Why was the Humber Bridge not built as a road AND rail link?

[Harlesden]

It would have eased congestion on the ECML with Hull trains from London leaving the ECML at Peterborough to proceed via Spalding, Sleaford, Lincoln and Market Rasen to Barnetby with a new link between Barnetby and Barton Upon Humber built enabling services to run over the Humber Bridge.
Alternative - forgetting the Humber Bridge - a new link between Barnetby and Goole joining the existing line to Hull.
Advantages - only uses the ECML for a short distance - improved service via Spalding, Sleaford and Lincoln - direct linking of Lincoln and Barnetby with Hull.
Disadvantages - might provide NR with an excuse to close the Barton Line and replace it with a shuttle service Cleethorpes/Grimsby Town to Barnetby.

 

[Tomnick]

At the time, there was only a single Hull - London train. By the time you'd run it via Barton, Ulceby (a direct route to Barnetby would be quite an undertaking!), Barnetby, Lincoln, Sleaford (reversing in passenger service ay Lincoln wasn't possible until the resignalling) etc., you'd almost have to provide sleeping accommodation! It's a pointless structure for long distance traffic (anyone coming from south of the wilds of rural Lincs by road would be better served by the M1/M18/M62, so its only real demand comes from those few people south of the river who feel the need to go to Hull (or, for better fish and chips, Hornsea )

 

[Chapeltom]

It would have eased congestion on the ECML with Hull trains from London leaving the ECML at Peterborough to proceed via Spalding, Sleaford, Lincoln and Market Rasen to Barnetby with a new link between Barnetby and Barton Upon Humber built enabling services to run over the Humber Bridge.
Alternative - forgetting the Humber Bridge - a new link between Barnetby and Goole joining the existing line to Hull.
Advantages - only uses the ECML for a short distance - improved service via Spalding, Sleaford and Lincoln - direct linking of Lincoln and Barnetby with Hull.
Disadvantages - might provide NR with an excuse to close the Barton Line and replace it with a shuttle service Cleethorpes/Grimsby Town to Barnetby.

Has there any previous move, i.e. in the last 20 years or so to shut the Barton Line?

 

[Grimsby town]

I've always thought the best option would be a tunnel/bridge from New Holland across to Hull. This coupled with a new Beverley to York line would make a great diversionary line for the ECML and freight.

It'd also be very useful for local services
You could have an hourly service from Cleethorpes to York calling at Grimsby Town, Habrough, Goxhill, New Holland, Hull, Cottingham, Beverley, Market Weighton, Pocklington, Stamford Bridge and York

Replace the current Barton service with an hourly service from Cleethorpes to Hull all stops.
Barton could be served by a PPM which would run every 20 mins.

The Hull trains service could be diverted as above and a Nottingham to Hull service started which would have a journey time of around 2 hours. I think that this would have such a great effect on the surrounding areas economy as well as provide some national benefits that it might be feasible. I doubt there'd be the political will though.

 

[High Dyke]

Would the size of the bridge, allowing clearance for shipping, have been a contributory factor? Unless of course they considered a section of moving deck (e.g. Kingsferry).

Had a primary school visit to Hull once. Two class 114 units rattling along the ECML to Newark, then via Lincoln, Barnetby, Ulceby and onto New Holland Pier for the ferry; the bridge was still being constructed at the time.

 

[Tomnick]

It'd be a fair climb onto the bridge for rail traffic if the same profile had been used as the existing. It's noticeable enough when cycling over! It's interesting to note that, in one thread, folk are quite rightly being challenged over proposals that involve nobbling a single unit for an improved Brigg, yet here we're seriously talking about a lengthy tunnel and a fair few miles of new railway...to connect Hull to not very much!

 

[Caertroia]

The Humber Bridge was famously authorized by the Transport Minister, Barbara Castle, and the Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, in 1966 in order to win a by-election in Hull. People in Hull complained about how long it took to get to and from the city from the south. It was only possibly on a ferry across the Humber or by driving through Goole, and there was no M18 then connecting to the M1. Adding a railway track to the bridge would have been even madder. In 1966 no one was building new railway lines.

 

[swissrailpassion]

At the time, there was only a single Hull - London train. By the time you'd run it via Barton, Ulceby (a direct route to Barnetby would be quite an undertaking!), Barnetby, Lincoln, Sleaford (reversing in passenger service ay Lincoln wasn't possible until the resignalling) etc., you'd almost have to provide sleeping accommodation! It's a pointless structure for long distance traffic (anyone coming from south of the wilds of rural Lincs by road would be better served by the M1/M18/M62, so its only real demand comes from those few people south of the river who feel the need to go to Hull (or, for better fish and chips, Hornsea )

Hull had 4 or 5 daily rains when the Humber Bridge was planned in the 70's when the UK was bankrupt and we were surviving on loans from the IMF. Construction was slow and difficult and the work was delayed before it started. The width of the estuary was such that the suspension system was the only choice and this was not suitable for rail. It was the world's longest when it opened and bridge design has advanced since then. Maybe if they'd waited 20 years more a road rail bridge design would be have been possible?

The fast rail route is naturally straight to the ECML at Selby or via Goole. BR ran via Goole for political reasons. The decline in service began later and eventually rostering HSTs in an electric service proved too complicated to maximise fleet use. Hull was badly served. A few years later...enter Hull trains.
Any service across a road rail bridge would end up in Lincs and thereby it would miss Grimsby/Cleethorpes and Scunthorpe in order to go south to Lincoln which was a rather sleepy place until recently. Most of the trains would run at most a third full until Newark. They would also arrive later at Newark or Peterborough than a Hull train via Doncaster.

At the time of building the Humber Bridge was a white elephant and a road to nowhere - in a sense it still is. Better road links to Hull have resulted in migration away from Hull. The population has fallen considerably since the late seventies.
Grimsby/Cleethorpes had direct KGX trains and a restoration of a daily HST or 180 to Cleethorpes via Lincoln is a good idea, I'm sure a market could be grown.

 

[HullMichael]

When the Hull & Barnsley Railway was being planned in the nineteenth century, a route away from the existing NER had to be found. A tunnel under the Humber was considered for a while, until the northerly route through the Wolds was chosen.

 

[GingerSte]

From an engineering viewpoint...

Suspension bridges are inherently flexible, and will twist to some degree. This increases the risks of derailment (the limits for this are rightly very tight). They are therefore generally not considered suitable for railways. I'm not aware of any long-span suspension bridges that carry railways (although I'm sure one of you will prove me wrong).

Cable-stayed bridges, on the other hand, are considered viable for railways due to their increased stiffness. However, longer spans are much harder with this type of bridge. From Wikipedia, the Humber Bridge is still longer than the longest cable-stayed bridge in the world (1410m central span Vs 1104m on the Russky Bridge) despite it being 30-odd years old.

(And the financial/transport reasons already discussed.)

 

[Trog]

From an engineering viewpoint...

Suspension bridges are inherently flexible, and will twist to some degree. This increases the risks of derailment (the limits for this are rightly very tight). They are therefore generally not considered suitable for railways. I'm not aware of any long-span suspension bridges that carry railways (although I'm sure one of you will prove me wrong).

The Royal Albert Bridge at Saltash built by you know who, is technically a suspension bridge.

 

[HSTEd]

From an engineering viewpoint...

Suspension bridges are inherently flexible, and will twist to some degree. This increases the risks of derailment (the limits for this are rightly very tight). They are therefore generally not considered suitable for railways. I'm not aware of any long-span suspension bridges that carry railways (although I'm sure one of you will prove me wrong).

The 'Minami Bisan-Seto' Bridge is a two tiered road-rail bridge (it is part of the 'Great Seto Bridge' system) although it apparently only has an 1100m centre span.
There is a 940m span north of it called the "Shimotsui-Seto Bridge" which is part of the same crossing.

The railway is apparently on the bottom deck and is thus encased in a cage which would probably keep the track rigid even as the deck flexes slightly. It would seem to indicate that a combined road rail bridge that is longer could probably be built, but it is hard to think of a situation that would call for one.

EDIT:
The plans for the Sunda Strait bridge main span of 3300m apparently call for a double deck structure with a railway on the lower level, that no-one has attacked that design would seem to suggest that the problems are considered soluble.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There's a single-track cable-suspended bridge on the metre gauge Cerdagne line in French Catalonia (see the 'Little Yellow Train' thread in the International Transport section) but it's not shared with road and is considerably shorter than the Humber Bridge!

 

[edwin_m]

The Royal Albert Bridge at Saltash built by you know who, is technically a suspension bridge.

It's actually a beam suspended from an arch, so combines all three main types of bridge.

The Bay Bridge in San Francisco is a suspension bridge and used to carry interurban rail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Bay_Bridge

 

[TBY-Paul]

Can I add

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25_de_Abril_Bridge

We sailed under this bridge a few years ago, just as a train was crossing, its was 5.30 am just as the sun was rising, its was a sight to behold.

 

[snowball]

Cable-stayed bridges, on the other hand, are considered viable for railways due to their increased stiffness. However, longer spans are much harder with this type of bridge. From Wikipedia, the Humber Bridge is still longer than the longest cable-stayed bridge in the world (1410m central span Vs 1104m on the Russky Bridge) despite it being 30-odd years old.

Also, I don't think cable-stayed bridges really began to catch on in the UK, even for road bridges, until some years later. We now have several major ones: Kessock, Flintshire, Second Severn Crossing...

 

[krus_aragon]

From an engineering viewpoint...

Suspension bridges are inherently flexible, and will twist to some degree. This increases the risks of derailment (the limits for this are rightly very tight). They are therefore generally not considered suitable for railways. I'm not aware of any long-span suspension bridges that carry railways (although I'm sure one of you will prove me wrong).

Telford's Menai Suspension Bridge was, according to the original Chester and Holyhead Railway plans, to have one of its carriageways replaced with tracks and for carriages to be hauled across by stationary engine. Then Stephenson presented his "Great Britannia Tubular Bridge" as a better solution.

 

[westv]

I'm glad this idea never took off. It's a bit slow now but the suggested route would have taken forever to get to London.

 

[stevefreestone]

At the time, there was only a single Hull - London train. By the time you'd run it via Barton, Ulceby (a direct route to Barnetby would be quite an undertaking!), Barnetby, Lincoln, Sleaford (reversing in passenger service ay Lincoln wasn't possible until the resignalling) etc., you'd almost have to provide sleeping accommodation! It's a pointless structure for long distance traffic (anyone coming from south of the wilds of rural Lincs by road would be better served by the M1/M18/M62, so its only real demand comes from those few people south of the river who feel the need to go to Hull (or, for better fish and chips, Hornsea )

Not exactly true in that it connects a large part of the population, as well as an easier route M180/M18/M62/A1/M1 than going around the houses.

The A15 Lincoln to Scunthorpe isn't brilliant I'd admit, but it's still quicker than A1/M18.

 

[Max]

Not exactly true in that it connects a large part of the population, as well as an easier route M180/M18/M62/A1/M1 than going around the houses.

The A15 Lincoln to Scunthorpe isn't brilliant I'd admit, but it's still quicker than A1/M18.

Indeed, now the A46 is dual carriageway from Lincoln-Leicester (excluding the short Newark bypass), the Humber Bridge provides a quick route from Hull towards the A1 and even the M1.

 

[Donny Dave]

Indeed, now the A46 is dual carriageway from Lincoln-Leicester (excluding the short Newark bypass), the Humber Bridge provides a quick route from Hull towards the A1 and even the M1.

hock: Have you travelled along the A15 from Barnetby Top to Lincoln recently?

It's quicker to go A15 - M180 - A18 (towards Scunthorpe) - B1398 and navigate your wat through Lincoln than it is to go straight down the A15. Better still, stay on the A63 and M62 out of Hull, it's even quicker ....

 

[matchmaker]

It's a pity the Dornoch Firth Bridge was built as road only. The railway has to make a long diversion inland at this point.

 

[pablo]

Telford's Menai Suspension Bridge was, according to the original Chester and Holyhead Railway plans, to have one of its carriageways replaced with tracks and for carriages to be hauled across by stationary engine. Then Stephenson presented his "Great Britannia Tubular Bridge" as a better solution.

I'm glad that idea was cast aside. Telford's bridge is shakey enough without rail. I don't know how he slept at night. It was beefed up during WW2.

 

[snowball]

I'm glad that idea was cast aside. Telford's bridge is shakey enough without rail. I don't know how he slept at night. It was beefed up during WW2.

I think it's been beefed up several times.

In Telford's day there was nothing heavier than a stagecoach.

 

[flymo]

We have the Tsing Ma Bridge out here which carries 6 lanes of traffic on the top deck and a lower enclosed deck incorporating two rail lines with a lane of traffic either side. Even in typhoons it remains operational with road traffic diverted to the enclosed lower deck however the speed may be reduced. The rail service also still operates.

The suspended deck is around 1380m between towers and is still the world's longest road/rail suspension bridge I think. The Humber Bridge would be longer than this.