Wigan to Liverpool electrification.

[Peter Lanky]

A question for the experts here as none of the articles I've read seems to want to tell me.

When Wigan NW to Lime St is electrified, supposedly by the end of 2014, what type of trains are going to be used?
As Blackpool-Preston will not be electrified for some time yet, will the fast Wigan-Liverpool service continue to be diesel from Blackpool or will it be electric starting at Preston or somewhere else?
What is the plan for the Wigan-Liverpool 'slow' trains commencing at Wigan?
Is there any plan for Scotland to Liverpool services?

. . . and on a slightly different topic:

When the Manchester-Preston line is electrified 2 years later, will all Scotland to Manchester Airport services return to passing through Bolton, or will Wigan NW retain some services to the airport.

Any useful links that explain all this would be appreciated.

 

[David Goddard]

Some interesting points raised, I expect the answer to most will be class 319s covering anything under the wires throughout, with 156s staying on for the balance (ie Liverpool to Blackpool) until wired.

With regards to the latter, clearly anyone travelling end to end (ie beyond Preston to Manchester), would hope for services to use the quickest route (ie Wigan), but to send all this way would clearly break some of the present links from the Bolton area to Blackpool. A Liverpool to Scotland service has been raised quite a lot, and personally I think this would be a great boon, how it operates will be another thing.

 

[edwin_m]

I agree the Wigan terminator will probably go over to 319 when that section is wired, as will the Blackpools once wiring to Blackpool is complete.

The plan seems to be for Manchester-Scotland to remain via Wigan, with trains on the Bolton-Preston section mainly continuing to Blackpool. This should make it easier to provide more capacity on the Bolton route without having to run trains nearly empty all the way to Scotland.

In principle this makes it possible to split and join a Liverpool portion at Wigan. There are several practical difficulties including not having enough spare compatible EMUs, and the problem that if a train needs 8 cars at Manchester it would be a 12-car north of Wigan and might not fit the platforms at Glasgow or Edinburgh. Despite these difficulties I think this is the most likely means of getting a Liverpool-Scotland service, as increasing freight demand and services off HS2 in a few years mean that nobody will agree to another passenger path between Wigan and Scotland.

 

[thealexweb]

With regards to the latter, clearly anyone travelling end to end (ie beyond Preston to Manchester), would hope for services to use the quickest route (ie Wigan), but to send all this way would clearly break some of the present links from the Bolton area to Blackpool.

This has been discussed at length already. At the moment both routes have exactly the same journey time, comparing the time it takes for a unit to get from Ordsall Junction to Euxton Junction. This is despite fewer stops via Wigan (2 vs 1), higher speed limits (75 vs 90), faster accelerating EMUs, etc.

Post-electrification the Bolton route will be 10-15 minutes faster.

 

[Class 170101]

Post-electrification the Bolton route will be 10-15 minutes faster.

That assumes all trains are electric by this time. If not some trains remaining diesel could delay the faster electric trains.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

All this will be decided in the Rail North/DfT franchise spec/ITT to be published in December for the 2016 franchise (consultation in progress).
The only rolling stock option in the short term is Class 319s, but they are only becoming available slowly.
For at least a year there will be DMUs on the electric routes out of Liverpool.
The potential route swaps between TPE and Northern (also in the ITT) may change some of the service/rolling stock options.
For some time, the pressure will be on converting diesel services to electric so that DMUs can be cascaded to other services.

 

[Peter Lanky]

Thanks for the info. Not being an expert, I've just had to read up on what a class 319 is. Wherever is introduced, it will be a great improvement on the underpowered Northern Rail 'buses on tacks' trains usually available on trains travelling East and West out of Wigan, and hopefully end the farce of 2-coach trains crammed to the rafters.

One question though, and I'm not sure if there is a definitive answer. From reading up, the class 319s are pretty old stock and seem to have been used in the SE, so why does us always appear that we always end up with cast-offs from other regions, which then end up with nice new shiny trains? The exception being the class 350s between Manchester Airport and Scotland which are very nice (when not replaced last minute by a diesel).

 

[AM9]

Thanks for the info. Not being an expert, I've just had to read up on what a class 319 is. Wherever is introduced, it will be a great improvement on the underpowered Northern Rail 'buses on tacks' trains usually available on trains travelling East and West out of Wigan, and hopefully end the farce of 2-coach trains crammed to the rafters.

One question though, and I'm not sure if there is a definitive answer. From reading up, the class 319s are pretty old stock and seem to have been used in the SE, so why does us always appear that we always end up with cast-offs from other regions, which then end up with nice new shiny trains? The exception being the class 350s between Manchester Airport and Scotland which are very nice (when not replaced last minute by a diesel).

This thread has 445 posts since 5 June where the many reasons have been explained more than once:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=101608

Your first paragraph is positive, - don't get into the 'not fair' mode without understanding why certain stock is new and other types are cascaded.

 

[Peter Lanky]

This thread has 445 posts since 5 June where the many reasons have been explained more than once:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=101608

Your first paragraph is positive, - don't get into the 'not fair' mode without understanding why certain stock is new and other types are cascaded.

I've just checked the first 10 pages of that thread and it hasn't really explained the reason. A lot of comments from both sides of the argument that I've heard before, but nothing to really explain. I still think it's a fair question that I've asked, and deserves some sort of explanation, if there is an explanation.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I've just checked the first 10 pages of that thread and it hasn't really explained the reason. A lot of comments from both sides of the argument that I've heard before, but nothing to really explain. I still think it's a fair question that I've asked, and deserves some sort of explanation, if there is an explanation.

Put briefly, new trains would sink the business case for electrification and there would be no new wires at all.
Plus the 319s are available, and have to go somewhere (they are also possibly going to Thames Valley/South Wales).
Plenty of other areas have 1980s electric trains (eg SWT, Scotrail, GA).

 

[AM9]

I've just checked the first 10 pages of that thread and it hasn't really explained the reason. A lot of comments from both sides of the argument that I've heard before, but nothing to really explain. I still think it's a fair question that I've asked, and deserves some sort of explanation, if there is an explanation.

Then it would be more effective to ask your questions on the thread specifically created to discuss the subject rather than create yet another distraction on the subject. Although your question has essentially been answered more than once in that thread, the many points of view expressed in the thread may help and and you may be able to contribute for the benefit of others.