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Widened Lines

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swt_passenger

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Wasnt cattle trains to Smithfield Market ine of the justufications for the line? Were there not undergrouhd sidings somewhere near the Farringdon triangle?
Sorry. Always struggled to place underground stuff with whats on the surface. Its not a place I know well.
Yes, lots. Many under Smithfield Market. The route to the GWR sidings is shown in the signalling diagrams if you follow the second link in post #2, between Farringdon and Aldersgate/Barbican, but nearer the latter.

Then the first London Reconnections article linked by @Pigeon in post #6 contains more info about the arrangements under Smithfield Market.



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Thanks for that, I'll have a gander. I presume there is nothing at all to see at the other end?
This location on the NLS 25” map shows the exact location in plan view. I reckon the angled section of wall at the west end of the public house must have been above the portal. It’s much clearer on Google‘s satellite view though, in fact it looks as if there’s a newish building under construction when last photographed.



Like @Pigeon noted earlier, I also think from checking a fairly recent cab view video there‘s nothing visible trackside any longer. Here’s the 2021 cab ride video, at 58m 57s it shows how difficult it is to see anything:
 
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Sad Sprinter

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Just before getting out of the tunnel arriving at the station southbound, the wall of the tunnel begins to curve away, for just far enough to see it's doing it, and then there's a barrier built across the hole, nearly parallel to the running line, made out of what looks like wood that may have been painted some colour other than black once upon a time underneath all the dirt. Not much to see and I had to go past it a couple of times to put the picture together.

However I have seen a cab ride video made after I was last there (which was quite a while ago) and it looks like they've Done Things in the meantime and it might not look like that any more. It's hard to tell anything because the quality isn't great and the camera can't handle the contrast between light and dark, as well as it not looking sideways, but it does look rather as if they might have hidden it.



See above conundrum re Chalton St Junction. The Midland built a spare extra bit of tunnel when they built St Pancras just in case it was ever needed for anything, to save the chance of having to have the forecourt dug up all over again. The eastern end of that tunnel now has the eastbound platform of the new Met/Circle station in it. For a few years before the new station was built, the tunnel was used for a loop line connecting the eastbound Met to the WL (the track being laid on the southern side of the tunnel, where the platform now is) and at this time the tunnel may have been partly extended, for one track only, no more than half way towards Euston; a contract was awarded to excavate this by cut and cover, but I haven't been able to dig anything up that would confirm to my satisfaction how much if any of it was actually executed. There is at least some extra length remaining unused down there, down the mysterious hole off the western end of the eastbound Met platform, which must go at least as far as the western edge of St Pancras forecourt, but I can't be sure whether there is or ever was any extra little wormhole running off the end of that. If such was ever built it was never used or intended for anything other than the bit of loop line.

Everyone these days says "to Euston" when talking about this, but that was never the idea. The LNWR were never interested in having a connection to the Met, and declined when asked. They had the North London route to Broad St, which gave them a better connection to that end of things than could ever be achieved over the congested and cramped Met route.

When the Victorians were kicking the idea around, it was "to Paddington" that they used to say. The GWR did want a better connection to their City goods terminal than was possible over the Met as it stood. This was still the idea after WW1, which led to installing the abovementioned loop line (and the associated crossover for the opposite direction) - it would allow GWR freights the most advantage possible from the Widened Lines in their existing form, without going to the hassle of building a proper extension.

Would a Euston connection have been built if the “City Terminus Railway” have been built?
 

Revaulx

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Slightly OT question: given that they had use of the Widened Lines, why did the GN also run commuter trains into Broad Street?

It’s only a couple of minutes’ walk from Moorgate but a massively longer way round by rail.

Was Broad Street used for longer distance/outer suburban traffic due to longer platforms or something?
 

Sad Sprinter

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Slightly OT question: given that they had use of the Widened Lines, why did the GN also run commuter trains into Broad Street?

It’s only a couple of minutes’ walk from Moorgate but a massively longer way round by rail.

Was Broad Street used for longer distance/outer suburban traffic due to longer platforms or something?

I was wondering the exact same thing the other day! I could only imagine it has something to do with capacity issues at Broad Street/Moorgate.

Plus, the original plan was to run local services down the Northern City Line to Moorgate too
 

Ken H

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I was wondering the exact same thing the other day! I could only imagine it has something to do with capacity issues at Broad Street/Moorgate.

Plus, the original plan was to run local services down the Northern City Line to Moorgate too
Built by the Great Northern & City Railway and opened in 1904. Was it an any way part of the Great Northern Railway (GNR) or just a speculative venture.? It was to take GNR electric trains to Moorgate, but GN seems to have abandoned it when they decided not to electrify GNR suburban and it remained a quirky bit of the tube till 1970.

As it didnt have any through trains north of Finsbury Park, maybe through trains to Moorgate were seen as better for passengers by GNR than a change to go via Highbury.
 

Revaulx

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I was wondering the exact same thing the other day! I could only imagine it has something to do with capacity issues at Broad Street/Moorgate.

Plus, the original plan was to run local services down the Northern City Line to Moorgate too
Of course the GN suburban system also had the three Northern Heights branches back then, so capacity may well have been the issue. Need to dig out a 1930s timetable…

I think the Northern City plan was predicated on the electrification of at least the inner suburban lines, but that never happened thanks to the GN’s perennial penury.
 

swt_passenger

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Slightly OT question: given that they had use of the Widened Lines, why did the GN also run commuter trains into Broad Street?

It’s only a couple of minutes’ walk from Moorgate but a massively longer way round by rail.
Well intuitively you’d think that ^^^, but it’s not actually much different at all. Using Google maps (rather than researching exact chainages, Broad St via Canonbury at 7.3 km is only 300m more than Moorgate’s 7 km. Almost equivalent to the walking distance between the 2 stations...
 
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Revaulx

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Built by the Great Northern & City Railway and opened in 1904. Was it an any way part of the Great Northern Railway (GNR) or just a speculative venture.? It was to take GNR electric trains to Moorgate, but GN seems to have abandoned it when they decided not to electrify GNR suburban and it remained a quirky bit of the tube till 1970.

As it didnt have any through trains north of Finsbury Park, maybe through trains to Moorgate were seen as better for passengers by GNR than a change to go via Highbury.
I read somewhere that the failure to raise funds for suburban electrification was one of the drivers for the proposed GN/GE/GC merger than got stymied by Parliament.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

7.3 km

Well intuitively you’d think that ^^^, but it’s not actually much different at all. Using Google maps (rather than researching exact chainages, Broad St via Canonbury at 7.3 km is only 300m more than Moorgate’s 7 km. Almost equivalent to the walking distance between the 2 stations...
Gosh! I suppose it’s quite a big westward arc from Finsbury Park to Moorgate via KX. The Broad Street route is more right-angly.
 
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Magdalia

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Slightly OT question: given that they had use of the Widened Lines, why did the GN also run commuter trains into Broad Street?

I was wondering the exact same thing the other day! I could only imagine it has something to do with capacity issues at Broad Street/Moorgate.

Platform capacity was very limited at Moorgate. The Widened Lines led to/from platforms 5 and 6 only and these were allocated one each to the LMR and ER (I can't remember which was which). In the 1970s, when the LMR had fewer trains, and only used DMUs, a small number of GN DMU formed services were booked to use the LMR platform.

It’s only a couple of minutes’ walk from Moorgate but a massively longer way round by rail.

Well intuitively you’d think that ^^^, but it’s not actually much different at all. Using Google maps (rather than researching exact chainages, Broad St via Canonbury at 7.3 km is only 300m more than Moorgate’s 7 km. Almost equivalent to the walking distance between the 2 stations...
The WTT mileages are Finsbury Park-Moorgate via York Way 4m30c, Moorgate-Finsbury Park via Hotel Curve 4m45c and Moorgate-Broad Street (both ways) 4m44c.

Was Broad Street used for longer distance/outer suburban traffic due to longer platforms or something?
No, both were inner suburban traffic, though I'm aware of one bizarre exception. On summer Saturdays until 1962 the 1305 from Cambridge went to Broad Street, returning from there at 1627. I'm guessing this was due to lack of platform capacity at Kings Cross.
 

swt_passenger

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[…]
The WTT mileages are Finsbury Park-Moorgate via York Way 4m30c, Moorgate-Finsbury Park via Hotel Curve 4m45c and Moorgate-Broad Street (both ways) 4m44c.
Thanks for working that out, it’s quite interesting that the up and down difference between the 2 curves at Kings Cross is of a similar magnitude to the figure I came up with. Didn’t think to measure the Hotel Curve side.
 

etr221

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Slightly OT question: given that they had use of the Widened Lines, why did the GN also run commuter trains into Broad Street?
Platform capacity was very limited at Moorgate. The Widened Lines led to/from platforms 5 and 6 only and these were allocated one each to the LMR and ER (I can't remember which was which). In the 1970s, when the LMR had fewer trains, and only used DMUs, a small number of GN DMU formed services were booked to use the LMR platform.
Originally - until Moorgate was rebuilt in (I think) the 1960s - there were (AIUI) three Widened Line terminal platforms - one each for Midland, GNR and LCDR (the three companies which had agreements with the Met) trains, and one for terminating trains on the original Met (Circle) lines, for Met/GWR services - although to some extent usage was interchangeable. This restriction to a single platform, led the GNR to seek alternatives - also in reaction to limited capacity between Finsbury Park and King's Cross.
But the NLR were not prepared to grant the GNR access to Broad Street; instead the opposite happened - NLR (later LNWR, then LMSR) trains ran over the GNR (LNER) north of Finsbury Park (to Potters Bar, Enfield, High Barnet and Alexandra Palace), until servces withdrawn in 1940. Only with post-war restoration in 1945 did LNER trains get to Broad Street.

My understanding has always been that the GN&C (later Northern City line from Moorgate to Finsbury Park) was intended to be used for through services onto the GNR - but the necessary links and electrification could not be agreed or financed.

Broad Street did have, from 1910-15, the 'City to City' Express to/from Birmingham and Wolverhampton - whose facilities included a typist, for its businessmen clientele. This was in addition to LNWR (and successor) outer suburban trains to beyond Watford - Tring, and possibly beyond - which lasted until 1966.
 

Magdalia

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until Moorgate was rebuilt in (I think) the 1960s
Yes, Moorgate was rebuilt in the 1960s as part of the construction of the Barbican Centre. There is an excellent (but not dated) picture here:


All 4 lines were moved between Moorgate and Aldersgate, which became Barbican.

My understanding has always been that the GN&C (later Northern City line from Moorgate to Finsbury Park) was intended to be used for through services onto the GNR - but the necessary links and electrification could not be agreed or financed.
That was definitely the intention in the early 1960s, but the finance was not provided. The plans were there and, in particular, the Victoria Line was constructed to fit in with them.

This was in addition to LNWR (and successor) outer suburban trains to beyond Watford - Tring, and possibly beyond - which lasted until 1966.
These finished when electric trains to/from Euston started in 1966. In the 1965 timetable there were just 2 trains each way between Tring and Broad Street.
 

etr221

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That was definitely the intention in the early 1960s, but the finance was not provided. The plans were there and, in particular, the Victoria Line was constructed to fit in with them.
I am talking about originally (c.1900 when the GN&CR was in the authorisation phase): it is the reason the GN&C tubes were built to main line loading gauge.
Through running to the Northern Heights was part of the LPTB New Works project for the Northern Line, and a lot of work was done, before cancellation in the early 1950s.
And then it was included in BR's GN suburban electrification plans - originally under the 1955 Modernisation Plan, but not achieved until the 1970s. The intriguing question is what they would have done had the LT Northern Line project been completed.
The Victoria Line works included taking over the GN&C platforms, with the Northern City (as it had become) being truncated at Drayton Park
These finished when electric trains to/from Euston started in 1966. In the 1965 timetable there were just 2 trains each way between Tring and Broad Street.
They actually lasted until the timetable change in March 1966 - the last regular diesel worked passenger services on the south end of the WCML, after all Euston services went electric in January (some had done so in November).
 

Taunton

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Wasn't cattle trains to Smithfield Market one of the justifications for the line? Were there not underground sidings somewhere near the Farringdon triangle?
I had always thought that the GWR ran maybe one freight train a day from Acton yard to Smithfield, until I saw a 1930s GWR Service timetable, which showed a whole series of morning services, after the peak. Possibly all didn't run each day, and I believe the freight trains themselves were limited to a small number of wagons each, maybe a dozen. Certainly the GWR built in the 1930s a batch of 11 condensing pannier tanks, fitted with feedwater pumps (instead of injectors, to work with the condensed hot water) and tripcocks, which lasted to the end of such services, and which replaced a comparable number of Victorian condensing side tank locos similarly employed.
 

Pigeon

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Would a Euston connection have been built if the "City Terminus Railway" have been built?

Possibly: http://c7.alamy.com/comp/FY304C/cha...ings-cross-city-terminusfarringdon-FY304C.jpg

But again the LNWR weren't particularly interested, and weren't worried about the scheme falling through, while the GNR and the GWR continued to help argue for it. The permanence of the station at Paddington was still questionable until 1850, and one of the early variants of the scheme was connected with an eastward extension of the GWR, who were bothered about Paddington being too far out. They, and later the GNR, were "natural" supporters of Charles Pearson's ideas, while the LNWR had already got settled in and sorted themselves out a set of facilities they were happy with before he started to have them.
 

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I have often though that the Farringdon/Barbican/Smithfield/City Thameslink area was a big missed opportunity from a railway perspective. A Thameslink station on the site of the Smithfield market, replacing Farringdon and Holborn Viaduct, could have created a railway hub with really good interchange between Thameslink and Crossrail. It would have made the Thameslink station spacing a bit more sensible and might also have enabled the gradient of the ramp up from the Ray Street Gridiron and the one down from Blackfriars to be eased.
 

Irascible

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This was in addition to LNWR (and successor) outer suburban trains to beyond Watford - Tring, and possibly beyond - which lasted until 1966.

This is wandering rather off topic, but I remember seeing pics of LNWR expresses to quite northerly places starting from Broad Street. Quite a cosmopolitan station for a while.

The intriguing question is what they would have done had the LT Northern Line project been completed.

I wonder if you'd have got shared services like the Watford DC line & the Bakerloo. Given the line to Highgate went over the GN line on a flyover they'd have had to come up to Finsbury Park high level anyway ( or install a rack section somewhere! )
 

etr221

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I am talking about originally (c.1900 when the GN&CR was in the authorisation phase): it is the reason the GN&C tubes were built to main line loading gauge.
Through running to the Northern Heights was part of the LPTB New Works project for the Northern Line, and a lot of work was done, before cancellation in the early 1950s.
And then it was included in BR's GN suburban electrification plans - originally under the 1955 Modernisation Plan, but not achieved until the 1970s. The intriguing question is what they would have done had the LT Northern Line project been completed.
I wonder if you'd have got shared services like the Watford DC line & the Bakerloo. Given the line to Highgate went over the GN line on a flyover they'd have had to come up to Finsbury Park high level anyway ( or install a rack section somewhere! )
The LPTB New Works project included inclines from Drayton Park up to Finsbury Park Main Line/High Level, with new platforms there for the Northern Line, thence a connection onto the LNER/GN line to Highgate. How much of this was actually done (much was), and what happened to it after project cancellation, I don't know.

While turning the Finsbury Park - Highate (HL) - East Finchley/Alexandra Palace section back to BR (as well as the GNC section), with shared operation beyond East Finchley would have been a possibility, I don't think shared operation of the GNC section (Finsbury Park - Moorgate) would have been seen as practicable. To what extent was the GNC modified to suit it for standard tube trains?
 

Gloster

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I had always thought that the GWR ran maybe one freight train a day from Acton yard to Smithfield, until I saw a 1930s GWR Service timetable, which showed a whole series of morning services, after the peak. Possibly all didn't run each day, and I believe the freight trains themselves were limited to a small number of wagons each, maybe a dozen. Certainly the GWR built in the 1930s a batch of 11 condensing pannier tanks, fitted with feedwater pumps (instead of injectors, to work with the condensed hot water) and tripcocks, which lasted to the end of such services, and which replaced a comparable number of Victorian condensing side tank locos similarly employed.

It was twenty-five wagons plus a van, although it may earlier have been twenty. When LT was operating they had to have the vacuum brake functioning on at least one-third of the wagons; the Diagram AA7 vans were fitted with with vacuum brakes at an early date.
 

A0

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Built by the Great Northern & City Railway and opened in 1904. Was it an any way part of the Great Northern Railway (GNR) or just a speculative venture.? It was to take GNR electric trains to Moorgate, but GN seems to have abandoned it when they decided not to electrify GNR suburban and it remained a quirky bit of the tube till 1970.

As it didnt have any through trains north of Finsbury Park, maybe through trains to Moorgate were seen as better for passengers by GNR than a change to go via Highbury.

Not quite right - the Finsbury Park to Moorgate Northern City Line (NCL) was the GNCR - a separate company to the Great Northern railway. The GNCR's aspiration was to take GN services and electrically haul them to the city i.e. Moorgate. The GN opposed this, hence the GNCR ran in to underground platforms at Finsbury Park.

The GNCR was then bought by the Metropolitan railway which meant in turn it got folded into London Underground in the 1930s.

The next plan was as part of the Northern Heights project, whereby a new link would be built from Drayton Park to Finsbury Park - on the east side of FP station - and then take the old GN branch to Highgate and Alexandra Palace. Works started before WW2 but were then halted. The whole Northern Heights project was canned after WW2 - as were some other underground extensions - in part due to the formation of the Green Belt stopping development.

The NCL then was worked as part of the Northern line. Truncated to Drayton Park in the late 1960s as the platforms at Finsbury Park were handed over for use by the new Victoria Line (well, one actually as they reconfigured the underground platforms at FP to be paired by direction so one is used by the Victoria, the other by the Piccadilly). By then electrification of the Great Northern suburban was being planned and there was a desire to remove traffic from Kings Cross, which was congested and from Broad Street which BR already had eyes on closing, so the NCL offered the perfect solution. Part of the link which LT had started to build was reused with the rest being a new link from Finsbury Park connecting to the East Coast Mainline at Finsbury Park.

It closed to LT traffic in 1975 and was re-opened in stages by BR in 1976.
 

AlbertBeale

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Wait there are still remnents of the York Road to Kings Cross Tube curve?

Where the York Road line entered a tunnel heading south, it ran/runs under the road (York Way now), and then curves to the left under the block bounded by York Way, Caledonia Street, Caledonian Road and Pentonville Road, joining the route of the line from the Hotel Curve, and the two Met tracks, just to the west of the old Thameslink station on Pentonville Road.

In the middle of the block delineated above there's an access point where you can look down to the old curving track bed (the "inside" of that block has been a semi-public route to some new bars in old buildings etc since some of that block was redeveloped some years back). I presume that opening in the tunnel was to allow steam and smoke to be vented. I've worked for years in a building on the east side of the block, and my predecessors in the 1950s could see the clouds rising from the middle of the block behind their offices.
 

LUYMun

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What is now the Hammersmith and City station at Paddington is a reduced size, but in days of through running there were four platforms, the running connections are shown on the diagram linked below. GW suburban trains could also run through Royal Oak.

I also see the uncoloured siding to the west of Paddington's H&C platforms must've been a reversing siding, presumably for certain services heading back to the City?
 

swt_passenger

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I also see the uncoloured siding to the west of Paddington's H&C platforms must've been a reversing siding, presumably for certain services heading back to the City?
I would think that’s right, it’s in exactly the right place.
 

etr221

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I also see the uncoloured siding to the west of Paddington's H&C platforms must've been a reversing siding, presumably for certain services heading back to the City?
Before the war, through services from the GWR (I forget where exactly - possibly Slough) to the City changed locos (GW steam to a Met electric) at Paddington: I assume that siding, and the one just north of pfm 16, were used for that - whether there were any Met/LPTB services that reversed at Paddington to use it, I've no idea (but have my doubts, certainly on a frequent basis).

The other thing I was interested to see was that the spur from Latimer Road round to Uxbridge Road Jn and the WLR was still there in 1951.

A pity Harsig's diagram doesn't indicate which lines were electrified.
 

calopez

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The other thing I was interested to see was that the spur from Latimer Road round to Uxbridge Road Jn and the WLR was still there in 1951.
It survived until the early 60s, at least, albeit completely disused. It would be interesting to know when the last train ran over it. The trackless viaduct survived for a few more years until it was demolished to make way for Westway.
 

Mgameing123

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Where the York Road line entered a tunnel heading south, it ran/runs under the road (York Way now), and then curves to the left under the block bounded by York Way, Caledonia Street, Caledonian Road and Pentonville Road, joining the route of the line from the Hotel Curve, and the two Met tracks, just to the west of the old Thameslink station on Pentonville Road.

In the middle of the block delineated above there's an access point where you can look down to the old curving track bed (the "inside" of that block has been a semi-public route to some new bars in old buildings etc since some of that block was redeveloped some years back). I presume that opening in the tunnel was to allow steam and smoke to be vented. I've worked for years in a building on the east side of the block, and my predecessors in the 1950s could see the clouds rising from the middle of the block behind their offices.
I mean the curve that was never used.
 
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