Why were the Deltics retired and not cascaded?

[xotGD]

How about Class 27 style, with a Deltic at each end? *wibble*

No more ridiculous than an HST power car on either end of a set of four coaches!

 

[AY1975]

I don't recall details, but didn't 55022 work a Liverpool St - Norwich vice 86 in the privatised era?

Yes, I think it was on a Sunday in early August 2002: about 11th August IIRC.

 

[edwin_m]

The deltics did what they were designed for and lasted their designed lifespan. If you convert years to miles operated they way exceeded anything else in their time. As otjers have said there was no other suitable work for them. They were far outfront in reliability but this came at a cost as others have mentioned. For those who think they were unreliable that was not the case, they were extremely reliable but that came at a cost. In later years yes they were temperamental but this was due to a run down in maintenance and cost cutting. Lets not undermine what these fantastic machines, you had to be there to appreciate what they attained. If you weren’t there you can only dream.

No doubt also the staff at the few depots that serviced them got to know them very well. If they'd been used more widely or even just transferred to another route then the reliability would probably have plummeted.

 

[Journeyman]

No doubt also the staff at the few depots that serviced them got to know them very well. If they'd been used more widely or even just transferred to another route then the reliability would probably have plummeted.

This appears to be exactly what happened when ScotRail took on HSTs. Reliability hit the floor, presumably because staff at Haymarket weren't used to them.

 

[edwin_m]

This appears to be exactly what happened when ScotRail took on HSTs. Reliability hit the floor, presumably because staff at Haymarket weren't used to them.

There have been numerous other examples too, including with traction far less obviously tempremental than a Deltic. Just look at the reliability variation with the same unit between different operators in the Golden Spanners statistics.

 

[Clarence Yard]

No doubt also the staff at the few depots that serviced them got to know them very well. If they'd been used more widely or even just transferred to another route then the reliability would probably have plummeted.

Yes and the move of the GD/HA locos to YK came at an unfortunate time, when all classes were suffering from materials shortages, such was the parlous state of things by the late 1970's. Indeed, it was unkindly said of Crewe Works that they were trying to collect the complete set of cl.47's!

The Deltics were also coming off their traditional long distance turns as the HST sets took over. That take over was not just a physical one but also in terms of management time and effort and the move of nearly all Deltic maintenance to a depot that hadn't done full maintenance on them before was something that didn't quite work as well as the CM&EE, ER had envisaged. It put a lot of strain on York depot. The curtailment of the HG programme for the Deltics was a sign that they were not going to be around for very much longer because, by that time, they really needed that kind of overhaul.

Around this time the availability targets for all traction types had to be reduced - Deltics used to be 18/22 but that got gradually reduced to 50%, such was the shortage of key components.

 

[Whistler40145]

IMHO, Deltics were best on a long fast run, rather than on semi fast services

 

[delt1c]

In all my journeys behind Deltics, I only ever experienced 1 complete failure. Strangely it was 55.013 Black Watch ( always my favorite) and it was on the Morpeth curve that it came to a stand for 90 mins. I say strangely as Black Watch was always said to be one of the best and has been recorded giving 4000hp, this was explained as it had a complete rewire late in its life at overhaul

 

[millemille]

The Colchester plant has now closed.....

Not yet, it's not.

Consultation has just started for redundancy of all staff in preparation for closure but they are still manufacturing the last VP185 derivatives for, I believe, some Turkish war ships...

 

[43096]

Indeed, it was unkindly said of Crewe Works that they were trying to collect the complete set of cl.47's!

The number of locos that the operators kept smashing up and had to be sent for collision repairs wouldn't have helped!

 

[Jim Jehosofat]

Yes, I think it was on a Sunday in early August 2002: about 11th August IIRC.

I don't recall details, but didn't 55022 work a Liverpool St - Norwich vice 86 in the privatised era?

Had one on the 1700 Liverpool Street to Norwich one weekday evening in the early 2000s

 

[paul1609]

To a point they were cascaded - to transpennine, and secondary ECML services.
But surely the limiting factor was manufacturer support, which I understand became thin after Paxman took over responsibility from Napier during one of the GEC asset-stripping amalgamations. With the Royal Navy scrapping its minesweepers as fast as it could, the total number of Deltic engines in service dropped rapidly making spares and servicing expensive.
I'm not sure if Paxman even touch them now - anyone know?

The 18 cylinder deltic engine was phased out by 1993 by the Royal Navy as the 50 year old Ton Class minesweepers decommissioned.
The 9 cylinder engine in the Hunt Class minesweepers kept going until around 2012. At the end of their life they were supported by Rolls Royce Generation services in Wilmslow through an eyewateringly expensive total care package. There were a couple of spectacular engine failures that began to raise h&s concerns and the remaining Hunt class were re engined with conventional CAT engines when the Rolls Royce contract expired. At that time all the spares such as pistons that were required for the engine rebuilds had been used and commissioning someone to retro build the components would have made no sense. There were also concerns about the emissions.
I think the team at Wilmslow largely disbanded when the Navy Contract ended. Several of the Paxman engineers have ended up at at Bartech Marine Engineering https://bartechmarine.com/blog/category/useful-resources-and-articles/ who I know have also overhauled engines for heritage railways. If I was looking for Deltic support Id probably ask there but it maybe that time has moved on.

 

[Grumpy]

Oh, and Class 20s were built for 75mph. Type 1s were 60mph, Type 2s 75mph. What they didn't have was a steam heat boiler and a second cab.

Should have bought more class 22 instead then.
Came with two cabs and a train heating boiler. Less weight and better route availability.

 

[Helvellyn]

Bespoke fleet, bespoke role and limited numbers at a time BR was cutting back on traction types. Hydraulics had gone on the Western Region and the axe was already hovering over the earlier Type 4s (Classes 40/44/45/46). With the 500+ fleet of Class 47s and the 15 year 50-strong 100mph Class 50s on the WR where did BR have real need for a 22-strong 100mph Type 5 fleet?

 

[delt1c]

The Deltics were retired with dignity, having done the job which they were designed for superbly, to relegate these race horses to secondary duties would have been a sin. The did what was expected of them superbly

 

[Richard Scott]

Bespoke fleet, bespoke role and limited numbers at a time BR was cutting back on traction types. Hydraulics had gone on the Western Region and the axe was already hovering over the earlier Type 4s (Classes 40/44/45/46). With the 500+ fleet of Class 47s and the 15 year 50-strong 100mph Class 50s on the WR where did BR have real need for a 22-strong 100mph Type 5 fleet?

In reality probably not a lot a 50 couldn't do compared to a Deltic? In the real world bet there wasn't much of a difference in performance as guessing a 50 would get power down better and probably at a lower speed?

 

[AJM580]

Had one on the 1700 Liverpool Street to Norwich one weekday evening in the early 2000s

D9000 worked several turns for Anglia from August 1998 to Jan 2000, then a one-off trip in August 2002, The Jan 1999 trip stands out as D9000 matched the electric times for the northbound run, with 103 mph through Witham

 

[matchmaker]

Yes, the mind boggles. Waterloo - Exeter? Sadly, not LST-IPS-NRW hourly expresses - 3300hp to flatten Brentwood Bank would have been a start, though clearly 86s, 90s and now 745s bring rather more than that to the party.

Waterloo - Exeter had 50s, did it not?

In reality probably not a lot a 50 couldn't do compared to a Deltic? In the real world bet there wasn't much of a difference in performance as guessing a 50 would get power down better and probably at a lower speed?

50s also had multiple working capability, which Deltics didn't. 50s also had a far more conventional and unstressed power plant.

 

[Polarbear]

My recollection at the time was that BR did initially consider cascading the Deltics. Cross Country & Liverpool - Newcastle were two routes that conjured up some speculation at the time.

Off the top of my head, I think that maintenance for an ageing fleet of a relatively small number of locos counted against that idea. That, coupled with the economic climate at the time (which was far from rosy) meant that it was more cost effective to withdraw the class & re-deploy 47's (and from 1982, freed up 45/1's from MML duties when HST's started work over there).

 

[Clarence Yard]

In reality probably not a lot a 50 couldn't do compared to a Deltic? In the real world bet there wasn't much of a difference in performance as guessing a 50 would get power down better and probably at a lower speed?

As one who has ridden both classes, there most certainly was. If you want fearsome acceleration and power at will, a Deltic would win hands down. A 50 gives you that power & acceleration that a 47 won’t give you. If you want a suitable nag for the Waterloo-Exeter, I’d take a 50 over a 47 any day. If you wanted something in 1979 to power the semi fast KX-York and Cleethorpes trains, I’d go for a 47/4 over a Deltic. Subbing for an ER HST in 1979 - only a Deltic would really handle that and they did.

There was a lot of talk within BR in the late 1970’s about redeployment, chiefly from enthusiastic managers, but when the realities of dealing with a highly specialist bit of kit hit home, that talk soon stopped. As the money got progressively tighter for traction, their (and their depots) days were numbered.

 

[DB]

No more ridiculous than an HST power car on either end of a set of four coaches!

It is - two Deltics would equal four diesel engines!

 

[CW2]

D9000 worked several turns for Anglia from August 1998 to Jan 2000, then a one-off trip in August 2002, The Jan 1999 trip stands out as D9000 matched the electric times for the northbound run, with 103 mph through Witham

I had 55022 on the 11:30 Liv St - Norwich on Tuesday 12/01/99. My notes reveal that 86416 (off the Willesden postals) had been hired in from EWS to replace a failed Anglia 86/2, but was not working in TDM mode, so 55022 was hired in to work top-and-tail with it. Thus it was load 10 + dead electric. The same set (in reverse formation, i.e. 86416 load 10 + 55022 dead on rear) returned on the 14:05 Norwich - Liv Street - the only time I've had an 86/4 for haulage out of Norwich. The Deltic worked back again from Liv Street (at 16:30 maybe?), but I couldn't do it again. Upon reaching Norwich the 86/4 was required for the evening TPO, so it was game over.
Deltics were superb locos,but needed a lot of care and attention to keep them running. Once their main workload on the ECML had passed on the HSTs, their days were numbered. I'm surprised they lasted as long as they did.

Regarding comparison with class 50 acceleration, practically any driver could get a class 50 to accelerate hard from a standstill, as they were very difficult to overload. Conversely Deltics would overload very easily on first acceleration, so many drivers were wary of opening them up fully at low speeds. A Gateshead second man I knew once said to me at York station "Just watch this guy. He's brilliant with these locos". So we watched as this Gateshead driver got a Deltic hauled express under way northbound from York station. Within a single coach length the loco was on full power, and didn't overload. I've never seen that done before or since. Certainly once moving the extra horsepower of the Deltic would soon overhaul a 50.

 

[xotGD]

It is - two Deltics would equal four diesel engines!

That's where the advantages lies. Run the two Deltics on one engine each and you don't have an excess of power. Unlike the HST short sets.

 

[DB]

That's where the advantages lies. Run the two Deltics on one engine each and you don't have an excess of power. Unlike the HST short sets.

In which case it would make more sense to just use a lower-powered loco!

 

[hexagon789]

They were actually fairly reliable - they were the most reliable of all the ER passenger type 4 & 5 locos for a number of years.

They were really suited to fast, limited stop services that took a few hours of constant thrash. The diagrams that involved 3 trips to or from Edinburgh in 24 hours were the best for them. The semi fast work they got at the end of their life did not and by this time they were well worn, having done about 3 million miles each.

They required constant specialist attention and that didn’t come cheap or easily. Depot, works or support staff (like me!) had to really know them, the move of locos from HA and GD to YK didn’t go as well as ER HQ had anticipated and by this time the 1970’s material shortages were adversely affecting the smaller BR classes availability.

There really wasn’t any further use for them as all the other lines either had their 100/125 mph traction or didn’t require what a Deltic would provide over a ETH cl.47.

Although they performed admirably on York semi-fasts on load 8 and the second rank ECML expresses that didn't go to IC125 operation in the late-1970s.

Their traction motors were deliberately beefed up for the last years because it was known they would be effectively thrashed on the services they were working, consequently they were far more reliable at higher speeds as the windings were much less likely to come apart hence many of the higher recorded speeds for Deltics coming towards the end of their lives.

They even in their twilight years had a start-stop booking timed to average in excess of 90mph - non-stop King's Cross to Retford with the Hull Executive at an average of 91.3mph!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2020 ==

In all my journeys behind Deltics, I only ever experienced 1 complete failure. Strangely it was 55.013 Black Watch ( always my favorite) and it was on the Morpeth curve that it came to a stand for 90 mins. I say strangely as Black Watch was always said to be one of the best and has been recorded giving 4000hp, this was explained as it had a complete rewire late in its life at overhaul

A couple of Napper engines were recorded as kicking out about 2000 or so horses instead of the nominal 1,650hp, and that happened during and after their BR service probably because the engines were rated at well over 1,650hp and were simply derated for the Deltics, not always correctly though!

 

[DB]

Their traction motors were deliberately beefed up for the last years because it was known they would be effectively thrashed on the services they were working, consequently they were far more reliable at higher speeds as the windings were much less likely to come apart hence many of the higher recorded speeds for Deltics coming towards the end of their lives.

What did they do to the motors?

I believe that they are the same motors as on the 37s and 50s, and similar to those on the 40s.

 

[hexagon789]

What did they do to the motors?

I believe that they are the same motors as on the 37s and 50s, and similar to those on the 40s.

Some tweaks to the field diverts and motor brushes to reduce flashovers and vacuum impregnation of a resin-like substance on the armatures.

 

[Kingspanner]

In reality probably not a lot a 50 couldn't do compared to a Deltic? In the real world bet there wasn't much of a difference in performance as guessing a 50 would get power down better and probably at a lower speed?

I'm afraid you couldn't be more wrong.

Apart from this https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/37623-fastest-deltics/ and especially this http://delticsounds.com/deltichowfast.html , Deltics had two advantages. Firstly of course power at the rail, typically almost double that of a class 40, and a third more than any Peak. They had a large advantage over any class 47, especially at higher speeds where a class 47 would be unloading beyond 87mph but a Deltic could handle full power to beyond 100mph. Add in 300hp reductions for ETH and the proportional advantage over a 47 or a 50 is greater still.
They were of course notoriously light on their feet when starting, but here's the other thing. Locomotives have to move themselves as well as the train, they have to haul themselves over hills as well as the carriages. A Deltic is a full carriage lighter than a 40 or a Peak and more than half a carriage lighter than a 47 or 50. The competition is handicapped from the start.
I urge doubters to look at accounts of West Country railtours hauled by Deltics, where local bashers will admit they had never seen performance like it on that territory.
Also, if our world returns to normal and any of the surviving Deltics return to mainline railtour duty, give one a try.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2020 ==

50s also had multiple working capability, which Deltics didn't.
Wasn't the multiple working capability mostly used to double-head heavy expresses over Beattock and Shap prior to electrification? By comparison there was no conceivable express passenger situation on the ECML that a single |Deltic could not manage.


50s also had a far more conventional and unstressed power plant.
And weighed 119 tons as a consequence

 

[hexagon789]

I'm afraid you couldn't be more wrong.

Apart from this https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/37623-fastest-deltics/ and especially this http://delticsounds.com/deltichowfast.html , Deltics had two advantages. Firstly of course power at the rail, typically almost double that of a class 40, and a third more than any Peak. They had a large advantage over any class 47, especially at higher speeds where a class 47 would be unloading beyond 87mph but a Deltic could handle full power to beyond 100mph. Add in 300hp reductions for ETH and the proportional advantage over a 47 or a 50 is greater still.
They were of course notoriously light on their feet when starting, but here's the other thing. Locomotives have to move themselves as well as the train, they have to haul themselves over hills as well as the carriages. A Deltic is a full carriage lighter than a 40 or a Peak and more than half a carriage lighter than a 47 or 50. The competition is handicapped from the start.
I urge doubters to look at accounts of West Country railtours hauled by Deltics, where local bashers will admit they had never seen performance like it on that territory.
Also, if our world returns to normal and any of the surviving Deltics return to mainline railtour duty, give one a try.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2020 ==

50s also had multiple working capability, which Deltics didn't.
Wasn't the multiple working capability mostly used to double-head heavy expresses over Beattock and Shap prior to electrification? By comparison there was no conceivable express passenger situation on the ECML that a single |Deltic could not manage.


50s also had a far more conventional and unstressed power plant.
And weighed 119 tons as a consequence

Deltics also have an extra field divert to improve high-speed performance.

 

[Stathern Jc]

Black Watch was always said to be one of the best and has been recorded giving 4000hp, this was explained as it had a complete rewire late in its life at overhaul

Interesting to hear that said of one of the fleet Deltics.

The excellent book "The Deltic Locomotives of British Rail" by Brian Webb (in the David & Charles Locomotive Studies series) has a final chapter on "Deltic Possibilites". Like most books in that series if you see a copy it's well worth a read.
This includes General Arrangement drawings of 6 suggested locomotives with Deltic engines, all credited to GEC Traction Ltd. These include a Class 50 style loco of 4400 or 4600 hp with a pair of Deltic 18s, and a Bo-Bo type derivation of the Class 55 of 2500hp with a single Deltic 18 at 2500hp.
Although digressing slightly from the theme of this thread this does show what had been considered possible for the Deltic engines.