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Widened Lines

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Mgameing123

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Hello I want to know some things about the Widened Lines. Does anybody know if the GWR trains went on the Widened Lines or if they went on the Metropolitan Line between Kings Cross & Moorgate. Do you guys even know what happen to the City Thameslink - Barbican curve and if its still there as a tunnel.
 
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swt_passenger

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Hello I want to know some things about the Widened Lines. Does anybody know if the GWR trains went on the Widened Lines or if they went on the Metropolitan Line between Kings Cross & Moorgate. Do you guys even know what happen to the City Thameslink - Barbican curve and if it’s still there as a tunnel.
AIUI GWR trains would have run as far as Farringdon on the Met lines, but there were crossovers immediately at the west end of Farringdon platforms where trains could switch to the widened lines (now the southern pair) towards Barbican the GW Smithfield depot was south of the running lines.

Theres a previous discussion here about traffic flows here:

I believe from a different previous discussion there are signs of the eastern curve present but they’re within the foundations of more recent buildings, but not suitable for further use. I also think the tight curve radius would have ruled out use by any modern stock

Theres some useful historic track diagrams of the Met and Widened Lines here that show the possible routes, eg in 1933 or 1958:
 
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Mgameing123

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AIUI GWR trains would have run as far as Farringdon on the Met lines, but there were crossovers immediately at the west end of Farringdon platforms where trains could switch to the widened lines (now the southern pair) towards Barbican the GW Smithfield depot was south of the running lines.

Theres a previous discussion here about traffic flows here:

I believe from a different previous discussion there are signs of the eastern curve present but they’re within the foundations of more recent buildings, but not suitable for further use. I also think the tight curve radius would have ruled out use by any modern stock
Unless they use stock with special specifications on carriage lengths.
 

Pigeon

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The east curve is quite definitely dead. Somewhere about there's a photo of it with half the roof ripped off and the trackbed half full of muck, not the remains of the roof but accumulation from its preceding disuse and neglect. Since then the space has become occupied by the unmentionable nether parts of new buildings and it would probably be harder to reinstate it than it was to dig it in the first place.

I've tried peering out the windows to see if I can spot any traces of it, but it's always been too dark for me to have much idea of what I was looking at, and the last time I was down there the Moorgate branch was still open. But I don't think the buildings' bottoms extend far enough west to have obliterated any remaining traces of where it went off if there were any, so I guess it's still faintly possible that there might be something to be seen if you shine a big enough LED floodlight out the window as you go past :)

(You definitely can still see where the connection off the Met into Liverpool Street went off, though.)
 

swt_passenger

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The east curve is quite definitely dead. Somewhere about there's a photo of it with half the roof ripped off and the trackbed half full of muck, not the remains of the roof but accumulation from its preceding disuse and neglect. Since then the space has become occupied by the unmentionable nether parts of new buildings and it would probably be harder to reinstate it than it was to dig it in the first place.
Theres’s an old article on the London Reconnections site suggests the Smithfield Curve route was completely unusable after the old Poultry Market was rebuilt, sometime just after 1958. Unfortunately their site archive has disconnected all the photos, I’m fairly sure there was a picture showing quite explicitly that the curve could never be reused. They also emphasise that on closure, bogie fitted stock could not use the curve. I’ll add the link, but as said there are no photos, just the text:


I agree with ‘definitely dead’, IMHO it’s a waste of time even considering it for any fantasy reuse.

But I think this Railway Magazine article, (found on SREMG and linked from within the London Reconnections article), includes the picture you mentioned, and that’s before any building work for modern foundations being done:

 
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Pigeon

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Cheers, yes, that's the one.

Also managed to find versions of the LR article on archive.org that do have all the images working, such as http://web.archive.org/web/20120628.../london-terminals-fullsome-farringdon-part-1/ (also part 2, at http://web.archive.org/web/20120707...on-terminals-fighting-over-farringdon-part-2/ and the preceding article in the series http://web.archive.org/web/20120628.../2012/in-pictures-a-walk-on-the-widened-lines as well.) And from those pages I found http://www.forever-changes.com/Smithfields Market/document store/document store.htm which has a picture of a few metres of the upper half of the tunnel, still patent as internal access within the basement.
 

Mgameing123

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Alright thanks you guys for this information. Also do you guys know what the Moorgate branch could be used for. Some have said sidings but I doubt that has happened now.
 

Sad Sprinter

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Cheers, yes, that's the one.

Also managed to find versions of the LR article on archive.org that do have all the images working, such as http://web.archive.org/web/20120628.../london-terminals-fullsome-farringdon-part-1/ (also part 2, at http://web.archive.org/web/20120707...on-terminals-fighting-over-farringdon-part-2/ and the preceding article in the series http://web.archive.org/web/20120628.../2012/in-pictures-a-walk-on-the-widened-lines as well.) And from those pages I found http://www.forever-changes.com/Smithfields Market/document store/document store.htm which has a picture of a few metres of the upper half of the tunnel, still patent as internal access within the basement.

I don't know what happened to that site, but a lot of the comments were lost too. There was some great pre-Covid, pre-Brexit articles (remember those days?) when London commuter growth was just going to up and up and up. There was many interesting comments speculating on what new routes would have to be build and where by some very interesting people. Had some great times on that site, all gone now...
 

swt_passenger

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Alright thanks you guys for this information. Also do you guys know what the Moorgate branch could be used for. Some have said sidings but I doubt that has happened now.
Stabling sidings in the tunnels and at Moorgate for LU are under construction, the track connections will be at the Farringdon end. Google’s satellite picture shows the junction points installed.

There’s a thread all about it somewhere in the LU sub forum. I think the layout or position of the crossovers has changed since.

One of our LU experts such as @Dstock7080 can probably give an accurate update…
 
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thedbdiboy

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The Smithfield Curve (from Snow Hill, which was the name of the previous low level platforms close to where City Thameslink is now, towards Barbican) was taken out of use in 1916 as a wartime economy. I believe the track was lifted around 1927. Parts of the tunnel still exist in basements, but a section was lost when the old Smithfield Poultry Market burned down in 1958 as the foundations of its replacements filled in that part.
Another access to the Widened Lines was at Liverpool Street where a pair of lines went off to the main station which was (and still is) below street level at track level to align with the Underground. In practice this spur was only used for a short time until the Metropolitan was extended to Aldgate; and there originally was an access at Kings Cross eastbound, for which part of the trackbed was used when the relocated sub surface Underground station was built around WW2.
 

Pigeon

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I guess you mean "westbound" - the Maiden Lane curve?

That's one of those things that they used so little and closed so soon you wonder why they built it in the first place. It originally crossed over the Hotel curve just before both curves joined the original Met pair of tracks, leaving a sort of little triangular pillar unexcavated in the space between the two junctions and the diamond crossing. The curve closed before the Widened Lines even opened, and the triangular pillar thing then got eaten when the Midland's connection to the St Pancras line was put in. There was still a bit of a recess remaining in the north side of the newly-modified tunnel where the Maiden Lane curve tunnel was truncated; this is now used for signalling cabinets and the blocked-off end of the tunnel is just behind them, although you'd need to be pretty lucky to actually see anything you could recognise as that by peering out of the window. The rest of the tunnel behind the wall is still patent, although apparently the Fleet, which is threading its way over the top of the tunnels in a big pipe at that point, still leaks fumes into it and the lack of ventilation makes it dangerous to go all the way down.

At the same time as the Midland connection was going in and St Pancras was going up, they put in an extra bit of tunnel that extended the path of the Widened Lines from the point where the extra tunnel meets the connection across to the western edge of St Pancras forecourt, so that if the Widened Lines were ever extended westwards they wouldn't need to dig all that lot up all over again. It's that extra bit of tunnel that eventually got used to enlarge the Met/Circle station, by diverting the eastbound track into part of it and converting the original eastbound platform into that rather super concoursey bit between the platforms. There's still a stub of it unused off the western end of the new eastbound platform.
 

swt_passenger

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I guess you mean "westbound" - the Maiden Lane curve?
No, I think he means the eastbound link that existed from the Met to the up widened line before Kings Cross Met station was relocated in 1941. I’ll attach an extract from the “Harsig” 1933 drawings I linked in post #2:
 

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Mgameing123

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No, I think he means the eastbound link that existed from the Met to the up widened line before Kings Cross Met station was relocated in 1941. I’ll attach an extract from the “Harsig” 1933 drawings I linked in post #2:
No i mean the East curve from Snow Hill to Barbican.
 

Pigeon

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No, you were right the first time :)

Cheers for the pic. I guess that's the connection they put in in 1926 or soon after, using the previously-unused spare tunnel that was built at the same time as St Pancras, that later became the new eastbound platform and had its eastern end disconnected from the WL and diverted back to return to the original Met eastbound track.
 

Mgameing123

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I guess you mean "westbound" - the Maiden Lane curve?

That's one of those things that they used so little and closed so soon you wonder why they built it in the first place. It originally crossed over the Hotel curve just before both curves joined the original Met pair of tracks, leaving a sort of little triangular pillar unexcavated in the space between the two junctions and the diamond crossing. The curve closed before the Widened Lines even opened, and the triangular pillar thing then got eaten when the Midland's connection to the St Pancras line was put in. There was still a bit of a recess remaining in the north side of the newly-modified tunnel where the Maiden Lane curve tunnel was truncated; this is now used for signalling cabinets and the blocked-off end of the tunnel is just behind them, although you'd need to be pretty lucky to actually see anything you could recognise as that by peering out of the window. The rest of the tunnel behind the wall is still patent, although apparently the Fleet, which is threading its way over the top of the tunnels in a big pipe at that point, still leaks fumes into it and the lack of ventilation makes it dangerous to go all the way down.

At the same time as the Midland connection was going in and St Pancras was going up, they put in an extra bit of tunnel that extended the path of the Widened Lines from the point where the extra tunnel meets the connection across to the western edge of St Pancras forecourt, so that if the Widened Lines were ever extended westwards they wouldn't need to dig all that lot up all over again. It's that extra bit of tunnel that eventually got used to enlarge the Met/Circle station, by diverting the eastbound track into part of it and converting the original eastbound platform into that rather super concoursey bit between the platforms. There's still a stub of it unused off the western end of the new eastbound platform.
Wait there are still remnents of the York Road to Kings Cross Tube curve?
 

swt_passenger

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Wait there are still remnents of the York Road to Kings Cross Tube curve?
It’s basically complete, and regularly used for access by NR maintenance personnel. The down equivalent, the “Hotel curve” was effectively lost under the LU and NR western ticket hall changes, and the Kings Cross lands development.

There’s a YouTube video about it, but you can easily see the entrance, it is right next to the far end of platform 0.
At about 2m 50s into the video, there’s a NR van parked in the start of the Maiden Lane curve (which it is thought saw very little use if at all), and the up York Rd curve continues round to the left.

 
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Pigeon

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Wait there are still remnents of the York Road to Kings Cross Tube curve?

They're all still there :)

York Road see swt_passenger

Maiden Lane branches off it and gets all the way down before the end's blocked off.

Hotel Curve still exists but is blocked at the bottom and filled with plumbing, which was stuffed in there to keep it out of the way of all the other holes they were going to dig. So much of what's down there is hole already that there wasn't room to put it anywhere else. The tunnel was given a reinforcement to the lining for the sake of the pipes. They chewed it about a bit but there's still most of a hole there.

The remainder of the WL extension tunnel beyond the bit they used for the eastbound platform of the new Met/Circle station is still there. It's not entirely clear how far it goes. Originally it only went as far as the western edge of St Pancras forecourt. Then it had one track put in it which connected the eastbound Met at Chalton St Junction to the WL (the corresponding link for the opposite direction being near the western end of the Met/WL station). This was in 1927. Chalton St is half way to Euston and there are things said about the tunnel being extended that far at the time. A contract was awarded to build the extension by cut and cover, but I'm not sure what happened next or how much of it was actually executed. I haven't been able to find any mapping that shows the extension, or any photographs that let you see far enough down the open end to get an idea of how far it goes or might have gone, or any news items relating to the works actually taking place; nor have I been able to spot anything I could identify as a scar on the wall of the Met tunnel where the other end might once have come through. There are references to a 210m tunnel extension, but the same figure crops up referring to the length of the track in the loop considered as an "extension" to the WL, so it's not clear which is correct. So I'm not sure whether they did dig all the way to Chalton St, or just dug through about where the western end of the Met station now is and nobody cared about the name "Chalton St" not exactly matching the location of the surface feature (after all, there are loads of railway features which are named not after the big obvious landmark right next to them but after some obscure thing two miles away which doesn't even have a name on the map, and only rarely is it because the big obvious thing wasn't built yet when they named it).

The stump of the running tunnel where they turned the original Met eastbound track into a bay platform in the new station is still there. It didn't take them long to decide that the bay platform was basically useless, so they built a wall across the tunnel and filled in the floor to create the concoursey bit between the two platforms either side. But they blocked it off short and left one or two carriages' length of platform still there on the other side of the wall. That's still there, and even still has track in it (or did), though I'm not sure it's the original. There was some thought that after the 1987 fire in the tube station they were going to have to dig out some more emergency exits, and they were going to use that bit to bring the spoil out by rail, so I think they relaid it for that. Would have been super if it had actually happened.
 

trebor79

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(You definitely can still see where the connection off the Met into Liverpool Street went off, though.)
I've seen this reference before, but I've never been able to spot anything. Perhaps I don't know what I'm looking for. I assume it would have been somewhere near the old signal box at the north end of the southbound platform?
 

Pigeon

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I've seen this reference before, but I've never been able to spot anything. Perhaps I don't know what I'm looking for. I assume it would have been somewhere near the old signal box at the north end of the southbound platform?

Just before getting out of the tunnel arriving at the station southbound, the wall of the tunnel begins to curve away, for just far enough to see it's doing it, and then there's a barrier built across the hole, nearly parallel to the running line, made out of what looks like wood that may have been painted some colour other than black once upon a time underneath all the dirt. Not much to see and I had to go past it a couple of times to put the picture together.

However I have seen a cab ride video made after I was last there (which was quite a while ago) and it looks like they've Done Things in the meantime and it might not look like that any more. It's hard to tell anything because the quality isn't great and the camera can't handle the contrast between light and dark, as well as it not looking sideways, but it does look rather as if they might have hidden it.

I remember reading a London Reconnections article which suggested there are abandoned stub tunnels for a westward extension to Euston. Is this true or did I make this up?

See above conundrum re Chalton St Junction. The Midland built a spare extra bit of tunnel when they built St Pancras just in case it was ever needed for anything, to save the chance of having to have the forecourt dug up all over again. The eastern end of that tunnel now has the eastbound platform of the new Met/Circle station in it. For a few years before the new station was built, the tunnel was used for a loop line connecting the eastbound Met to the WL (the track being laid on the southern side of the tunnel, where the platform now is) and at this time the tunnel may have been partly extended, for one track only, no more than half way towards Euston; a contract was awarded to excavate this by cut and cover, but I haven't been able to dig anything up that would confirm to my satisfaction how much if any of it was actually executed. There is at least some extra length remaining unused down there, down the mysterious hole off the western end of the eastbound Met platform, which must go at least as far as the western edge of St Pancras forecourt, but I can't be sure whether there is or ever was any extra little wormhole running off the end of that. If such was ever built it was never used or intended for anything other than the bit of loop line.

Everyone these days says "to Euston" when talking about this, but that was never the idea. The LNWR were never interested in having a connection to the Met, and declined when asked. They had the North London route to Broad St, which gave them a better connection to that end of things than could ever be achieved over the congested and cramped Met route.

When the Victorians were kicking the idea around, it was "to Paddington" that they used to say. The GWR did want a better connection to their City goods terminal than was possible over the Met as it stood. This was still the idea after WW1, which led to installing the abovementioned loop line (and the associated crossover for the opposite direction) - it would allow GWR freights the most advantage possible from the Widened Lines in their existing form, without going to the hassle of building a proper extension.
 

swt_passenger

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[…]
The stump of the running tunnel where they turned the original Met eastbound track into a bay platform in the new station is still there. It didn't take them long to decide that the bay platform was basically useless, so they built a wall across the tunnel and filled in the floor to create the concoursey bit between the two platforms either side. But they blocked it off short and left one or two carriages' length of platform still there on the other side of the wall. That's still there, and even still has track in it (or did), though I'm not sure it's the original.
One of the YouTube videos the LT museum people put online is all about sequence of changes at Kings Cross Met station, and there’s footage taken in that exact area, about 10m 30s in:

 

Pigeon

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Shame it's so dark... :)

Also a shame they didn't show a picture of the central concourse bit before it was full of plastic. You could really see what it was all about then, and it was much more impressive. This image sucks, but it seems to be unreasonably difficult to find a better one:

2c2abf783673b113327ef217967e7b82.jpg
 

Ken H

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I think the northern part of the circle was broad or mixed gague when first opened. Is that actually true and how far east did it get? And when was it made standard gague only? And were tge widened lines mixed?
 

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I think the northern part of the circle was broad or mixed gague when first opened. Is that actually true and how far east did it get? And when was it made standard gague only? And were tge widened lines mixed?

The Metropolitan Railway was originally mixed gauge, Paddington to Farringdon & meant to be worked by the GWR - on the broad gauge - for the Met. The Met fell out with the GWR very fast - a brief check suggests quicker than I thought, opened in Jan 1863 & the GWR withdrew in August! - and they had to either hire in GNR stock or get the GNR to run services while they bought their own stock.

I don't know about the Widened lines, but as they haven't ever connected to Paddington I suspect GWR traffic would just run straight down the Met to Farringdon. There was one working timetabled out of Acton Yard at 10:20 ( am ) & the return at 11:21, that must have been a bit of a spectacle for anyone waiting on the way...
 
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swt_passenger

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The Metropolitan Railway was originally mixed gauge, Paddington to Farringdon & meant to be worked by the GWR - on the broad gauge - for the Met. The Met fell out with the GWR very fast - a brief check suggests quicker than I thought, opened in Jan 1863 & the GWR withdrew in August! - and they had to either hire in GNR stock or get the GNR to run services while they bought their own stock.

I don't know about the Widened lines, but as they haven't ever connected to Paddington I suspect GWR traffic would just run straight down the Met to Farringdon. There was one working timetabled out of Acton Yard at 10:20 ( am ) & the return at 11:21, that must have been a bit of a spectacle for anyone waiting on the way...
There was an outer rail Met to up Moorgate connection from 1926, put in to allow an up direction route from Paddington, we were discussing it a few days ago. The layout pictured in post #13? Would have only been in use about 15 years though.
 

Irascible

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There was an outer rail Met to up Moorgate connection from 1926, put in to allow an up direction route from Paddington, we were discussing it a few days ago. The layout pictured in post #13? Would have only been in use about 15 years though.

A long time post broad-gauge - the lines themselves were opened post GWR fallout, but I wonder if the extra lines were originally planned to be mixed gauge ( with obvious need for extra width ).
 
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Ken H

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There was an outer rail Met to up Moorgate connection from 1926, put in to allow an up direction route from Paddington, we were discussing it a few days ago. The layout pictured in post #13? Would have only been in use about 15 years though.
Wasnt cattle trains to Smithfield Market ine of the justufications for the line? Were there not undergrouhd sidings somewhere near the Farringdon triangle?
Sorry. Always struggled to place underground stuff with whats on the surface. Its not a place I know well.
 

trebor79

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Just before getting out of the tunnel arriving at the station southbound, the wall of the tunnel begins to curve away, for just far enough to see it's doing it, and then there's a barrier built across the hole, nearly parallel to the running line, made out of what looks like wood that may have been painted some colour other than black once upon a time underneath all the dirt. Not much to see and I had to go past it a couple of times to put the picture together.

However I have seen a cab ride video made after I was last there (which was quite a while ago) and it looks like they've Done Things in the meantime and it might not look like that any more. It's hard to tell anything because the quality isn't great and the camera can't handle the contrast between light and dark, as well as it not looking sideways, but it does look rather as if they might have hidden it.
Thanks for that, I'll have a gander. I presume there is nothing at all to see at the other end?
 
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