Why was the Colne - Skipton line removed and why has it never been put back?

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Exactly. While we're at it, why don't get rid of the Colne-Preston service and rip up the Colne-Burnley branch line? After all, you can get a bus from Burnley to Preston. Who needs a train? In fact, there is a bus that goes from Nelson Bus Station to London everyday, why do we need trains at all?

If you "got rid of the Colne-Preston service" you would still have the major stations on the Burnley-Preston part of the route served by existing trains that use the Copy Pit line then onwards to West Yorkshire.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's a pain trying to get from Colne to Manchester at the moment, have to get a bus to Nelson or Burnley and change to X43.

Are there not any X43 services any more that run from Skipton to Manchester, via Colne?

 

[30907]

Are there not any X43 services any more that run from Skipton to Manchester, via Colne?

There are, and they run nonstop from Colne Muni (theatre) to Burnley bus station via the M65.
ISTR there was a brief period when they avoided Colne town centre and served Nelson travel interchange, which may be what PacerTrain142 remembers.

 

[edwin_m]

I don’t know anything about buses but does the current Colne to Skipton service meet demand? If it does then there is no reason to rebuild the route. If it doesn’t then would it be cheaper to improve the bus links rather than rebuild the line? Almost certainly. Bear in mind Skipton bus station is much more central than the rail station and from what I understand the same applies to Would rebuilding the line be of more benefit than improving the bus service? Doubtful.

Buses don't really work well where there are long distances, large numbers of passengers or serious traffic congestion. Do any of these apply between Colne and Skipton? It seems to me the sort of route where a bus integrated with train times, featured in the rail timetable and with through ticketing and Delay Repay would plug any hole in the network far cheaper than reinstating the railway. And if the bus-rail link attracted large numbers of passengers then that might prove the case for re-opening the railway. Of course bus deregulation makes it impossible to pursue that sort of option...

Commuting to Leeds is another reason given. There is an hourly Burnley to Leeds service. To overcome either a lengthy walk between stations at Burnley or changing at Accrington could the York - Blackpool service call additionally at Rose Grove as per the Blackburn to Manchester service to provide a convenient interchange from the Colne line? The answer is almost certainly yes as these services have considerable pathing times over Copy Pit, especially eastbound. Is this more cost beneficial than the 12 mile rebuild? Absolutely.

It's a good idea in principle but would be difficult to make work in practice because of the limitations of the existing infrastructure and timetable. A journey from Rose Grove to Colne and back takes just under an hour so each train to Colne must pass the previous one coming back somewhere near Rose Grove. Having the York-Preston connecting there would mean the two services in each hour between Burnley and Preston running very close to each other with a long gap. Attempting to connect with the Manchester-Burnley-Blackburn service to provide an shorter route into Manchester would create similar problems.

 

[tbtc]

So true. The buses have sort of taken over round here. The buses are packed but the trains are almost empty. But buses are slow and expensive and the journeys are boring

So despite the fact that the buses cost more than the heavily subsidised trains (presumably a Colne - Burnley return is more than the £3.40 rail fare?), the buses are more popular.

Presumably part of this is because the train stations are nowhere near where people live? That seems a bigger problem (than daydreaming about through services to Leeds).

If the train can't attract people from the valley into Burnley (or onto Blackburn etc), when a bus service exists, then it's not going to attract people to far flung destinations like Leeds.

That would be great if there was. It could be easily implemented as well. Have the train start at Colne and then stop at Rose Grove, driver changes ends and the train changes direction and goes to Burnley Manchester Road and the other stations before arriving at Manchster Piccadilly. Also add a passing loop at Brierfield so that the hourly service to Preston/Blackpool could continue as well as an hourly service from Colne to Manchester

Yes, it'd be much simpler to implement.

But, as ever on here, the mood is "suggest re-opening a line in the first instance, worry about minor practicalities later".

People suggest a Colne - Leeds train because that would justify re-opening a line. People don't suggest something practical/boring … like replacing the service up the Colne branch with an extension of the current (Rochdale) Manchester - Bolton - Blackburn services (i.e. the hourly Blackburn service that doesn't already run through to Clitheroe). No reopenings required (and Manchester is clearly a bigger attraction than Leeds, from that neck of the woods). Why bother with minor improvements that will make a practical difference to people's lives when you can get nostalgic about old lines though, I guess.

 

[PacerTrain142]

Are there not any X43 services any more that run from Skipton to Manchester, via Colne?

There are but only you usually have to catch them from Colne Centre. Most services completely bypass Nelson and Brierfield, as well as any stops between Colne Centre and Burnley Bus Station.

 

[PacerTrain142]

So despite the fact that the buses cost more than the heavily subsidised trains (presumably a Colne - Burnley return is more than the £3.40 rail fare?), the buses are more popular.

Presumably part of this is because the train stations are nowhere near where people live? That seems a bigger problem (than daydreaming about through services to Leeds).

If the train can't attract people from the valley into Burnley (or onto Blackburn etc), when a bus service exists, then it's not going to attract people to far flung destinations like Leeds.

The reason is that the trains are only hourly whereas the buses between Colne and Burnley are every 7/8 minutes. I believe it costs at least £4 for a return from Colne to Burnley so yes it's more expensive to use the bus. The train stations are located in central locations with plenty of houses near them. However, one thing that could encourage more poople to use the train would be to add more intermediate request stops, for example, you could add a station at Barkerhouse Road between Nelson and Colne (where the train has to stop anyway due to a manually operated level crossing), as well as at locations where there used to be a halt at once time: at Bott House Lane between Nelson and Colne and one around the Reedly/Barden Lane area between Brierfield and Burnley Central.

For example, I live between Nelson and Colne and so it's impractical for me to use the train as I'm about 20 minutes walk from both stations. I could get the bus, but then I might as well just stay on the bus anyway. But if there was a station closer to my house, I might use the train more often.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

................. intermediate request stops, for example, you could add a station at Barkerhouse Road between Nelson and Colne (where the train has to stop anyway due to a manually operated level crossing), as well as at locations where there used to be a halt at once time: at Bott House Lane between Nelson and Colne and one around the Reedly/Barden Lane area between Brierfield and Burnley Central.

The Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway opened three "railmotor-service" station stops on this line:-
New Hall Bridge Halt...............Closed 1948
Reedley Hallows Halt..............Closed 1956
Bott Lane Halt.......................Closed 1956

 

[Dr Hoo]

It's funny that whenever such discussions come up on the forum, bus services are mentioned in one of two ways:

A) There are lots and lots of buses, therefore we don't need a railway because the route is already well served by buses.

B) There aren't many buses, therefore there's no demand for rail travel.

An interesting post. I would suggest that it is helpful to consider it in relation to relatively modest distances in the context of this thread.
As a BR Service Group (and profit centre) Manager I often looked at the competitive position in relation to buses and it was very hard for a low-frequency rail service with relatively few stations to compete effectively with buses unless there were factors like chronic traffic congestion. To major city centres, fair enough, but we are talking about relatively unattractive station locations in both Colne and Skipton.
In Scotland local rail routes away from Glasgow and Edinburgh found it hard to compete. Even with brand new sprinters lines/serices like Ayr-Troon-Kilmarnock, Dundee-Arbroath and the northern arc of the Fife Circle (Dunfermline-Cowdenbeath-Glenrothes-Kirkcaldy) struggled to gain any commercial traction against bus services that often operated at up to eight times per hour across multiple competing operators. Closer inspection, discussion with local authority transport officers and personal use often established that the pattern of bus routes plugged in well to major traffic generators such as hospitals and education establishments as well as general housing, shopping and business areas in a way that the train usually struggled to emulate. As a connection into longer distance rail services - fine - but this was usually only a small proportion of the overall market.

 

[Jonny]

The other problem is that the topography of East Lancashire generally doesn't lend itself to railway lines unless you want long sections of gradient well above 1%.

 

[158756]

The other problem is that the topography of East Lancashire generally doesn't lend itself to railway lines unless you want long sections of gradient well above 1%.

Nelson and Brierfield aren't badly located, Colne isn't in the town centre but there's plenty of housing nearby. The main problem with the topography is that neither line could get down into Burnley town centre - the canal did better, but with big embankments, tunnels and a very wiggly route. Even if all stations were ideally placed though, 1 train vs 8 buses per hour over a distance of seven miles is not going to work out well for the train. For travel beyond Burnley, the train is very slow and the M65 very fast (because it doesn't go anywhere past Colne).

 

[Ken H]

It all comes down to nice to haves rather than must haves. This route was closed due to economics. Would those economics stand up in today’s market bearing in mind the costs of such a rebuild? How long would it take for this small stretch of line to pay for itself?

What could be done as an alternative?

I don’t know anything about buses but does the current Colne to Skipton service meet demand? If it does then there is no reason to rebuild the route. If it doesn’t then would it be cheaper to improve the bus links rather than rebuild the line? Almost certainly. Bear in mind Skipton bus station is much more central than the rail station and from what I understand the same applies to Would rebuilding the line be of more benefit than improving the bus service? Doubtful.

Commuting to Leeds is another reason given. There is an hourly Burnley to Leeds service. To overcome either a lengthy walk between stations at Burnley or changing at Accrington could the York - Blackpool service call additionally at Rose Grove as per the Blackburn to Manchester service to provide a convenient interchange from the Colne line? The answer is almost certainly yes as these services have considerable pathing times over Copy Pit, especially eastbound. Is this more cost beneficial than the 12 mile rebuild? Absolutely.

Alternatively I know many people drive to Steeton & Silsden from the area to take advantage of the cheaper fares from there to Leeds. It’s not a particularly long drive and Steeton car park is about to be extended with 2 new decks. Would people sack this commute for a direct train service with little or no time saving but much additional cost? I doubt it.

As I say, Colne to Skipton appears to be a nice to have than a must have. As always, cost is the biggest driver and I can’t honestly see how this link would add up financially.

The X43 isnt an express bus between Skipton and Colne, its a stopper that winds through Barlick. 35 minutes for 10 miles shortest road distance.

 

[Ken H]

Nelson and Brierfield aren't badly located, Colne isn't in the town centre but there's plenty of housing nearby. The main problem with the topography is that neither line could get down into Burnley town centre - the canal did better, but with big embankments, tunnels and a very wiggly route. Even if all stations were ideally placed though, 1 train vs 8 buses per hour over a distance of seven miles is not going to work out well for the train. For travel beyond Burnley, the train is very slow and the M65 very fast (because it doesn't go anywhere past Colne).

get to the end of the M65 and you get rammed through Colne, tangled up in shopping traffic.

 

[6Gman]

So many anti rail and pro bus people on a Rail Forum. Strange

Really? Care to identify them? I don't recognise them as "anti rail and pro bus", just pointing out reality.

 

[6Gman]

So true. The buses have sort of taken over round here. The buses are packed but the trains are almost empty. But buses are slow and expensive and the journeys are boring. I think an excellent way to improve the rail service round here would be to convert the line to a light rail system ie like Tyne and Wear Metro, have more frequent trains ie half hourly instead of hourly, add a passing loop at Brierfield and extend the line to Skipton. Just think - commuters/shoppers could easily travel from Skipton/Keighley to Burnley/Blackburn.

But how many commuters/shoppers want to travel between those places?

 

[6Gman]

Exactly. While we're at it, why don't get rid of the Colne-Preston service and rip up the Colne-Burnley branch line?

Because there is no political will to close existing railways.

(See also Blaenau Ffestiniog branch, Heart of Wales Line etc etc )

 

[randyrippley]

So true. The buses have sort of taken over round here. The buses are packed but the trains are almost empty. But buses are slow and expensive and the journeys are boring. I think an excellent way to improve the rail service round here would be to convert the line to a light rail system ie like Tyne and Wear Metro, have more frequent trains ie half hourly instead of hourly, add a passing loop at Brierfield and extend the line to Skipton. Just think - commuters/shoppers could easily travel from Skipton/Keighley to Burnley/Blackburn.

Shoppers are not going to travel from Skipton or Keighley to Blackburn / Burnley. They'll just go to Leeds or Bradford - but no-one goes shopping by train now anyway. And no-one goes TO Blackburn or Burnley to go shopping............
As for commuting the ideas laughable. Minimal industry to attract workers, and what there is, is nowhere near the stations

 

[6Gman]

Shoppers are not going to travel from Skipton or Keighley to Blackburn / Burnley. They'll just go to Leeds or Bradford - but no-one goes shopping by train now anyway. And no-one goes TO Blackburn or Burnley to go shopping............
As for commuting the ideas laughable. Minimal industry to attract workers, and what there is, is nowhere near the stations

I see plenty of shopping bags on trains out of Chester, Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool.

But I doubt the four towns mentioned are in that category!

(Apologies if Blackburn is technically a city.)

 

[johnnychips]

(Apologies if Blackburn is technically a city.)

Although it has a cathedral, it isn't a city.

 

[PacerTrain142]

Shoppers are not going to travel from Skipton or Keighley to Blackburn / Burnley. They'll just go to Leeds or Bradford - but no-one goes shopping by train now anyway. And no-one goes TO Blackburn or Burnley to go shopping............
As for commuting the ideas laughable. Minimal industry to attract workers, and what there is, is nowhere near the stations

I do.... In fact I know a few people who do on regular basis. Burnley shopping centre ain't that bad you know.

Someone told me Skipton was a lot better but as I don't drive and there isn't a train service/decent bus service there, it's a no-go for me.

 

[PacerTrain142]

The Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway opened three "railmotor-service" station stops on this line:-
New Hall Bridge Halt...............Closed 1948
Reedley Hallows Halt..............Closed 1956
Bott Lane Halt.......................Closed 1956

The Bott Lane Halt is literally right next to my house... If it were re-built I'd definetely use the train a lot more, as it stands I have a 25 minute walk to either Nelson or Colne station or I have to catch a bus (and if the bus is running late, which they very often are round here, I've blown catching my train).

 

[PacerTrain142]

Nelson and Brierfield aren't badly located, Colne isn't in the town centre but there's plenty of housing nearby. The main problem with the topography is that neither line could get down into Burnley town centre - the canal did better, but with big embankments, tunnels and a very wiggly route. Even if all stations were ideally placed though, 1 train vs 8 buses per hour over a distance of seven miles is not going to work out well for the train. For travel beyond Burnley, the train is very slow and the M65 very fast (because it doesn't go anywhere past Colne).

Indeed it is, until there's an accident and you're stuck in traffic for 30 minutes...

 

[PacerTrain142]

So despite the fact that the buses cost more than the heavily subsidised trains (presumably a Colne - Burnley return is more than the £3.40 rail fare?), the buses are more popular.

Presumably part of this is because the train stations are nowhere near where people live? That seems a bigger problem (than daydreaming about through services to Leeds).

If the train can't attract people from the valley into Burnley (or onto Blackburn etc), when a bus service exists, then it's not going to attract people to far flung destinations like Leeds.



Yes, it'd be much simpler to implement.

But, as ever on here, the mood is "suggest re-opening a line in the first instance, worry about minor practicalities later".

People suggest a Colne - Leeds train because that would justify re-opening a line. People don't suggest something practical/boring … like replacing the service up the Colne branch with an extension of the current (Rochdale) Manchester - Bolton - Blackburn services (i.e. the hourly Blackburn service that doesn't already run through to Clitheroe). No reopenings required (and Manchester is clearly a bigger attraction than Leeds, from that neck of the woods). Why bother with minor improvements that will make a practical difference to people's lives when you can get nostalgic about old lines though, I guess.

I'd never thought about that actually. Wouldn't that be going the long way round to get to Manchester though?

 

[158756]

I'd never thought about that actually. Wouldn't that be going the long way round to get to Manchester though?

Yes. Colne -Manchester via Blackburn would take about 90 minutes, a train reversing at Rose Grove about 70. Off peak and peak time limited stop buses also take about 90 minutes. Via Blackburn would have the advantage of not needing any extra paths or units though.

Indeed it is, until there's an accident and you're stuck in traffic for 30 minutes...

Car accidents, signal failures, trespassers can happen however you travel, but will happen less on what must be one of the quietest motorways in the country.

 

[daodao]

Skipton-Colne was a minor route between lesser towns that does not run directly into a major city, and also crosses a major a regional boundary. It does not form part of a potential strategic through route and has a poor case for re-opening.

There is already a direct rail route (the Copy Pit line) linking the major towns of the West Riding and Central Lancashire that was reinstated as proper service in the 1980s, having previously been degraded and used only for limited freight traffic and holiday trains to Blackpool.

 

[edwin_m]

Yes. Colne -Manchester via Blackburn would take about 90 minutes, a train reversing at Rose Grove about 70. Off peak and peak time limited stop buses also take about 90 minutes. Via Blackburn would have the advantage of not needing any extra paths or units though.

However the Colne branch is a long siding where it takes nearly an hour for a train to go out and back from Rose Grove. So a Manchester-Colne service vie either Blackburn or Todmorden would either replace the existing Preston-Colne service and inconvenience existing passengers, or need a passing loop to increase branch capacity to 2TPH. However a passing loop would be much cheaper than reinstating the line to Skipton, and a more frequent Colne service means there is a better chance of making a decent connection towards Leeds at either Rose Grove or Todmorden.

 

[30907]

However the Colne branch is a long siding where it takes nearly an hour for a train to go out and back from Rose Grove. So a Manchester-Colne service vie either Blackburn or Todmorden would either replace the existing Preston-Colne service and inconvenience existing passengers, or need a passing loop to increase branch capacity to 2TPH. However a passing loop would be much cheaper than reinstating the line to Skipton, and a more frequent Colne service means there is a better chance of making a decent connection towards Leeds at either Rose Grove or Todmorden.

A very sensible suggestion - a dynamic loop between Brierfield and Nelson would work nicely. Whether there is a business case for the additional trains I dont know, but I have long thought that Blackburn-Preston could use 3tph.

 

[Ianno87]

I'd never thought about that actually. Wouldn't that be going the long way round to get to Manchester though?

However the Colne branch is a long siding where it takes nearly an hour for a train to go out and back from Rose Grove. So a Manchester-Colne service vie either Blackburn or Todmorden would either replace the existing Preston-Colne service and inconvenience existing passengers, or need a passing loop to increase branch capacity to 2TPH. However a passing loop would be much cheaper than reinstating the line to Skipton, and a more frequent Colne service means there is a better chance of making a decent connection towards Leeds at either Rose
Grove or Todmorden.

Problem you'll get is that the paths dictated by current passing places at Bromley Cross/Darwen may not join up with the single line from Gannow Jn to Colne. A passing loop on the Colne branch might not suit both a Manchester and a Preston service very neatly.

 

[Meerkat]

Re the railbus to Skipton idea.
Does deregulation/other regulation prevent railway companies from doing their own railbus?
The councils can chip in too if they are so sure there is a market, or are they only happy spending other people’s money?

 

[edwin_m]

Problem you'll get is that the paths dictated by current passing places at Bromley Cross/Darwen may not join up with the single line from Gannow Jn to Colne. A passing loop on the Colne branch might not suit both a Manchester and a Preston service very neatly.

For that reason and because of the journey time difference mentioned above, I was thinking of a Manchester service via Todmorden reversing at Rose Grove not via Blackburn. Although that does have its own timetable issues, notably the single line Todmorden Curve and capacity into Manchester.