Will 360115 be written off?

[QSK19]

In light of the crash last week, I assume there is a decent chance that damage to 360115 is severe enough to write it off. I defer to engineering expertise here (and no doubt this may spark another thread).

If it is indeed written off, does EMR get some sort of rebate (whether through insurance or a refund by the refurbisher) or is the contract price fixed given the crash constitutes force majeure?

 

[43096]

In light of the crash last week, I assume there is a decent chance that damage to 360115 is severe enough to write it off. I defer to engineering expertise here (and no doubt this may spark another thread).

If it is indeed written off, does EMR get some sort of rebate (whether through insurance or a refund by the refurbisher) or is the contract price fixed given the crash constitutes force majeure?

360115 is almost certainly a write off. What happens is dependent on agreement between Angel, EMR and the relevant insurers.

 

[Amos390]

I understand that this thread is currently based on 810015, but I think it’s worth bringing the 360 up too, as that’s the one I’ve heard the most of it being more likely to not be fixed due to the extensive damage to the inside of the cab, is this the case or not?

 

[Acathater]

For the 360, it's a 24 year old design using outdated technology and long out of production. I can't see much being spent on it, unless there's a spare cab stored somewhere

 

[Snow1964]

I think it’s worth bringing the 360 up too, as that’s the one I’ve heard the most of it being more likely to not be fixed due to the extensive damage to the inside of the cab, is this the case or not?

Did they store any parts from the old Heathrow connect 360s?

Plenty of units have been reformed using a vehicle that started in another set.

 

[Zomboid]

Did they store any parts from the old Heathrow connect 360s?

Plenty of units have been reformed using a vehicle that started in another set.

Aren't there 3 of them up the mountain in Wales? Wouldn't like to speculate how useable any of them are.

 

[Snow1964]

Aren't there 3 of them up the mountain in Wales? Wouldn't like to speculate how useable any of them are.

The bodyshells of those 360s ought to be not mangled, so even if one is used and equipment swapped over, (if they are available), might be easier than trying to rebuild the accident one.

Even if RAIB have whole train currently, probably not going to need to retain majority of it for that long, just the part they are interested in.

 

[anthony263]

Shane 204 and 205 were scrapped one of them would have become handy right now.

Mind you the way progress is coming with that test centre in. Onnlwyn id say if 360115 is a right off then maybe a deal could be done for one of those remaining 360/2's

 

[Clarence Yard]

I would be very surprised if they bother - 360115 will just be written off without replacement.

 

[DelW]

Since the EMR 360s are being used on an entirely different route from that for which they were built, it's unlikely that the fleet size is exactly what would ideally be required to meet the current timetable needs. So a reduction by one may not be significant.

 

[swt_passenger]

Since the EMR 360s are being used on an entirely different route from that for which they were built, it's unlikely that the fleet size is exactly what would ideally be required to meet the current timetable needs. So a reduction by one may not be significant.

The fleet size allowed for regular 12 car services, but I believe that was kicked into the long grass. In which case I’d agree one unit will hardly be missed.

 

[Strathclyder]

It will likely be a write-off given the damage sustained and no replacement will be forthcoming, and as a result as EMR will just absorb the loss as the plan for regular 12-car services hasn't materialized as @swt_passenger mentions. I really doubt that it would be worthwhile refurbishing/modding one of the remaining 360/2s to replace it unless plans suddenly and drastically change (unlikely at best). The best outcome I can see for 115 itself is any usable/worthwhile spares - if any - being recovered after the RAIB hand it back before being disposed of.

It would be first UK Desiro unit to be scrapped due to accident damage if this indeed happens, though I do remember there being early, and in the end unfounded, speculation on this site at the time that at least one of the 350s involved in the Watford accident would be a write-off due to the damage sustained.

 

[westcoaster]

360115 has turned its last wheel on the national network in my opinion. There is no way anyone will put there name to it being used again, from some of the pictures one carriage was buried well into another maybe the pan car due to weight. ill see if i can find that picture.

edit i found the image, in the link below.

you can see how far the sole bar is under the carriage infront.

Bedford train crash driver 'passed red signal before fatal collision'

Investigators from the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) say the East Midlands Railway driver who died in the Bedford train crash passed a red signal moments before the fatal collision. A total of 162 people were injured, with 53 still in hospital

www.belfastlive.co.uk

 

[Helvellyn]

Because, as things stand, EMR only need 12 out of 21 units in service I expect 115 to be written off.

However, the refurbishment with 2+2 seating means capacity drops and these trains in the peaks are full and standing to/from Bedford with even some dreaded middle seats in the current 3+2 layout occupied.

If EMR thinks it may need to address the staffing problems to move to a 12-car operation, and it can get DfT and other parties in board, trying to take 360201-203 might make sense. But in this climate I suspect it will have to make do with a fleet of 20 units and if 12-car operation ever happens it won't involve every Diagram.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Because, as things stand, EMR only need 12 out of 21 units in service I expect 115 to be written off.

However, the refurbishment with 2+2 seating means capacity drops and these trains in the peaks are full and standing to/from Bedford with even some dreaded middle seats in the current 3+2 layout occupied.

If EMR thinks it may need to address the staffing problems to move to a 12-car operation, and it can get DfT and other parties in board, trying to take 360201-203 might make sense. But in this climate I suspect it will have to make do with a fleet of 20 units and if 12-car operation ever happens it won't involve every Diagram.

The original intention (pre-Covid) was, I think, have potentially all trains as 12-car and presumably use 18/21 for weekday service (i.e. 6 formations of 3 units).

I guess what they might actually do now is something like 15 or 16/20 and have 4-5 12-car sets and 1-2 8-car, with the 8 car trains on the shoulder departures e.g. the formation that operates the 1545 and 1847 from St Pancras.

 

[Russel]

The crumple zones at the end of each carriage have, well, crumpled, I'm no expert but it's fairly clear this is well beyond repair.

Mind you the way progress is coming with that test centre in. Onnlwyn id say if 360115 is a right off then maybe a deal could be done for one of those remaining 360/2's

These have been in store for a couple of years now, unless they've been connected up to some kind of shore power, will they be in any state to return to service?

 

[anthony263]

The crumple zones at the end of each carriage have, well, crumpled, I'm no expert but it's fairly clear this is well beyond repair.



These have been in store for a couple of years now, unless they've been connected up to some kind of shore power, will they be in any state to return to service?

So have the 175s so they probably could with work .whether or not EMR will both on the other hand

 

[Russel]

So have the 175s so they probably could with work .whether or not EMR will both on the other hand

The 175s were in handed back by TFW in 2023 so were in store for under 3 years and aren't exactly showering themselves in glory in Cornwall, the 360s were handed back by TFL in 2020 so have been in store for 6 years at this point, their condition now will depend on what maintenance they are receiving and how often they are connected to a power source.

 

[Zomboid]

The ex-TfL 360s might be able to offer bodyshells which haven't been in a crash. Any other components would be a bonus... There's probably quite a bit that can be salvaged from the crashed one, and given the number of desiros that are knocking around, spares are probably not going to be too hard to come by for the foreseeable future.

But if EMR have 20 units now they've lost one and a full 12 car operation needs 18, I don't see why they'd do it.

 

[Helvellyn]

But if EMR have 20 units now they've lost one and a full 12 car operation needs 18, I don't see why they'd do it.

They wouldn't be able to run a full 12-car operation with 20 units - 2 spare is too tight. For quite a while they struggled to run a full 8-car operation that only needed 12 out of 21 units!

What doesn't help EMR is that light maintenance happens at Bedford Caudwell and heavier maintenance at Northampton. Stabling/servicing takes place at Cricklewood and stabling/cleaning at Kettering. So basically a lot of ECS working outside of the core Corby - St Pancras runs.

 

[Zomboid]

They wouldn't be able to run a full 12-car operation with 20 units - 2 spare is too tight. For quite a while they struggled to run a full 8-car operation that only needed 12 out of 21 units!

It did occur to me when writing that that the crash involved only a 4 car. If it had been an 8 then it's not beyond possible that the back set might have concertina-ed up in a similar fashion and ended up beyond repair.

But it also shows that on that day a full 8 car service wasn't being delivered from 21 units.

 

[The exile]

It did occur to me when writing that that the crash involved only a 4 car. If it had been an 8 then it's not beyond possible that the back set might have concertina-ed up in a similar fashion and ended up beyond repair.

But it also shows that on that day a full 8 car service wasn't being delivered from 21 units.

Hadn’t a second set just been detached? In-service failures (if that was the reason) could happen even if you had 100 units to cover 12 diagrams.

 

[RailWonderer]

It's particularly sad for me to see as I used these very regularly for a decade up and down the GE. This unit was the only 360 that National Express vinyl wrapped in NX grey livery in 2008 before GA reverted it back to a generic dark blue like the rest of the fleet. GA and NX before them ran 20/21 units daily in the week, but most days it was more like 18-19/21 with a lot of 12 car running and a lot of splitting and joining during the day back when they were far more reliable and maintained by Siemens themselves.

To me it was certainly a write-off the moment I saw the images of the crash.

 

[Russel]

It's particularly sad for me to see as I used these very regularly for a decade up and down the GE. This unit was the only 360 that National Express vinyl wrapped in NX grey livery in 2008 before GA reverted it back to a generic dark blue like the rest of the fleet. GA and NX before them ran 20/21 units daily in the week, but most days it was more like 18-19/21 with a lot of 12 car running and a lot of splitting and joining during the day back when they were far more reliable and maintained by Siemens themselves.

To me it was certainly a write-off the moment I saw the images of the crash.

I used to use them regular on the Liverpool Street - Clacton run, I'd forgotten all about 115 carrying the NXEA livery, I always thought it looked really smart.