Widnes to Disley ticket: permitted via Manchester Victoria?

[steve a]

I have an annual season ticket from Widnes to Disley, via Warrington Central. On occasions, there have been serious delays due to various reasons (a few weeks ago, Piccadilly was chaotic because of an overhead cable problem).

I wondered if I would be able to use my ticket from Warrington Bank Quay to Manchester Victoria instead of Central to Piccadilly? It's not particulary convenient but of Piccadilly was closed for some reason, it might be a useful alternative!

 

[bb21]

Not valid strictly speaking, but it is a reasonable route so I doubt guards would take exception if you travel that way.

In times of disruption, it is even more likely that discretion would be exercised if you explain to the guard the situation.

 

[Merseysider]

The route isn't valid according to the National Routeing Guide, however I suspect this was a permitted route at privatisation and would therefore be 'protected'.

The TPE website says the route is valid; see attached screenshot. But to be honest I don't think you'd even need an itinerary, especially if there was disruption.

 

[Romilly]

However, the screenshot shows a route via Manchester Piccadilly, whereas the OP was asking about a route via Manchester Victoria. I haven't been able to get the journey planners to show a route via Manchester Victoria, but not via Manchester Piccadilly, for a Widnes to Disley journey.

 

[button_boxer]

However, the screenshot shows a route via Manchester Piccadilly, whereas the OP was asking about a route via Manchester Victoria. I haven't been able to get the journey planners to show a route via Manchester Victoria, but not via Manchester Piccadilly, for a Widnes to Disley journey.

Is it possible to travel from Victoria to Disley without going via Piccadilly?

 

[bb21]

Not without going on a massive detour

 

[button_boxer]

Not without going on a massive detour

I suppose technically you could do Victoria-Huddersfield-Sheffield-Stockport-Disley, but somehow I can't see that being a permitted route.

 

[Merseysider]

However, the screenshot shows a route via Manchester Piccadilly, whereas the OP was asking about a route via Manchester Victoria. I haven't been able to get the journey planners to show a route via Manchester Victoria, but not via Manchester Piccadilly, for a Widnes to Disley journey.

That's because Disley can't be reached from Manchester Victoria.

By entering "avoid MCO" and "services that call at WBQ" into TPE's journey planner I was offered a route into Victoria with a walking transfer to Piccadilly.

Edited to add that the actual journey time would be less than shown as the walking interchanges allow a generous amount of time and there may be unofficial connections available. Either way, it's a permitted route.

 

[button_boxer]

Indeed, if you want to avoid Piccadilly completely then the best option I can see would be to travel from Runcorn instead of Widnes, and go via Crewe. Depending exactly where in Widnes you live this might not be as much of a detour as it seems.

Unfortunately I can't find one ticket that would allow both Widnes to Stockport via Piccadilly and Runcorn to Stockport via Crewe - Runcorn to Disley tickets are routed "via Crewe", and though the routes meet at Liverpool South Parkway tickets from there to Disley only want to let me go via Manchester.

 

[Rail Ranger]

A Widnes to Disley ticket would not be valid on Metrolink between Victoria and Piccadilly.

 

[steve a]

Is it possible to travel from Victoria to Disley without going via Piccadilly?[/QUOT]

You can't by train. I'd have to catch a bus. The main problem is whether the portion of the season ticket from Warrington to Manchester would be valid from Bank Quay to Victoria? I've had mixed information from the station staff in Warrington.

The route would be :
walk to Bank Quay
Train to Earlestown change for Victoria.
140 bus to Stockport

This is just a contingency in case Piccadilly or Oxford Road are closed.

 

[bb21]

The Routeing Guide is not recursive so whether Warrington to Manchester is valid via Newton-le-Willows means nothing to the validity of a Widnes to Disley ticket.

 

[steve a]

The Routeing Guide is not recursive so whether Warrington to Manchester is valid via Newton-le-Willows means nothing to the validity of a Widnes to Disley ticket.

That would explain the different info I've had from the station staff. On one occasion, when the line through Central was closed due to a trespasser, I asked at Bank Quay if I could travel from there. They said my ticket wasn't valid for that route. On another occasion, on a Sunday when there was a replacement bus, the clerk at Central said It would be much quicker if I went to Bank Quay. He insisted that Bank Quay was in the same group as Central and my ticket was OK, but I was skeptical.

 

[steve a]

The Routeing Guide is not recursive so whether Warrington to Manchester is valid via Newton-le-Willows means nothing to the validity of a Widnes to Disley ticket.

Are you saying that Warrington to Manchester via Newton-le-Willows is NOT valid with a Widnes-Disley ticket?

If so, I'll get a Warrington-Stockport ticket when I renew. The reason I have a Widnes-Disley ticket is that it's the same price as Warrington-Stockport and I thought the additional bit at each end might be useful. I've never been to Disley, but have often gone to Widnes because the connections sometimes work out better. However, being able to catch a train from Piccadilly to either Warrington station might be more useful.

 

[kieron]

Are you saying that Warrington to Manchester via Newton-le-Willows is NOT valid with a Widnes-Disley ticket?

To be a valid route under the current routeing guide, it would have to be:
a) the shortest route (it isn't - that's via Glazebrook);
b) using a train which calls at Widnes and Disley (there are none); or
c) on a mapped route between an appropriate routeing point associated with Widnes and one associated with Disley (they all go via Glazebrook).

Warrington-Stockport (and Warrington-Disley) is a little different, as you can start from Warrington Bank Quay, and the shortest distance by train to Stockport or Disley is via Newton-le-Willows and Manchester Piccadilly.

The rules don't specify that this refers to routes exclusively by train, but this is an assumption you often see here.

That's what the published routeing guide says.

Until the end of last year, the routeing guide (which determines where a ticket can be used) had a rule in it which said that journeys no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route are also valid.

This rule (or something based on it) is probably what led the TPE site to give the itineraries JakeF found. If you can find something similar today which allows you to catch trains into Victoria around the times you would need them, you should have no problem if anyone does question your ticket.

While this is a case of journey planners using different rules to the published ones, it doesn't mean that either set of rules is necessarily bad, or that you can't rely on either when it suits you.

 

[steve a]

To be a valid route under the current routeing guide, it would have to be:
a) the shortest route (it isn't - that's via Glazebrook);
b) using a train which calls at Widnes and Disley (there are none); or
c) on a mapped route between an appropriate routeing point associated with Widnes and one associated with Disley (they all go via Glazebrook).

Warrington-Stockport (and Warrington-Disley) is a little different, as you can start from Warrington Bank Quay, and the shortest distance by train to Stockport or Disley is via Newton-le-Willows and Manchester Piccadilly.

The rules don't specify that this refers to routes exclusively by train, but this is an assumption you often see here.

That's what the published routeing guide says.

Until the end of last year, the routeing guide (which determines where a ticket can be used) had a rule in it which said that journeys no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route are also valid.

This rule (or something based on it) is probably what led the TPE site to give the itineraries JakeF found. If you can find something similar today which allows you to catch trains into Victoria around the times you would need them, you should have no problem if anyone does question your ticket.

While this is a case of journey planners using different rules to the published ones, it doesn't mean that either set of rules is necessarily bad, or that you can't rely on either when it suits you.

Thanks

So the 3 mile rule is no longer valid and you have to use the shorted route regardless?

It makes it a bit awkward on a Sunday (going to Piccadilly) as there are no trains from my local station and I have to walk to Warrington Central - passing Bank Quay on the way!

 

[kieron]

So the 3 mile rule is no longer valid and you have to use the shorted route regardless?

Not quite. It's not in the routeing guide, but is in the journey planners for most journeys. It wouldn't have helped you here in any case, as Warrington-Stockport is 5 1/2 miles further via Newton-le-Willows than via Glazebrook, and walking from Victoria to Piccadilly only takes 3/4 miles from that.

Going further on your own initiative would have more effect on the journey length. There's nothing in the timetable used by journey planners about buses from Manchester to Stockport, though, so they won't suggest them.

You do make a good point about how useful validity via Warrington Bank Quay would be on a Sunday for a ticket from Sankey for Penketh. It may be worth bringing this up with Arriva Trains Wales (whose trains you would probably use), or maybe Northern.

 

[steve a]

Not quite. It's not in the routeing guide, but is in the journey planners for most journeys. It wouldn't have helped you here in any case, as Warrington-Stockport is 5 1/2 miles further via Newton-le-Willows than via Glazebrook, and walking from Victoria to Piccadilly only takes 3/4 miles from that.

Going further on your own initiative would have more effect on the journey length. There's nothing in the timetable used by journey planners about buses from Manchester to Stockport, though, so they won't suggest them.

You do make a good point about how useful validity via Warrington Bank Quay would be on a Sunday for a ticket from Sankey for Penketh. It may be worth bringing this up with Arriva Trains Wales (whose trains you would probably use), or maybe Northern.

Thanks

According a the booking clerk at Warrington Central, the Warrington and Manchester stations are grouped so that any combination of Warrington to Manchester is valid. Would this still apply to season tickets starting before Warrington and finishing after Manchester? (bearing in mind that I am allowed to make Warrington-Manchester journeys with a season ticket)

Another advantage of the Bank Quay route on a Sunday is that the last Warrington train from Piccadilly goes to Bank Quay.