pass through Bamber Bridge and then take the WCML southwards?

 

[Howardh]

If Huddersfield, in the famously-thrifty People's Republic of West Yorkshire, can have a first-class lounge I'd have thought Bolton could too... Though not much use if there's very little opportunity for first-class once you get on the train!

One first-class lounge and two first-class real-ale pubs! Tha' deren't know tha' born in t'Yerkshere.
Over 'ere we're still catchin' trams drawn by 'orse 'n' cart AND shovellin' t'hossmuk for them and being blummin' grateful.....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can just imagine a London-bound train negotiating the slow single line section between Blackburn and Bolton....:roll:.

Why not just leave Blackburn and pass through Bamber Bridge and then take the WCML southwards?

Honestly, there's more chance of getting two airports (Blackburn and Bolton International) and flying between them than getting that rail line upgraded!

 

[PHILIPE]

I agree on the annoyingness of Sunday evening service being better than Saturday evening service, both in this respect and things like no Sleepers on Saturdays. It increases the risk of stranding if you're delayed too.

Saturday nights are difficult because of handing the track over to Network Rail for Engineering Work.

 

[backontrack]

Easy. After electrification via Chorley, extend a Pendolino to Bolton. Simples.

 

[Clip]

Easy. After electrification via Chorley, extend a Pendolino to Bolton. Simples.

Does Bolton have the facilities for a terminating Pendo?

 

[thealexweb]

Does Bolton have the facilities for a terminating Pendo?

Around mid 2017 Bolton will gain another nine car through platform, presuming the new Platform 5 is equal or greater in length that the existing parallel Platform 4. In theory at least this will allow a Class 390 to be turned around without wrecking the current timetable. Although continuing to Preston or Blackpool North and turning the unit around there would be considerably easier.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Absolute madness?

You know what would be absolute madness... trying to unload hundreds of London - Manchester passengers on the narrow "through" platforms (13/14) whilst others board for Bolton/ Preston/ Carlisle/ Edinburgh/ Glasgow, in the short dwell time that trains have at these busy platforms... unless you are planning to replace eleven coach 390s with twelve coach 350s (so that the doors would be more suited to such alighting/ boarding)?

It "works" on the Birmingham route if you accept that there are lots of through platforms at New Street (rather than the bottle neck you get at Piccadilly), and you accept that passengers doing journeys like Crewe - Birmingham have to wait around fifteen minutes (xx:31 - xx:45) due to the Scotland - Wolverhampton path not matching up very well with the Wolverhampton - London path. Okay, there's space at Wolves for this, but what if you found that a Glasgow - Manchester - London service had to wait ten/ fifteen minutes at Bolton to meet the path of the existing Manchester - London service?



That's the problem with these "one a day" services... if they are well timed for business people then they are "a rip off" (since there are no cheap tickets available...

...but if they are timed off-peak (to use marginal resources and allow cheap tickets to London) then they are "useless" since they won't give sufficient time in the capital before you need to head home.

Really, we should be forgetting about these kind of "one a day" services and concentrate on good connections.



Agreed - I'm not sure what a Glasgow - Manchester - London service would "solve" (is there a huge demand from Glasgow to Stoke? Carlisle to Macclesfield?).

Even if you accept only a five minute wait in Manchester (rather than the ugly fifteen minutes in Wolverhampton on the Glasgow - Birmingham - London service) then you'll be talking a journey time of over an hour longer than the current Glasgow - London fast services (3h15 from Glasgow to Manchester plus 5 minutes in Manchester plus + 2h15 from Manchester to Glasgow = 5h35). Maybe if there were no Glasgow - Birmingham - London service then you could make a case for filling empty seats on a "via Manchester" service with cheap advanced tickets, but I can't see a case for a "via Manchester" and a "via Birmingham" service (as well as the fast hourly "direct" service).

Seems to be a solution in need of a problem.



Without wanting to get too involved in a discussion about local government boundaries, I think that a reasonable chunk of your four hundred thousand people will live within a ten mile radius of Wigan North Western (which has an hourly train to London taking under two hours). Regular trains from Wigan (Wallgate) to Bolton too.



The first thing I thought of, when I opened this thread, was the inevitable wailing and gnashing of teeth at the prospect of Manchester Airport losing more direct links



If Bolton *must* have a London service then that seems the most sensible way to do it (like the VTEC method of serving Sunderland). BR used to be good at this kind of resource allocation (e.g. I think that one of the reasons for the Highland Chieftan was the fact that there was an HST diagram that didn't start off Craigentinny until late morning whilst there was another that finished at Craigentinny at tea time - i.e. you could start the first duty in Inverness and extend the second duty to Inverness without requiring any more trains).

Does anyone know what time the last Pendolino leaves Longsight in the morning (i.e. if there's one that doesn't leave Longsight until eight in the morning then could this be run ECS from Longsight to Bolton and then in service from Bolton to Piccadilly where it would pick up the existing diagram towards Euston?). And equivalent time for the first Pendolino to finish its diagram in Manchester in the evening?



Agreed.

This would also have the benefit of freeing up frequencies/ patterns on other lines (e.g. at the moment the need to fit a slot from the Airport to Piccadilly means that the Cleethorpes service makes a 20/40 minute frequency with the Norwich service between Manchester and Sheffield) and allow links through Manchester (e.g. Sheffield to Blackpool was a direct service under BR).

Tying everything together into the congested Airport branch is a real waste of resources. The tail is wagging the dog.

I am not suggesting, and do not believe anyone else is suggesting, this idea be implemented until Platforms 15 and 16 at Manchester Piccadilly are built.

 

[billh]

Up the hill from Vic., Branch off at Miles Platting, then via Denton, Reddish (I think), and thus into Stockport.
Now-a-days such a service could use the Windsor Link and into the through line (P14 or 15) at Pic. Save an hour, even with a Black 5! In those days the Windsor Link was a mass of half derelict sidings, just glimpsed from the train as it ran round the bend into Salford.

I remember the Colne trains- name boards on the 4(?) coaches. sometimes a Jubilee 5XP. Route was Miles Platting- Droylsden Station Jct-Ashton Moss Jct (not North or South!) -Denton Jct -Stockport.
Could be done still,though slightly longer- via Ashton Moss North, Crowthorne, Denton,Stockport. I think Vic to Stockport is now about 24mins for sometimes diverted trains. Advantage is not blocking 13/14 at Picc.
Bill

 

[Clip]

Around mid 2017 Bolton will gain another nine car through platform, presuming the new Platform 5 is equal or greater in length that the existing parallel Platform 4. In theory at least this will allow a Class 390 to be turned around without wrecking the current timetable. Although continuing to Preston or Blackpool North and turning the unit around there would be considerably easier.
.

But does it have the staff facilities though? And an area to restock the train whilst it is there? What about driver and staff diagrams would they need extra staff to facilitate this or would they have to crew change back at Manchester which leads me to ask would the extra dwell time for a staff changeover there be possible due to pathing of other trains? And to end all the Q's - would all this time taken not be better served to not just having people change at Manchester as they presently do now?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But does it have the staff facilities though? And an area to restock the train whilst it is there? What about driver and staff diagrams would they need extra staff to facilitate this or would they have to crew change back at Manchester which leads me to ask would the extra dwell time for a staff changeover there be possible due to pathing of other trains? And to end all the Q's - would all this time taken not be better served to not just having people change at Manchester as they presently do now?

I tend to think that odd one or two a day services aren't really worth having, and that it would work better if time and money was spent improving the quality of connections.

 

[backontrack]

Well, it's a relatively simple thing to do. Would there be capacity/facilities to stop at Oxford Road and Salford Crescent as well?