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Why were so many Class 317s ordered for the BedPan electrification?

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Transilien

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On Wikipedia it says that '48 Class 317/1s' were ordered for the BedPan scheme. This seems like a very high amount for what was basically one line with a branch to Moorgate. Does anyone know why this was the case?
 
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Helvellyn

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Not sure why so many were ordered, especially as only 30 4-car sets of Class 127 DMUs had been built for the BedPan services in the 1960s (and withdrawals of various individual vehicles had reduced that). One thought is that a bit like the earlier Great Northern electrification BR had planned to offer a higher frequency of service, banking on a Sparks effect to boost ridership.
 

Magdalia

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Fleet size was based on lower availability assumptions than were used later. My hunch is that the peak Monday-Friday traffic requirement was probably about 40 units, or 20 pairs, with availability at 80-85%. The peak service into Moorgate 0800-0900 and out of Moorgate 1700-1800 was 10 tph so a traffic requirement in the peaks for 40 units seems plausible to me.
 

62484GlenLyon

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There was also an increase of service with the 317s. Off-peak pre electrification there was 1 tph Bedford to St.Pancras calling all stations to Elstree, then St.Pancras and 1 tph Luton to St.Pancras calling at all stations. With the July 1983 service off-peak was 2 tph Bedford to St.Pancras calling all stations to St.Albans, then non-stop and 2 tph Luton to Moorgate, alternately all stations throughout and all station to Mill Hill Broadway then Kings Cross Midland, Farringdon, Barbican, Moorgate.

Furthermore, the 127 fleet for many years was augmented by peak-hour loco hauled services calling mostly at some, or all of, St.Albans, Harpenden, Luton and Bedford. Various MML services called at some or all of St.Albans, Luton and Bedford which also supplemented the local service. As far back as the mid 1960s I sometimes used a train formed by loco-hauled non corridor stock to get from Harpenden to St.Albans for school. There was plenty of space for a goodly number of the 48 317s to fill.
 

Bevan Price

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Some 317s were used at the Southern end of WCML before the arrival of the 321s. A trio even reached Liverpool on a "relief" service for a football match.
 

D7666

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Not sure why so many were ordered, especially as only 30 4-car sets of Class 127 DMUs had been built for the BedPan services in the 1960s (and withdrawals of various individual vehicles had reduced that). One thought is that a bit like the earlier Great Northern electrification BR had planned to offer a higher frequency of service, banking on a Sparks effect to boost ridership.

There were other DMUs other than 127s on the route you need to count those too.
There was also an increase of service with the 317s. Off-peak pre electrification there was 1 tph Bedford to St.Pancras calling all stations to Elstree, then St.Pancras and 1 tph Luton to St.Pancras calling at all stations. With the July 1983 service off-peak was 2 tph Bedford to St.Pancras calling all stations to St.Albans, then non-stop and 2 tph Luton to Moorgate, alternately all stations throughout and all station to Mill Hill Broadway then Kings Cross Midland, Farringdon, Barbican, Moorgate.

Furthermore, the 127 fleet for many years was augmented by peak-hour loco hauled services calling mostly at some, or all of, St.Albans, Harpenden, Luton and Bedford. Various MML services called at some or all of St.Albans, Luton and Bedford which also supplemented the local service. As far back as the mid 1960s I sometimes used a train formed by loco-hauled non corridor stock to get from Harpenden to St.Albans for school. There was plenty of space for a goodly number of the 48 317s to fill.

You beat me to it, twice over, both in respect of doubling the core service from 1 to 2 TPH, and that 317s displaced by 317s some loco hauleds and other dmu types.

As stated, the "branch to Moorgate" - as it was worded upthread - had 2 TPH all day, and was the key maximum peak demand service on the route.

I don't think there is any mystery to it at all, it was about the right fleet size for a self contained ecosystem for a typical BR project.

Indeed, I would suggest it might even have been pared back a bit - the MSE scheme was 48 units for ~55 route miles while the GNSE scheme was a vast fleet of 64 313s and 26 312s = 90 units for ~73 route miles.
 
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Sun Chariot

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Some 317s were used at the Southern end of WCML before the arrival of the 321s.
Although that was following arrival of the 319/0 fleet? 1984-1987, when I travelled Bletchley-Bedford, the 310s dominated on the southern end of the West Coast Main Line and 317s with Bedford to St Pancras.

1988, as the 319/0s entered MML service, that was the first time I saw 317s on the WCML - I have a couple of photos of 317s at Coventry in that summer. I rode a few 317s between Bletchley and Euston (and I thought them a poor successor to the 310s)
 

D7666

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Although that was following arrival of the 319/0 fleet? 1984-1987, when I travelled Bletchley-Bedford, the 310s dominated on the southern end of the West Coast Main Line and 317s with Bedford to St Pancras.

1988, as the 319/0s entered MML service, that was the first time I saw 317s on the WCML - I have a couple of photos of 317s at Coventry in that summer. I rode a few 317s between Bletchley and Euston (and I thought them a poor successor to the 310s)

Indeed, refering to 317s on WCML is irrelevant to the OP question, which is about the original BedPan / MSE order for the 1983 service, not about how 317s were later redeployed away from BedPan after 319s arrived, which was 5 years later from 1988.
 

Magdalia

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Not sure why so many were ordered, especially as only 30 4-car sets of Class 127 DMUs had been built for the BedPan services in the 1960s (and withdrawals of various individual vehicles had reduced that). One thought is that a bit like the earlier Great Northern electrification BR had planned to offer a higher frequency of service, banking on a Sparks effect to boost ridership.
The DMU service introduced in the early 1960s was itself a significant advance on the steam era, especially north of Luton.

Indeed, the 127s didn't work to Moorgate.
A single 4 car set was too short but a double 8 car set was too long.

In the diesel era the Moorgate service was only 3 trains, and, when the DMUs were first introduced, these continued to be loco hauled.

The LMR trains to/from Moorgate only went DMU when they could receive cascaded units following various Beeching era closures. The rebuilding of Moorgate as part of the construction of the Barbican Centre was probably a factor too.

In the 1970s Cricklewood had a small fleet of standard Derby suburban DMUs (class 116). If I'm counting correctly this comprised 23 motor cars and 7 trailers. These formed a mix of 3 and 2 car sets, to provide 5 car trains to/from Moorgate. Before electrification, 5*64' or 6*57' was the maximum for the widened lines platforms.

The 3 car sets also worked the Kentish Town-Barking service.
 

D7666

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Moorgate platforms may well have been able to take 5x64 or 6x57 ft cars.

But it is not that simple, and that is not the whole story when 127s were new.

The LM route into Moorgate is very complexicated w.r.t. route restrictions. None of these were set in stone and one must be careful to state any restriction w.r.t. to a time frame. There are height and width and car length restrictions - but not all of them all at the same time or in the same location - some still apply today - but what applies today did not necessarily apply when 127s were new nor when 317s were new - an vice versa. The most difficult section is - and always was - between Kentish Town and what was KX Thameslink. Some of the legacy restrictions have been gradually removed over time, but other works introduced new restrictions also over time.

Going back to the OP question, the Midland route was restricted to 57 ft cars at the time the 127s were introduced new.

It was /something/ like the MR route into Moorgate was limited to 57 ft stock but the GN route via YorkWay / KXSub could take 64 ft stock. That affected DMU types that could be used, as well as short or long frame LH suburban cars. That is why back then on the LM side 127s not to Moorgate but 112/113 could.

Over time there were changes. I /think/ the 57ft restriction was removed around about the time Barbican tracks were slewed and Moorgate rebuilt and enclosed. Since both GN and MR routes had 57 ft LH stock already in place, it did not much affect that LM could now use 64 ft LH stock - but did then allow the 116s in 1970s as mentioned above..

So "A single 4 car set was too short but a double 8 car set was too long" when refering to 127s was not an original issue - 127s were not allowed there outright at that time.

It all comes back to comparing the count of 127s delivered under Bedford dieselisation covered less route and less services than the count of 317s delivered under MSE => not directly comparable.


Digressing, there were other clearance issues. Different stock at different times, and in no particular order :

319s were set lower on suspensions than others of the same type e.g. 321; your ABC Spotting Book Of Numbers will tel you the body dimension are the same, but 319s were set up on the absolute minimum possible - this is for OLE height clearance through the ex-KX TL / today STP area.

The design change from the 317 type body to the 319/321 that introduced the drivers cab plug door was driven by tunnel clearances between Kentish Town and KX TL; the elimination of the 317 end vestibule layout with the driving cabs having no side doors to that of a driving cab with side doors was the high level change - but it was the tunnel clearance detail that led to the exact plug door design used.

313s - despite that a 313 is overall a lower height body (precisely for tunnel work) they were neve allowed on the MR route into Moorgate when they were temporarily used on the Midland, they were limited to the StPancras service.

Today the OLE through STP TL is still an issue, it is the lowest on the route anywhere, and, I have heard it said, is the lowest live 25 kV anywhere on NR running lines.

317s and 319s had end of unit exits - 317s with the full gangway, 319s with the emergency door. 700s do not have these ends doors (they could have had, per 717s, it was not a design blocking point as has been alleged elsewhere). The end emergecny exits was driven by single bore tunnels exceeding a certain length - but those tunnels that drove the 317/319 need were east of Farringdon on the Moorgate line, which closed, so 700s had no requirement for them. The relevant 'single bores' came into place also as part of the Barbican centre works with buildings under pinning. Yes it is obviously true non gangwayed stock and no end of unit egress stock worked the route - but legislaton changes (and accident report recomendations) demanded 317/319 so built; the older legacy stock types were tolerated and/or had exemptions.

Short platforms. 317s and 319s into Moorgate did something Up direction at Barbican that was pure legacy that would never never be allowed these days - Barbican Up was 7car platform but the was no SDO, the rear car was not on the platform, but the doors were released and you could open them. What there was there was a ledge, no way could you call it platform in a passegner sense, that you would more or less have had to have shuffled along sideways to use. I did open the doors on a 319 once to take a look, there is no way I'd have tried to exit there, unless the thing was on fire etc. Barbican Down was only 4car, that was worked around by 8car not stopping there.

And so on.

My main point however is, beware that when stating issues on the Moorgate lines, ensure you state a time frame, and not just "it was X" or "Y was not allowed".
 
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Helvellyn

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If the handover of the Northern City line to BR hadn't happened I wonder if the Midland City scheme would have happened sooner, linked to the Great Northern scheme, to electrify to Moorgate via the Widened Lines and including the Hotel/York curves at King's Cross. Of course the frequencies that could have been offered on both routes to Moorgate would have been lower, limited by a two-track railway from King's Cross to Farringdon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Also interesting that the 48 317/1s were to be initially replaced by just 46 319s, quickly increased to 60 with a top-up order of 14. But that was still only a 20% invrease in fleet size to also take over services South of the river (I know some unit savings came from not having units at London Terminii awaiting turnaround).

Even the 319/1 order was originally just 20 units, increased to 26 after the Clapham and Purley accidents to indirectly allow a cascade of third rail units.
 

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At the end of the diesel era the GN route to/from the widened lines was only 57' stock: Cravens DMUs and non-corridor Mark1s, that's why the latter survived so long.

Prior to that The ER used the Quadarts where each car was only about 40' long so a double quadart was roughly the same length as a 5*64' or 6*57' DMU.

In the days of through traffic to Blackfriars and beyond I think LNER Gresley 61' stock was permitted.

After the Barbican related alterations there were separate ER and LMR platforms at Moorgate. The ER loco hauled trains had to use the ER platform, but the ER DMUs could use the LMR platform, for example in 1970 the 0708 from Gordon Hill, the 1615 to Hatfield and the 1810 to Hertford North were DMUs booked to use the LMR platform.

Also interesting that the 48 317/1s were to be initially replaced by just 46 319s
That demonstrates higher expectations of fleet availability. The GN outer service started with 26*class 312s, which was reduced to 25, then replaced by 24*class 317.
 

Taunton

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Over time there were changes. I /think/ the 57ft restriction was removed around about the time Barbican tracks were slewed and Moorgate rebuilt and enclosed. Since both GN and MR routes had 57 ft LH stock already in place, it did not much affect that LM could now use 64 ft LH stock - but did then allow the 116s in 1970s as mentioned above..
That's a comprehensive summary. The whole section between Moorgate and Barbican, both BR and parallel Circle Line, was rebuilt and realigned in the mid-1960s, having run through a cleared bombsite since WW2 where it curved around the onetime street pattern. The dead-straight alignment, which can be readily seen now in a view of the Barbican development, was rebuilt, along with elements of the two stations (and renaming Aldersgate station to Barbican).

The peak hour loco-hauled trains used reduced 57' length BR non-corridor vehicles, I think the only such ones built, but in addition their roof ventilators had to be repositioned from standard to fit. It's a wonder that 25kV overhead ever managed to get installed!
 

edwin_m

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Apart from the Farringdon-Moorgate section, the route bas built for freight, and that continued to be its main purpose until the 1960s.

Someone mentioned upthread that the tight section was created at the time of the re-alignment and building the Barbican, which if correct is surprising as it would be expected that something built relatively recently would have had enough clearance for evacuation via side doors..
 

gaillark

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On Wikipedia it says that '48 Class 317/1s' were ordered for the BedPan scheme. This seems like a very high amount for what was basically one line with a branch to Moorgate. Does anyone know why this was the case?
I dont know the reason why BR ordered 48 units.
What I can tell you living and growing up on the route the introduction of 317 operation was delayed due to DOO strikes but when the new timetable was published it offered a massive uplift on services on the whole route even introducing a very fast from Bedford that called Leagrave and Luton only before St. Pancras.
Almost all services were diverted to Moorgate. Kings Cross Midland City as it was called then provided a very easy short walk to the Victoria line and quicker route to Piccadilly and Northern lines than going through St. Pancras. The Met and Circle interchange was at Farringdon.

Ridership very quickly increased with the huge reduction in journey times, increased frequency, reliability and comfort so I guess BR got in right as the sparks effect definately proved its worth.
My local station Leagrave saw a massive increase in patronage and car parking spaces were increased with further capacity increases later.
BR also introduced an hourly all night service (not in first year of operation). There was also talk of extending services to Dunstable on the old freight branch - now converted to a busway.
(Compared to other towns in the Chilterns like Aylesbury or Leighton Buzzard the Midland Electrics were in a league of its own for speed, frequency, quality and comfort).

The 317's were built as first and second class but the first class section in the middle of the train became declassified before introduction.
 
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KevinBrum12

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Although that was following arrival of the 319/0 fleet? 1984-1987, when I travelled Bletchley-Bedford, the 310s dominated on the southern end of the West Coast Main Line and 317s with Bedford to St Pancras.

1988, as the 319/0s entered MML service, that was the first time I saw 317s on the WCML - I have a couple of photos of 317s at Coventry in that summer. I rode a few 317s between Bletchley and Euston (and I thought them a poor successor to the 310s),
The spell of the 317's on the Euston Semi-Fasts was very short before the 321's arrived. As well as moving 310's elsewhere on Network South East it also allowed a reshuffle to enable 310's to be used on the "Midline" services in the West Midlands with a few units getting a Provincial sponsored refurb into Provincial colours.

The moves around NSE show how versatile the 317's were.
 

35B

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Apart from the Farringdon-Moorgate section, the route bas built for freight, and that continued to be its main purpose until the 1960s.
That may explain restrictions on vehicle length given the curvature, but I'm struggling to see how it explains the height restrictions.
 

D7666

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That may explain restrictions on vehicle length given the curvature, but I'm struggling to see how it explains the height restrictions.
I think this particular matter has been discussed before somewhere - without conclusion.

The only suggestion I could come up with - and this is speculation not fact - is from the Widened Lines built cut and cover - not bored - tunnels. The height restriction seems to be along and either side of the centre line of vehicle roofs i.e. where todays OLE wire is and where yesterdays carriage roof ventilators were. Tunnels bored with TBMs are circular, tunnels dug manually seem to me to not have flat ceilings but arched. Those with a circular or arched cross section are naturally higher above the centre line, room to squeeze in OLE for example. A cut and cover tunnel may have just been roofed over to clear vehicle height, but leaving it without that little bit extra clearance than an arched or circular tunnel would have. But this is all guess.
 
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35B

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I think this particular matter has been discussed before somewhere - without conclusion.

The only suggestion I could come up with - and this is speculation not fact - is from the Widened Lines built cut and cover - not bored - tunnels. The height restriction seems to be along and either side of the centre line of vehicle roofs i.e. where todays OLE wire is and where yesterdays carriage roodf ventilators were. Tunnels bored with TBMs are circular, tunnels dug manually seem to me to not have flat ceilings but arched. Those with a circular or arched cross section are naturally higher above the centre line, room to squeeze in OLE for example. A cut and cover tunnel may have just been roofed over to clear vehicle height, but leaving it without that little but extra clearance than an arched or circular tunnel would have. But this is all guess.
That seems logical in a pre-electric world.
 

D7666

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Apart from the Farringdon-Moorgate section, the route bas built for freight, and that continued to be its main purpose until the 1960s.

Can you cite an authoritative source for the "the route was built for freight" ?

In its later years it sure was a freight route with substantial traffic, and it is true passenger services were withdrawn a very long time ago.

It always did carry freight, but nonetheless it opened on Day 1 in 1866 to regular passenger trains, increased in 1886, because of rising City commuting. 1920s gradual erosion of the passenger services for various reasons, with the final passenger trains in 1929.

None of that suggests it was "built for freight". It was built as a railway to carry both.
 

Ken H

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Can you cite an authoritative source for the "the route was built for freight" ?

In its later years it sure was a freight route with substantial traffic, and it is true passenger services were withdrawn a very long time ago.

It always did carry freight, but nonetheless it opened on Day 1 in 1866 to regular passenger trains, increased in 1886, because of rising City commuting. 1920s gradual erosion of the passenger services for various reasons, with the final passenger trains in 1929.

None of that suggests it was "built for freight". It was built as a railway to carry both.
What was in the way? Was there bits of st pan station above.
 

Clarence Yard

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Back to the units. At the beginning of 1977 Cricklewood had 27 cl.127 sets left and 12 cl.116 sets. Now if we take 4 units off that allocation total of 39 for the GOB, that leaves 35 units for MML.

Given the increase in service level planned for the Bed-Pan scheme, an order for 48 units seems a logical number. It was never going to be one in one out - the new service required about a dozen more on the allocation. These numbers also would have been heavily scrutinised by the BRB before authority was given for the build - they didn’t give you freebies!
 

bramling

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Back to the units. At the beginning of 1977 Cricklewood had 27 cl.127 sets left and 12 cl.116 sets. Now if we take 4 units off that allocation total of 39 for the GOB, that leaves 35 units for MML.

Given the increase in service level planned for the Bed-Pan scheme, an order for 48 units seems a logical number. It was never going to be one in one out - the new service required about a dozen more on the allocation. These numbers also would have been heavily scrutinised by the BRB before authority was given for the build - they didn’t give you freebies!

The order that’s always been of curiosity to me was the 64-strong fleet of GN class 313s, and in particular how the fleet was able to be so heavily reduced within a short space of time. Nearly a third of the fleet was eventually displaced elsewhere, which is quite a change.

Interestingly, the class 508 fleet found a substantial number of units redundant from their Liverpool home by half-life.
 
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Interestingly, the class 508 fleet found a substantial number of units redundant from their Liverpool home by half-life.
There, electrification (as far as it has got) didn't produce the ridership increase which had been planned for, and so the peak service density was thinned rapidly.

Was this fleet also sized to cover Outer Loop services as well, i.e. infrastructure which didn't get built in the 1970s? There were also ambitions to electrify to Wigan at the time.

Not getting electrification to Hooton until 1986 and Ellesmere Port/Chester until 1994 won't have helped either, but the big factor surely is the massive economic decline in Liverpool in the period which meant there were not the (city centre) jobs to support commuting growth for a long time.
 
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