Will Bolton ever have a direct train to London?

[Howardh]

When we've been electrified, there's nothing to stop Glasgow-Preston-London trains calling at Bolton/Manchester.

No idea of the max speed they could attain (will the line allow pendo's?) but I'm sure at the right time of day a direct service would be popular.

What are the chances? Is it even possible after the Deansgate-Picc alterations and improvements??

 

[Starmill]

A direct service is definitely an aspiration.

It doesn't seem sensible for it to run all the way to Glasgow to me really, but could run London to Preston and call at Oxford Road, Salford Crescent, Bolton and Chorley beyond Manchester Piccadilly. Alternatively a Sunderland-style arrangement of morning and evening could start up fairly soon.

 

[thealexweb]

I believe the maximum speed on the Bolton route will increase from 75mph to 100mph. Much of the track relaying to achieve this is already under way. There will be no support for tilting.

And there is no reason why Virgin Trains physically cannot run this route. Class 390s have been dragged through Bolton many times during disruption / engineering works and for empty stock movements.

Shortly after the 2012 franchise fiasco Virgin Trains West Coast committed themselves to one train per day from Bolton to London Euston by 2016. Presumably that means the December 2016 when Phase 4 of the North West Electrification was supposed to be completed, now whether they actually fulfill this promise is doubtful at best.

It is absolutely madness that London - Manchester - Scotland is not a through route given that even London - Birmingham - Scotland is now a through route. As a very frequent Bolton to Edinburgh traveller I would welcome this very long overdue service.
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A direct service is definitely an aspiration.

It doesn't seem sensible for it to run all the way to Glasgow to me really, but could run London to Preston and call at Oxford Road, Salford Crescent, Bolton and Chorley beyond Manchester Piccadilly. Alternatively a Sunderland-style arrangement of morning and evening could start up fairly soon.

Oxford Road's platforms will be 8 x 23m in length post Northern Hub. I am not saying this makes it impossible (see 11 car Class 390s calling at Haymarket just fine) it is just an observation. Salford Crescent an Chorley are more doubtful though, being only 7 x 23m and 6 x 23m in length especially.

Bolton's Platform 3 and 4 can take a nine car Class 390s with all doors able to open. Also the length is there for a double Class 221 to open all doors. An 11 car Class 390 however would overhang.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'd have thought a Blackburn-Bolton-Manchester-Euston service would be a viable open-access route, but for the lack of any EPS-capable diesel units being available...

 

[Howardh]

Thanks for the info - I'm heartened that it might actually happen!
Although if there is just one train, it will probably be a peak service and way out of day-trippers pockets.
Would also be nice to get to Glasgow and Edinburgh without changing, I don't think there are any TPE trains going through Bolton doing this now?

 

[Bletchleyite]

A direct service is definitely an aspiration.

It doesn't seem sensible for it to run all the way to Glasgow to me really, but could run London to Preston and call at Oxford Road, Salford Crescent, Bolton and Chorley beyond Manchester Piccadilly. Alternatively a Sunderland-style arrangement of morning and evening could start up fairly soon.

To me, the best way to do that would be to purchase some more suitable[1] rolling stock to free up Pendolinos, and replace the TPE Manchester-Scotland services with the continuation of one of the three trains per hour from London to Manchester on to Scotland using Pendolinos, running via Bolton and calling there. Bolton or no, to me that makes sense and would provide a proper InterCity service with proper capacity as well as some more useful through journey opportunities.

[1] You could, for example, buy IEPs to operate on the London-Brum services that do not continue on to Scotland. Very little time would be lost due to lack of tilt.
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It is absolutely madness that London - Manchester - Scotland is not a through route given that even London - Birmingham - Scotland is now a through route.

I very much agree, per my other post. This would make a massive amount of sense. Proper InterCity trains for a proper InterCity route, and some additional through journey opportunities.

 

[asylumxl]

[1] You could, for example, buy IEPs to operate on the London-Brum services that do not continue on to Scotland. Very little time would be lost due to lack of tilt.

I was under the impression there was a tilting AT300 option available. Why not just order them with tilting and take advantage of the EPS speeds?

 

[Howardh]

I suppose if we ever did get inter-city services again (hopefully more than one per day) I wonder if I could ask Santa for a first-class lounge?

One step at a time....

 

[NotATrainspott]

I was under the impression there was a tilting AT300 option available. Why not just order them with tilting and take advantage of the EPS speeds?

No, there is not. A tilting IEP would be a completely different train, albeit using some of the same technologies like friction-stir welding. Alstom will be the only company offering a UK tilt design at the moment, as they have offered to LNWR for their open access WCML service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, there is not. A tilting IEP would be a completely different train, albeit using some of the same technologies like friction-stir welding. Alstom will be the only company offering a UK tilt design at the moment, as they have offered to LNWR for their open access WCML service.

If Pendolinos are being built for that, the line is still open so West Coast could of course instead have more Pendolinos!

 

[Bertie the bus]

It is absolutely madness that London - Manchester - Scotland is not a through route given that even London - Birmingham - Scotland is now a through route. As a very frequent Bolton to Edinburgh traveller I would welcome this very long overdue service.

It isn't madness at all, in fact it would be stupid to introduce such a service. There are direct Manchester - London and Manchester - Scotland services and people travelling from Lancashire, Cumbria and Glasgow - London don't want to be trundling half way round northern England en-route to their destination.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It isn't madness at all, in fact it would be stupid to introduce such a service. There are direct Manchester - London and Manchester - Scotland services and people travelling from Lancashire, Cumbria and Glasgow - London don't want to be trundling half way round northern England before reaching their destination.

Take a London-Scotland via Brum service and see who's travelling where and where from. You will be surprised. Not only has introducing those services added significant extra capacity, but also a big chunk of that capacity has filled with passengers, many of whom are doing non-London journeys that cross Brum, or are choosing London-Edinburgh with West Coast instead of East Coast for whatever reason.

 

[asylumxl]

No, there is not. A tilting IEP would be a completely different train, albeit using some of the same technologies like friction-stir welding. Alstom will be the only company offering a UK tilt design at the moment, as they have offered to LNWR for their open access WCML service.

I guess they removed the capability from their train options.

 

[Bevan Price]

Bolton used to have services to/from London until the 1960s. Well - portions off Euston / Manchester services, detached / attached at Stockport, and running to/from Colne via Bolton, Blackburn & Accrington. Only one or two a day - with another running to Colne via Clifton Junction, Bury & Accrington .

 

[Howardh]

It isn't madness at all, in fact it would be stupid to introduce such a service. There are direct Manchester - London and Manchester - Scotland services and people travelling from Lancashire, Cumbria and Glasgow - London don't want to be trundling half way round northern England en-route to their destination.

Whoa there...what's the combined population of Bolton and surrounding areas that don't have direct access to London? For the sake of a short busride to Trinity Street rather than the long tramride to Picc even people the west of Bury could use the service. So we're looking at well over 300k, maybe 400k. That's a lot greater than some of the towns on the direct route where trains stop! EDIT Bolton is even, eventually, going to have it's permanent bus station adjacent-ish to Trinity Street which I'm sure will attract more onto the trains.
If passengers want to go London - Glasgow with as few stops as possible that's fine and can be done. They can keep off the *trundling* train!

 

[Bertie the bus]

Then you extend a couple of Manchester services to Preston via Bolton, which I think is what was planned by FirstGroup. You certainly don't divert Anglo-Scottish services via Manchester. It's a completely ridiculous idea.

 

[clagmonster]

Then you extend a couple of Manchester services to Preston via Bolton, which I think is what was planned by FirstGroup. You certainly don't divert Anglo-Scottish services via Manchester. It's a completely ridiculous idea.

I think the idea was that the existing Anglo-Scottish services remain as they are, but some London-Manchester are extended to Scotland, thus providing a direct service between Bolton and Euston and also between Stockport and either Macc/Stoke or Wilmslow and Scotland. I would imagine such an idea would replace some of the Airport-Scotland runs.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Even if that was the idea it doesn't make it any more sensible. Where would the stock come from? What about the significant number of people who use the TPE services to travel to Manchester Airport?

It is just one of the typical 'I live in this town which makes it the most important town in Western Europe and should have connections to every city in the country' threads.

 

[WatcherZero]

Extending some services to Bolton was in the bids before the direct award. Since then all ive heard is they were considering having the first and last services of the day start/terminate in Bolton while Piccadilly 13/14 isn't particularly busy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even if that was the idea it doesn't make it any more sensible. Where would the stock come from? What about the significant number of people who use the TPE services to travel to Manchester Airport?

My view on these being a waste of DMUs/premium EMUs is well known, I believe, so provided they are replaced with a Class 319 service I don't think this is all that bad a thing. Indeed, I've commented before that I would replace them with an Airport Express type shuttle from a dedicated platform at Picc on a 10 or 15 minute frequency using EMUs (e.g. 319s) and free up much needed 185s and 350s. Works for Heathrow and Stansted.

It is just one of the typical 'I live in this town which makes it the most important town in Western Europe and should have connections to every city in the country' threads.

I live neither near nor in Bolton, nor do I ever have a need to travel there. MKC already has a direct service to Scotland - the phenomenally successful Brum diversion. So that statement is false.

As for stock, I have already explained where that would come from - replace the stock on Euston-Brum short runs with something else e.g. IEP/New Pendolino.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'd have thought a Blackburn-Bolton-Manchester-Euston service would be a viable open-access route, but for the lack of any EPS-capable diesel units being available...

I like the idea, but wouldn't the single track sections between Bolton and Blackburn pose a capacity/pathing problem for this? (OK - even before you consider the lack of paths at the London end )

 

[class26]

My view on these being a waste of DMUs/premium EMUs is well known, I believe, so provided they are replaced with a Class 319 service I don't think this is all that bad a thing. Indeed, I

I live neither near nor in Bolton, nor do I ever have a need to travel there. MKC already has a direct service to Scotland - the phenomenally successful Brum diversion. So that statement is false.

As for stock, I have already explained where that would come from - replace the stock on Euston-Brum short runs with something else e.g. IEP/New Pendolino.

Brum shorts can only be operated with Pendolinos as the fast lines on the south WCML must have tilt and no IEP or any variants will or could have tilt. That would mean a further batch of Pendolinos being built.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Shortly after the 2012 franchise fiasco Virgin Trains West Coast committed themselves to one train per day from Bolton to London Euston by 2016. Presumably that means the December 2016 when Phase 4 of the North West Electrification was supposed to be completed, now whether they actually fulfill this promise is doubtful at best.

No, they didn't. It was said to be in the bids for the failed 2012 franchise, but was not part of the Direct Award so it is not a commitment.
The DfT eventually asked for Shrewsbury and Blackpool, which have now started, but not Bolton.
The bids for 2017 might produce something, but the problem preventing through Euston-Manchester-Scotland services is that TPE is the incumbent.
Euston-Manchester Pendolinos at Piccadilly P13/14 are also unwelcome, at least until P15/16 come in.

 

[dk1]

I see no reason why once the wires go live that some Pendolinos cannot serve Bolton in marginal time UP road early morning returning in the evening assuming this works with maintainence requirements at Longsight.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I've commented before that I would replace them with an Airport Express type shuttle from a dedicated platform at Picc on a 10 or 15 minute frequency using EMUs (e.g. 319s) and free up much needed 185s and 350s.

What dedicated bay platform at Manchester Piccadilly do you make reference to, as are not platforms 11 and 12 rather shorter than some of the others.

If you take out any one of the bay platforms there to use as a dedicated platform for your shuttle at Manchester Piccadilly, would this not cause any operational difficulties? There already exists a Manchester Airport - Manchester Piccadilly service currently operated by Class 323 units that supplements the Crewe - Manchester Airport - Manchester Piccadilly service which normally uses one of the middle bay platforms, so the matter of the Class 185 and 350/4 units that has been referred to need not enter into that equation.

 

[Howardh]

The DfT eventually asked for Shrewsbury and Blackpool,

That would do...Blackpool-Preston-Bolton-Picc-Stockport-Stoke-MK-Watford-Euston

 

[NotATrainspott]

My view on these being a waste of DMUs/premium EMUs is well known, I believe, so provided they are replaced with a Class 319 service I don't think this is all that bad a thing. Indeed, I've commented before that I would replace them with an Airport Express type shuttle from a dedicated platform at Picc on a 10 or 15 minute frequency using EMUs (e.g. 319s) and free up much needed 185s and 350s. Works for Heathrow and Stansted.

Manchester Airport has the service it's got because it's a not-terrible place to terminate all the trains running through P13/14, not because the airport actually needs an absurdly high frequency service to Manchester city centre. If you wanted to make major changes to services between Piccadilly and the Airport, arguably the best thing to build would be a flyover or underpass at Ardwick so that trains from the west wouldn't have to cross the throat of the terminating platforms. If I'm not mistaken, this was considered to be an alternative to the Ordsall Chord works, but it would still have benefits even if it weren't used for the main TransPennine services. It would allow some of the trains to the Airport to be cut back and combined instead with services to Hadfield/Glossop, Marple etc. Otherwise, you would need to provide the infrastructure to turn back trains at some other arbitrary point on the line to the airport.

 

[L&Y Robert]

Just a fragment of irrelevant nostalgia:
Way back in the 50s we used to have a direct service to and from London Euston from Colne, Nelson, Burnley, Accrington, Blackburn, Bolton, Manchester Vic. It called at Burnley approx. 13-30 every weekday. 5 coaches and Black5 in charge usually. Of course, things are much better now-a-days, single tracks everywhere, Pacers, Metrolink er - link in Manchester. Ah, yes . . .

 

[Howardh]

Just a fragment of irrelevant nostalgia:
Way back in the 50s we used to have a direct service to and from London Euston from Colne, Nelson, Burnley, Accrington, Blackburn, Bolton, Manchester Vic. It called at Burnley approx. 13-30 every weekday. 5 coaches and Black5 in charge usually. Of course, things are much better now-a-days, single tracks everywhere, Pacers, Metrolink er - link in Manchester. Ah, yes . . .

Interesting! How would it have got from Manchester Victoria to London? Are any of the lines it used to London now disused (Eg Grand central)?

 

[L&Y Robert]

Interesting! How would it have got from Manchester Victoria to London? Are any of the lines it used to London now disused (Eg Grand central)?

Up the hill from Vic., Branch off at Miles Platting, then via Denton, Reddish (I think), and thus into Stockport.
Now-a-days such a service could use the Windsor Link and into the through line (P14 or 15) at Pic. Save an hour, even with a Black 5! In those days the Windsor Link was a mass of half derelict sidings, just glimpsed from the train as it ran round the bend into Salford.