DerekC
Established Member
And all done, according to the article, without interruption to traffic!
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Widened Lines
- Thread starter Mgameing123
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Fascinating thread this - always been an area of interest to me. Even more so now I've been doing some work on the new Museum of London project. Next time I'm doing something in the basement of the old Poultry Market or General Market I'll be looking for tunnels remnants!
DerekC
Established Member
I agree about the thread, and having had lots of involvement in Thameslink, a personal dimension for me also. Didn't know about the new Museum of London project - tell us more (without going too far OT, of course!)
Well the new Museum of London is going to occupy the former General and Poultry markets - this information is in the public domain. I've heard there is going to be some kind of window so visitors will be able to see the trains going past in the basement but I don't know whether that has been taken out of context. Anything else - I cannot say!
You can see where the tunnel fits into the plans here - https://museum.london/ - but it doesn't have the artist's impression of what it'll look like that was shown at the old museum's final weekend.
edit: here's an image https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-39880918
Thanks for the confirmation
I've found part 2 of that article; it's in http://graces-guide-s3-live.s3.amazonaws.com/gracesguide/e/e1/Eg18680228.pdf and there's also one about dealing with the sewers intersecting the route in http://graces-guide-s3-live.s3.amazonaws.com/gracesguide/9/9a/Eg18680214.pdf
The original of part 1 is in http://graces-guide-s3-live.s3.amazonaws.com/gracesguide/e/e6/Eg18680131.pdf
I've also been trying to dig further into whether or not Chalton Street Junction actually was anywhere near Chalton Street, and whether there's anything in the rumours that the extra tunnel under St Pancras forecourt was actually extended, as fostered by quotes such as these:
http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/hammersmith.html: "A new link was installed from a new junction called Chalton Street Junction, west of King's Cross, connecting the original eastbound track to the eastbound Widened Line in the unused tunnel under St. Pancras (extending it about 210m)." [Which of the various possibilities does "it" refer to?]
http://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/19286/widened-lines-euston: "...the name of the later junction between the Met and these tunnels was known as Chalton Street Junction - some 210m to the west of the forecourt. ... According to Alan Jackson's 'London's Metropolitan Railway' a 700 foot connection was built between Chalton Street and the original 1,200 foot tunnel below St Pancras forecourt."
My current thinking is that the rumour probably is not true, and has arisen from Alan Jackson (or someone) getting mixed up over what distances refer to what. Some of the distances can be measured with thoroughly adequate accuracy from the large scale OS maps showing the tunnels downloaded from the NLS site. "The original 1,200 foot tunnel below St Pancras forecourt" is quite wrong; it's blatantly much shorter. In fact it is "700 foot", pretty much exactly, from the blank end of the tunnel to the line of its intersection with the Midland tunnel. 210m is 700ft, rounded down from 213.36m. 1200ft appears to correspond to the distance from the blank end (which the new line does not reach) to the end of the platforms of KX Widened Lines station. Alternatively, 1200ft is 366m; the LU track distances map gives the distance between the old and new Met stations as 320m (probably more accurate than trying to measure round the curve), and the views of diverging trains in the LT Museum video referred to earlier make 45m or so a reasonable estimate of the length of track between the point it begins to diverge and the end of the platform, so "1200ft" is a plausible match for the length of what some original source might have talked of as "the extension".
It also makes little sense for them to have extended the tunnel; it would have been a huge amount of extra work compared with merely digging a connecting hole between the existing tunnels, and it wouldn't have given them any advantage to make up for it. Sticking to the existing tunnels still gives them enough length of the connecting line to use it as a loop to hold trains waiting to get on to the WL.
So I think it would be more accurate to say something like "A connection was built between what was named Chalton Street Junction and the Widened Lines, using the original 700ft tunnel beneath St Pancras forecourt. This gave the Met an additional 1200ft of track mileage from the junction to the platform end of the KXWL station." (The station of course still being the Met station as well at that time.)
Unfortunately it appears that to be properly confident I need to see the Act authorising the works, which would give the exact details and lengths of what bits of road they were allowed to dig up. This is the Metropolitan Railway (Various Powers) Act 1923. And as far as I can find out, although every other Metropolitan Railway act from the 1920s is available online, that particular one isn't. Which is a pain.
Another possibility would be the agreement between the Met and the Midland in 1919, and the post-Grouping version between the Met and the LMS in 1923, about the use of the tunnel. Can't find that online either.
The original of part 1 is in http://graces-guide-s3-live.s3.amazonaws.com/gracesguide/e/e6/Eg18680131.pdf
I've also been trying to dig further into whether or not Chalton Street Junction actually was anywhere near Chalton Street, and whether there's anything in the rumours that the extra tunnel under St Pancras forecourt was actually extended, as fostered by quotes such as these:
http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/hammersmith.html: "A new link was installed from a new junction called Chalton Street Junction, west of King's Cross, connecting the original eastbound track to the eastbound Widened Line in the unused tunnel under St. Pancras (extending it about 210m)." [Which of the various possibilities does "it" refer to?]
http://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/19286/widened-lines-euston: "...the name of the later junction between the Met and these tunnels was known as Chalton Street Junction - some 210m to the west of the forecourt. ... According to Alan Jackson's 'London's Metropolitan Railway' a 700 foot connection was built between Chalton Street and the original 1,200 foot tunnel below St Pancras forecourt."
My current thinking is that the rumour probably is not true, and has arisen from Alan Jackson (or someone) getting mixed up over what distances refer to what. Some of the distances can be measured with thoroughly adequate accuracy from the large scale OS maps showing the tunnels downloaded from the NLS site. "The original 1,200 foot tunnel below St Pancras forecourt" is quite wrong; it's blatantly much shorter. In fact it is "700 foot", pretty much exactly, from the blank end of the tunnel to the line of its intersection with the Midland tunnel. 210m is 700ft, rounded down from 213.36m. 1200ft appears to correspond to the distance from the blank end (which the new line does not reach) to the end of the platforms of KX Widened Lines station. Alternatively, 1200ft is 366m; the LU track distances map gives the distance between the old and new Met stations as 320m (probably more accurate than trying to measure round the curve), and the views of diverging trains in the LT Museum video referred to earlier make 45m or so a reasonable estimate of the length of track between the point it begins to diverge and the end of the platform, so "1200ft" is a plausible match for the length of what some original source might have talked of as "the extension".
It also makes little sense for them to have extended the tunnel; it would have been a huge amount of extra work compared with merely digging a connecting hole between the existing tunnels, and it wouldn't have given them any advantage to make up for it. Sticking to the existing tunnels still gives them enough length of the connecting line to use it as a loop to hold trains waiting to get on to the WL.
So I think it would be more accurate to say something like "A connection was built between what was named Chalton Street Junction and the Widened Lines, using the original 700ft tunnel beneath St Pancras forecourt. This gave the Met an additional 1200ft of track mileage from the junction to the platform end of the KXWL station." (The station of course still being the Met station as well at that time.)
Unfortunately it appears that to be properly confident I need to see the Act authorising the works, which would give the exact details and lengths of what bits of road they were allowed to dig up. This is the Metropolitan Railway (Various Powers) Act 1923. And as far as I can find out, although every other Metropolitan Railway act from the 1920s is available online, that particular one isn't. Which is a pain.
Another possibility would be the agreement between the Met and the Midland in 1919, and the post-Grouping version between the Met and the LMS in 1923, about the use of the tunnel. Can't find that online either.
If you are considering the widened lines and the circle generally perhaps this map of lost London rivers is helpful. These rivers crossed the Metropolitan Railway, and later the Metropolitan District.
The most notable is the one crossing Sloane Sq Station
Link goes to map image of lost london rivers
The most notable is the one crossing Sloane Sq Station
Link goes to map image of lost london rivers
Mgameing123
Member
You could go far and say it had alot of involvement in Crossrail too!
Having also been pointed at the TfL Property Asset Register Public Web Map, see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/above-ground-tube-maps.250073/#post-6267811, and having looked there and elsewhere, the impression I have is that a short new bit of tunnel was constructed under Midland Road and a bit further west, to link the 'forecourt tunnel' to the main Metropolitan Line at 'Chalton Street Junction', which I place between Midland Road and Ossulston Street.
It occurs to me that the whatever powers the LPTB obtained for the King's Cross alterations of c1940, with move of the Metropolitan/Circle platforms might also be revealing. (If nothing else, a short bit of tunnel and track was required to link the new eastbound platform to the eastbound line to Kings Cross Met (old)).
Here's a couple of photos from last week (which I somehow acquired) of what remains of the Smithfield Curve tunnel. First image - which has got a bit mangled - looks towards Snow Hill. Second image looks towards Smithfield where the tunnel has been truncated by the Poultry Market rebuild post-fire.
Mgameing123
Member
So were you standing inside the tunnel?
Mgameing123
Member
Thats a very wierd tunnel if you ask me.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
I'm guessing it's had a floor added about half way up, to convert what would be a very high space into two that would be of a useful height for things like storage shelves.
swt_passenger
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 7 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 34,239
It certainly matches the shape of the disused tunnel shown in the demolition photo, in the Railway magazine article I linked at the end of post #5. I expect the only bits kept were directly under buildings that were not rebuilt.
Mgameing123
Member
Oh ok.
Mgameing123
Member
The thing is from what I can tell. GWR used the Met line tracks so I don't really think so. But maybe they did for diversionary reasons.
- Status