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Why TV licensing should be abolished

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yorkie

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http://youtube.com/watch?v=qc-hi4kR2NM

Old video I know, but I hadn't seen this before.

IMO it's time to de-criminalise various 'offences' such as TV licensing, and ticket 'evasion' and make them civil matters, and people should be assumed to be more innocent than at present. There are too many jobsworths out there who enjoy persecuting the general public knowing that the law will be on their side rather than the innocent public.

If you hit someone, it is not considered serious. If you forget to buy a train ticket or you forget to pay your TV license, then it is VERY serious. People who commit violent crimes are rewarded in this country with very lenient sentences.
 
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Nick W

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I personally also think that they should abolish all forms of penalties and fines, (though not of course damages and costs), such as penalty fares, speeding fines, parking fine, tv liscence fine, DVLA fines and the like, and allow the proffessional discretion of guards and policemen, backed of course by courts.

The law should not be altered into a corrupt money raising scheme. Essentially I'm asking for recriminalisation, since it's typically decriminalising that ends up turning into a money game.
 

Mojo

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Yes, but the standard required for Civil law is much lower than for Criminal, so more people of a lower fault level will be blamed.
 

Tom B

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Yes, but the standard required for Civil law is much lower than for Criminal, so more people of a lower fault level will be blamed.

Precisely - "balance of probabilities" instead of "beyond all reasonable doubt".

As for the TV license, I don't mind, it keeps Radio 4 free :D.
 

yorkie

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Yes, but the standard required for Civil law is much lower than for Criminal, so more people of a lower fault level will be blamed.
OK, I didn't realise that. Although that does explain how and why Farce were able to ching people on the ridiculous joke that is the "ftr". On the other hand, the fact that the jobsworth inspectors know that the law is on their side and that taxpayers will foot the bill to take the people they persecute to court, is not good. If these companies had to foot the bill in a civil case then they may not be so pushy, and also they could not use such threatening language.

Nick W mentions parking fines, and these were decriminalised.

Is our legal system really so messed up that there is no way to stop disgraceful companies from threatening innocent members of the public with criminal records, and not end up with a system where they are found guilty on balance of probability either?

Our country really is screwed, and no wonder violent chavs thrive here when they know that someone who forgot to pay a TV license is going to be in far more trouble than they will be if they go and beat someone up.
 

TheSlash

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Our country really is screwed, and no wonder violent chavs thrive here when they know that someone who forgot to pay a TV license is going to be in far more trouble than they will be if they go and beat someone up.
Depends how you deal with it. I had a run in with some chavs a few weeks ago. At the time, they out numbered me and i came off worse, but i dealt with it.
I went home, i thought about it, i gave the Police a chance, and then i called for some assistance from within the city. We waited a few weeks, we went into the pub, singled out the main suspects, beat them up using various pieces of bar furniture, job done. Simple.
 

NSEFAN

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I personally also think that they should abolish all forms of penalties and fines...such as speeding fines

Well, rather than giving you a fine and points on yer license, nowadays they offer you the choice to go on a course. They show you videos and statistics on how speeding can cause terrible crashes.

But that still doesn't stop the morons who take roundabouts at 70mph+ and crash and run over some innocent pedestrian... :sad:

I don't know about you guys but the safest place for me to be is locked up in my house away from people like this, just because THEY aren't locked up or dealt with properly :sad:
 

yorkie

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Well, rather than giving you a fine and points on yer license, nowadays they offer you the choice to go on a course. They show you videos and statistics on how speeding can cause terrible crashes.
Yup, if someone endangers lives they get told not to do it again and are shown a video, then they get the chance to do it again if they wish. Nice...:roll:
But that still doesn't stop the morons who take roundabouts at 70mph+ and crash and run over some innocent pedestrian... :sad:
Indeed, someone can be an awful driver who doesn't give a damn about anyone, but they'll still be on the road. Is there anyone who has been disqualified from driving for life? I've not heard of it. If a 15 year old steals a car and crashes, they'll be given a 2 year ban from driving, or something daft.
I don't know about you guys but the safest place for me to be is locked up in my house away from people like this, just because THEY aren't locked up or dealt with properly :sad:
I'm not going to stop going out because of them, but I agree they certainly should be delt with. People who lose their train tickets are delt with far more harshly and can be given criminal records far more easily than rogue motorists. Why aren't there posters up naming and shaming people for motoring offences? why aren't there videos threatening them with criminal records? This country is absolutely obsessed with letting people get away with violent and dangerous acts but treats people who have possibly just lost their train ticket as far more dangerous individuals. As one police officer said (along the words of) "If you want to murder someone, then run them over with a car, and you'll get a very lenient sentence" or something like that. It's a disgrace.
 

NSEFAN

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This country is absolutely obsessed with letting people get away with violent and dangerous acts but treats people who have possibly just lost their train ticket as far more dangerous individuals.

I think it's to do with all these 'targets' the police are set.

Say one crime, no matter what it is, is worth one 'point'. Solving a murder and sending the murderer to prison is equal to giving out an on-the-spot fine for smoking somewhere you aren't supposed to. As it requires less effort to deal with the lesser crimes, the police will spend more effort on the smaller offences as they will seen to be doing a good job because their total number of dealt-with crimes will be higher overall.

And I reckon targets are what mess up the NHS, the railways and many other things: They are set with good intentions but always have a negative knock-on effect elsewhere :sad:
 

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Actually, a policeman on the radio the other day said that [the non traffic staff] are more reluctant to stop drink drivers and the like because it's not classed as a crime "solved."

Dangerous driving used to carry a harsh jail sentence, however many juries aquitted clearly guilty people as they knew they'd get sent to jail. As a result, the penalties were changed to disqualification and a non-compulsory jail sentence of up to 2yr.
 

Nick W

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Because of precisely the reasons people have mentioned, this week is scrap speed cameras week, promoting the idea that every camera is reaplaced by a policeman who can pull over a dangerous driver within seconds of seeing their offence, giving them an instant lesson, and acting as an expert witness in court for dangerous driving offences. Chances are that with a stern warning from a human a driver will not reoffend for a while. There would also be far more chances of catching really bad drivers such as those who go round a roundabout at 70mph but know exactly where every camera is to slow down for, And drink drivers and tail gaters would certainly be pulled over far more.

DaFT had the following to say about this:

Speeding kills. It is a contributory factor in 26% of all fatal accidents in Great Britain.

Well accidents don't happen at 0mph, so that should be all accidents. Their own official statistics say that excessive speed is a factor in 7% of accidents, but we were always told 1/3.




The facts are stark. If a child pedestrian is hit at 30mph they stand an 80% chance of surviving.


Hopefully they won't be hit at all, but that comes from observation and prediction, not cruising speed.


But if they are hit at 40mph they stand an 80% chance of dying. That is why the Government is committed to achieving appropriate vehicle speeds on the roads as part of its integrated road safety strategy.

In some places it is appropriate to go 40mph, the police drivers know this. In others places, I have to slow down on my bike on which I can't reach 30mph. I know all the blackspots where I go, and so do local police.




We are succeeding in changing attitudes, and in making drivers realise that one of their responsibilities is to comply with speed limits. The proportion of car drivers who comply with the 30mph limit has greatly increased over the last few years.

Well we do have an aging population.


'Safety' cameras provide a valuable and cost-effective method of preventing, detecting and enforcing speed and traffic light offences.

It's always cost-effective when fines are involved. The truth is that a driver could go 150mph from Cornwall to Scotland setting everything off en-route and they'd take days to be caught, not seconds.






Their use is based on solid evidence. All reliable research from around the world clearly demonstrates that cameras reduce speeds and save lives.
Independent research (new window), published in December 2005, shows that safety cameras had saved around 1,745 people from being killed or seriously injured, and had prevented around 4,230 personal injury collisions on Britain's roads each year.

Independent research linked says: There was a 22% reduction in personal injury collisions (PICs) at sites after cameras were introduced. Overall 42% fewer people were killed or seriously injured
But hang on they told us that "Speeding is a contributory factor in 26% of all fatal accidents in Great Britain.". Now they must reckon their cameras are stopping drink driving, failure to observe properly, and blatant reckless driving? Clearly one of both of their figures is flawed.





And while they are saving lives, safety cameras will remain a key part of our road safety strategy.

Nothing to say about more police on the roads then?
 

Tom B

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Sorry but anyone who complains about speed cameras is stupid - you're breaking the law by speeding, and are just bitter you got caught! With a lot of drivers speeding has become the "norm" or something acceptable to do.
 

ChrisCooper

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The thing I object to with speed cameras is that the give the same treatment to a generally good driver who just slips a little over the limit and someone who makes a habbit of ignoring the speed limit by large amounts.
It wouldn't be so bad if they gave a 5mph leaway on top of the limit (currently it's 10%, but that just allows 2mph in a 20 yet 7mph in a 70). What makes it worse if that during training it's drilled into drivers to keep up at the limit when conditions allow, and you can get faults or even fail for driving too slow, so people tend to regard speed limits as a target, not a limit. The other problem with cameras, as mentioned is that they only catch speeders, and are useless for other offenses, and the rise in speed cameras has lead to a reduction in traffic police. One thing I do like are the average speed cameras that are becoming more common, that measure your time over a section of road and from that your average speed to see if you were speeding. These mean people have to keep their speed down over a whole section, not just passing the camera, and also allow more room for error.
Finally, I'm sure the old system of setting speed limits based on what 2/3 (or something like that) of drivers would be doing anyway is no longer used, since a lot of roads have limits that seem wrong. It's particularly an issue with 30s and 40s, with some 30s that feel like they should be 40 and some 40s that feel like 30s. I know of a few roads that despite knowing the limit I often end up too fast or too slow since the road is telling me I'm at the wrong speed.
 

Nick W

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Sorry but anyone who complains about speed cameras is stupid - you're breaking the law by speeding, and are just bitter you got caught! With a lot of drivers speeding has become the "norm" or something acceptable to do.

Says a lot about drivers here, also says something about our "democracy".

Interestingly when i'm cycling that hour cumulative daily in term time I'd rather drivers concentrated on me not their speedo. And if overtaking me at 40mph with a lot of room is safer that them edging past more closer at 20mph, or getting frustrated behind me (frustration kills), then so be it. Of course I'd be unimpressed if I was keeping up with the traffic (which I reckon is my safest speed and is achievable in many urban conditions), and was overtaken but of course that driver is not speeding so legal in your opinion.

But as you said I must be stupid and bitter that I can't even set off red light cameras.
 

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I'm a learner driver about to take my test and even then I don't concentrate on my speedo. I know the vehicles I drive, and I know how fast I feel I'm going. Momentary glances on the speedo is all that is required, and I certaintly wouldn't check it whilst overtaking slow vehicles or in a busy street with pedestrians walking in the road.
 

yorkie

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What a great justice system we have (!)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4741212.stm 9 months for copying CDs. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/6254420.stm this - killing a baby - is only slightly more serious at 15 months.

So, killing someone is only 70% more serious than copying a few DVDs? Why does our country give so much priority to protecting rich, overpaid, slobs and corporate business, and so little priority to protecting the public from violence?

It's a disgrace.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What's worse? Copying a few DVDs or repeatedly kicking, punching and stamping on someone? An act so violent that a judge said "People have died, they have been killed, in assaults less ferocious." !!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6692861.stm

Yep, you guessed it, copying DVDs is far, far worse according to our farcical right-wing biased "justice" system.:x
 

Mojo

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The baby case - he was convicted of Manslaughter, using the defence of Provocation I am assuming. Thus, many factors would have to have been proven to the jury which they would have allowed and the judge would have taken into account when sentencing.

It's also worth noting the 1st case was in Scotland, which has a different legal system & the penalties may differ.

However, the new "On the spot" penalties can become a bit of a joke. GBP75 from a bloke from the council for dropping litter vs minimal fines from Magistrates for ABH.
 

rmt

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The baby case - he was convicted of Manslaughter, using the defence of Provocation I am assuming. Thus, many factors would have to have been proven to the jury which they would have allowed and the judge would have taken into account when sentencing.

It's also worth noting the 1st case was in Scotland, which has a different legal system & the penalties may differ.

However, the new "On the spot" penalties can become a bit of a joke. GBP75 from a bloke from the council for dropping litter vs minimal fines from Magistrates for ABH.

Its always difficult to see sentencing from an 'impartial' view, especially when it involves a child being killed.

As Mojo has said, the first one was sentenced under guidelines imposed by the Scottish Government.

In the second one, there appear to have been mitigating circumstances, but I need to read more into them to be able to form a proper opinion.
 

Lewisham2221

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The CSA is a complete farce anyway. Why persue and jail a father who, quite understandably, argues his case against paying child support because 'because his children live with him half of the time', when other fathers who have little/no contact with their children get away with it?

And whilst on the subject of the CSA, surely a more successful method of receiving payment would be to automatically take it from peoples earnings, in the same way that Tax, NI and student loan repayments are taken?
 

Tom B

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The CSA is a complete farce anyway. Why persue and jail a father who, quite understandably, argues his case against paying child support because 'because his children live with him half of the time', when other fathers who have little/no contact with their children get away with it?

And whilst on the subject of the CSA, surely a more successful method of receiving payment would be to automatically take it from peoples earnings, in the same way that Tax, NI and student loan repayments are taken?

However IMO they should never take maintenance payments from fathers who do not get to see their kids. There are an awful lot of cases where the mothers prevent the fathers from seeing their kids, yet demand that they be paid maintenance. And if the father dares as to challenge it, the mother need only alledge 'intimidation' or something to block him out permanently, yet at the same time get money off him.
 
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