Why won't the guards open the back carraige/coach?

[Prodigy]

Okay, I'm sure some of you remember my rant about the Huddersfield - Manchester line a while back. Well after beginning to commute myself a lot of my opinions on this service have changed and now I have more a less nothing but praise for it; it's rarely late, guards more a less always check for tickets and the seating on the trains is of a good enough standard for a service that is mainly used for commuting. However, there is still one thing that doesn't necessarily annoy me but confuses me... as I'm sure a lot of you are aware Mossley Station's platform 1 is currently undergoing a an extension to properly allow for 4 carriages on the platform. At the moment only a set of 4 142 pacer coaches manage to fit on the platform and even then some of the front coach is on an unsafe narrow area of the platform. And usually in the morning Northern uses a combination of 2x 142 pacers and 2x 156 sprinters to optimize room on the service which I give them credit for as it is a good idea. However due to the length of the Sprinters only one of the coaches manages to get fully on the platform whilst the other one usually has one door on the platform....

Because of this issue the guards won't open the back Sprinter coach (meaning we can only get on the front one, or the pacers of course), which I find extremely stupid. One of it's doors is fully on the platform so I don't see the problem in just opening it up and letting passengers walk down the carriage? Apparently it's due to a health and safety issue but I say that's trollops because of lot of the guards just open the door between the coaches about 3 minutes after the train has set off to Stalybridge. Besides both Sprinters were FULLY on the platform today and yet still the guard refused to open the back one. To make matters worse the guard didn't open the door into the back sprinter coach until the train had stopped at Stalybridge, and I'm not being funny but why should people who get on the train at a later stop at a station where they have more options into Manchester get priority over people who got on at an earlier stop which only has one option into Manchester?

So yeah I just wanna ask why they won't open the back sprinter even if one of the doors is on the platform? I'm not trying to bash Northern here I'm just curious as to why they don't, even though I was angry that they didn't open the back one when both doors were on the platform. But yeah, just a question, please don't bash me because like I said I am happy with Northern's service on this line at the moment just the door issue has always baffled me. If someone doesn't understand what I mean by one of the doors of the back coach sprinter being on the platform but not being properly opened please just let me know and I will give a diagram explaining.

 

[Harlesden]

Obvious safety issue. You cannot have one set of doors opening onto nothing. I'm not sure why this would "baffle" anyone. The entire coach has to be in the platform before the guard or driver is permitted to open the doors on that coach. There is no facility to open one set of doors on a coach but not the other set.

 

[Eagle]

Is it actually possible to only open one door of a coach on this stock?

 

[Anvil1984]

No Northern units have SDO (except maybe the 180s however it isnt used on that either) meaning that its local door only or the whole set of train doors which are opened. If you lock the very rear or very front doors of the train that passengers normally use out of use for any reason (fault or platform lengths) then the whole carriage needs to be locked out of use. That is an issue on the Man Vic - Huddersfield line where double units are concerned as the OP mentionned the train is too long for the platform. There are also probably Sectional Appendix instructions in play here too.

 

[185]

Guard did right. Guards have been lynched when things go wrong in the past (treated as a door open in traffic) so I don't blame him for one second.

Rather get a customer complaint than a disciplinary. The problem customers should consider are those people sat behind desks called railway managers, who've never actually seen a train - they will complain at anything to try justify their job.

 

[Yew]

Couldnt the guard make an announcement (like they do with the HST in lincoln) and stand at that door to make sure nobody falls out?

 

[northwichcat]

If they used a 4 car combination consisting of corridor linked 150/2 and/or 156s the guard could use local door operation at any platforms that are too short (providing he/she gives an announcement telling alighting passengers where to go.)

The 180s have SDO but it has to be done from the driver end so it's effectively out-of-use for industrial reasons.

 

[Prodigy]

Okay fair enough for clearing this up for me but I could imagine the guard could of locked the slider doors that sprinters have at the end of each coach and in between the two coaches? (correct me if they only have them in between the two coaches.) Because that's how they stop people getting into the back coach anyway (so those things do lock). But yeah thanks for clarifying this with me guys, but I'm still confused as to why the guard refused to open the back coach of the sprinter this morning when both of them were on the platform.

 

[185]

The ordinary procedure was to lock the door out of use, but a risk of passengers being locked in was identified; and in the case of overcrowding, it was also noticed that there may be occasions when the guard physically cannot get through to take the brass locks back off.

 

[thelem]

They'll be a standard rule for each station which keeps things much simplier and avoid the guard having to make a judgement call (erring on the side of safety).

I don't know if the door control would allow the guard to stand at the rear door while unlocking the others, but even if they do the railways are too safety conscious/paranoid (delete as inclined) to have that as an option.

 

[150222]

They'll be a standard rule for each station which keeps things much simplier and avoid the guard having to make a judgement call (erring on the side of safety).

I don't know if the door control would allow the guard to stand at the rear door while unlocking the others, but even if they do the railways are too safety conscious/paranoid (delete as inclined) to have that as an option.

The 150/1 guards on the marston vale do that.

 

[michael769]

I don't know if the door control would allow the guard to stand at the rear door while unlocking the others, but even if they do the railways are too safety conscious/paranoid (delete as inclined) to have that as an option.

Guards normally step out onto the platform to check along the train before closing the local door. Kind of hard to do that if there is no platform to step onto.

 

[- Cal -]

There is a specific method of working for 2 units between Huddersfield and Manchester Victoria that we have to sign to say we have read and understand and that we will work to Northerns method of working on the Huddersfield line. Personally I don't want to go into detail of it but I would rather have a passenger moan because it is busy etc and do my job correctly than to have a manager pull me for not working in a way that I have signed to say I will. Cheers

 

[Prodigy]

There is a specific method of working for 2 units between Huddersfield and Manchester Victoria that we have to sign to say we have read and understand and that we will work to Northerns method of working on the Huddersfield line. Personally I don't want to go into detail of it but I would rather have a passenger moan because it is busy etc and do my job correctly than to have a manager pull me for not working in a way that I have signed to say I will. Cheers

Wow thanks for responding man, nice to here from a conductor of the line themselves. A quick question to you then; working the service you'll probably know they layout they use in the morning with a the pacer at the front and the sprinter at the back. Even if both of Sprinter coaches are fully on the platform are you not allowed to open the back coach of the sprinter until you reach Stalybridge?

 

[- Cal -]

Wow thanks for responding man, nice to here from a conductor of the line themselves. A quick question to you then; working the service you'll probably know they layout they use in the morning with a the pacer at the front and the sprinter at the back. Even if both of Sprinter coaches are fully on the platform are you not allowed to open the back coach of the sprinter until you reach Stalybridge?

If we are travelling alone with no other guard acting as an AFC then the rear unit must remain locked out of use until Stalybridge, at that point we can jump in the rear unit unlock it let passengers on and then work the train from the front cab of the rear unit.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It is similar to the Class 185 unit situation when two of these are joined together and arrive at Salford Crescent then the passengers in the sixth and final coach of the train are advised to move to the "B" coach of the second set to disembark there.

 

[talltim]

There is a specific method of working for 2 units between Huddersfield and Manchester Victoria that we have to sign to say we have read and understand and that we will work to Northerns method of working on the Huddersfield line. Personally I don't want to go into detail of it but I would rather have a passenger moan because it is busy etc and do my job correctly than to have a manager pull me for not working in a way that I have signed to say I will. Cheers

Yeah, cos the railways are for the benefit of the management, not the passengers...

 

[Simon Poole]

I was at Huddersfield on May 27th this year, getting a train to Wakefield Kirkgate! Northern Rail Class 158 arrived with a London Midland Class 153!!!!

doors opened and got onto the Class 153, felt right at home because i live in Rugeley which has the Class 170 with Class 153 combo, next minute the guard came up and asked everyone to make their way into the Class 158! everyone moved and she ended up sealing the Class 153 off! only the driver was onboard the Class 153

 

[cuccir]

Yeah, cos the railways are for the benefit of the management, not the passengers...

Oh come on, I think that's an attitude that most people take towards their work isn't it? It's not up to individual workers, in any industry, to try and right the wrongs of the world and get themselves in trouble.

Anyway, in this case, I think the standard procedure seems correct. It's a dark evening. A passenger not used to the route is on the train, listening to a podcast. There's an announcement that they weren't expecting, and don't hear. The train stops and the doors open. The passenger steps out but there's no platform. I can see why the doors aren't opened!

 

[BestWestern]

The issue of overlength Sprinter stock also occurs on FGW, again the fleet here has no facility for Selective Door Opening. The only options are either to use only one Local Door at the station concerned, or to 'lock out' those doors which will not fit on the platform. However, this is tricky as the Rulebook states that if you lock the leading or trailing (first or last) door normally used by passengers on either side of the train whilst the train is moving, then the whole coach must be taken out of use. This is because passengers would not be able to evacuate through the locked door in the the event of an emergency, and could potentially become trapped at the front/rear of the train (a door which has been properly locked out of use will not open even using emergency release buttons/handles).

So effectively the only 'legal' way to isolate the one offending door is to wait until the train has stopped, lock the door off, move forwards to the next platformed door and carry out the station procedures, then once the doors have been closed again move back to the locked door, reinstate it, then dispatch the train....very time consuming, even if the train isn't busy! The Guard cannot stand at the un-platformed door and prevent passengers from using it as we are required to stand on the platform whilst we carry out station duties; anybody caught standing in a doorway and just peering out will be hung by the Competence Managers!

So it does sounds as though the method being used here, whilst a bit of a faff, is pretty much the standard way of doing things. Maybe one day Northern and FGW will fit SDO controls to their Sprinters the same way SWT have with their 158/159s?!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Yeah, cos the railways are for the benefit of the management, not the passengers...

It's actually a choice of:

Working to the methods devised by management to provide a safe enviroment for passengers to go about their journey(s).

Or...

Working your way to the Job Centre, P45 in hand.

I'm sure you would consider those choices very carefully in the same situation.

 

[175001]

I explained in that same thread why we have to lock the back set out of use, currently Slaithwaite, Marsden and soon not to be Mossley cannot accomodate a 4 car set in the Manchester direction. I will continue to do this until the platforms are long enough.

Mossley will soon be able to accomodate 4 cars (at long last)

And its not stupid, its your life.

And thanks to Cal, he knows the rules of that line just like I do.

Its frustrating for us too, having to work that line on 142's especially on Saturdays when its murder with the intoxicated on that annoying Ale Trail, but we get by!

 

[455driver]

So it does sounds as though the method being used here, whilst a bit of a faff, is pretty much the standard way of doing things. Maybe one day Northern and FGW will fit SDO controls to their Sprinters the same way SWT have with their 158/159s?!

But then the SDO only works by locking out complete units NOT individual coaches.