Why the 442s?

[alexl92]

I don't know if it's some kind of forum in-joke that I've missed but practically every thread which covers the future of rolling stock in a particular area seems to include suggestions to use Class 442s in some form - diesel conversions, sandwiched between HST power cars, transfer to Northern...
And almost every time the suggestion gets shot down.

I almost won't be surprised the day I see someone suggesting them for use as ECML Thunderbirds.

So what's with the major love-in for the 442s? Are they like Class 20s where they have some inexplicable cult following who just don't want to see them die? Or is it just that they're a relatively versatile design?

 

[NSEFAN]

It's probably because they're not perceived as old or worn out, at least by many enthusiasts. They may "only" be 1988 vintage compared to the similar HST vehicles of the 70s or Pacers of 1985, but being a 3rd rail intercity EMU means there's only a few routes which may be suitable for them. Being non-standard compared to most modern EMUs now also doesn't help, hence we have all sorts of schemes being proposed to re-use the carriages elsewhere. The whole D train story seems to have fuelled this fire somewhat, although they are at the end of the day an intercity design train and we've already got plenty of those!

 

[BestWestern]

Yes, it has become an in-joke. Other similar jokes include the same arguments regarding redundant HSTs, and of course the ongoing Pacer debacle.

There are good reasons why it would be a shame to see the 442s scrapped, however their future currently looks uncertain.

 

[The Ham]

So what's with the major love-in for the 442s? Are they like Class 20s where they have some inexplicable cult following who just don't want to see them die? Or is it just that they're a relatively versatile design?

The love is probably due to them being an early example of a good quality EMU (compared to the alternatives at the time) which a lot of people could have used. (Although I think that the 444's are better). There is also (for those who uses them as a SWT unit a certain amount of rose tinted views, especially as Portsmouth is now served by 450's with 3+2 seating. Also it has to be remembered that a lot of the love for them is from their SWT's use which was spared the worst of the problems which have beset them as they've got older.

They do have a bit of a cult following, partly due to them being an "on the cheap" project which BR developed which works. Which means that they are rolled out as an example as to why BR should come back.

They are not a versatile design and are VERY limited to where they are suitable.

 

[RobShipway]

Because of them being Mk3 coaches with air operated doors at each end, they are more suitable as being used on Inter City services, than on the Brighton - London Express services.

When they where used on the SWML, where they were being best used on the services to Bournemouth, Poole and Weymouth.

Even though in another thread that I started I have said about them being used by TPE or Scotrail, my choice would be if the paths where available using them on Brighton - Manchester service behind a class 92.

 

[Emblematic]

They are not a versatile design and are VERY limited to where they are suitable.

I think that's the point. It's a challenge. Most other units are either go-anywhere designs (Desiros, Electrostars) or likely to see out their days on their current routes. Without the 442s we'd have nothing to debate, other than whether someting other than PEPs would fit in the Moorgate and Merseyrail tunnels.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Basically it'll cost way to much to covert them to dual voltage (they're currently 3rd rail only) as they'd likely have to have a new coach inserted due to the design (installing a pan well on the buffet car would probably compromise the structure)

 

[The Snap]

Would it be reasonable to suggest converting the cars back to Mk3 and using loco haulage? Surely there’s not much involved in that, if you ignored the cab-end cars?

There must be routes out there desperate for extra capacity that a loco-hauled rake of Mk3s would satisfy?

I understand about loco-hauled acceleration compared to units etc, but surely there is a suitable route/service that could benefit?

 

[jimm]

The love is probably due to them being an early example of a good quality EMU (compared to the alternatives at the time) which a lot of people could have used. (Although I think that the 444's are better). There is also (for those who uses them as a SWT unit a certain amount of rose tinted views, especially as Portsmouth is now served by 450's with 3+2 seating. Also it has to be remembered that a lot of the love for them is from their SWT's use which was spared the worst of the problems which have beset them as they've got older.

They do have a bit of a cult following, partly due to them being an "on the cheap" project which BR developed which works. Which means that they are rolled out as an example as to why BR should come back.

They are not a versatile design and are VERY limited to where they are suitable.

Take off the third-rail shoes and remove the traction equipment, use one cab as a driving car, stick a diesel or electric loco on one end to provide push-pull power and they are very versatile - and that is rather more likely to be what is being envisaged for them, NOT further use in third-rail land.

There is some discussion in this month's Modern Railways of the point at which loco+coaches is more cost-effective than using unit-type trains - six or so vehicles seems to be key number - and there is nothing to stop the 24 sets being re-formed into a smaller number of longer formations if you discard some of the driving coaches - or send them to East Anglia to provide passenger-carrying Mk3 driving trailers for Norwich-London.

If Abellio and leasing companies are willing to foot the bill for rebuilding older Mk3s from HST sets with power doors and CET toilets, then why on earth would you turn up your nose at reusing some of the last Mk3s built, which already have power doors and CET fitted?

 

[MCR247]

I don't know if it's some kind of forum in-joke that I've missed but practically every thread which covers the future of rolling stock in a particular area seems to include suggestions to use Class 442s in some form - diesel conversions, sandwiched between HST power cars, transfer to Northern...
And almost every time the suggestion gets shot down.

I almost won't be surprised the day I see someone suggesting them for use as ECML Thunderbirds.

So what's with the major love-in for the 442s? Are they like Class 20s where they have some inexplicable cult following who just don't want to see them die? Or is it just that they're a relatively versatile design?

Its funny because lots of the 442 'proposals' are people trying to find (in some cases create) a problem to which 442s can be the solution!

 

[AM9]

Its funny because lots of the 442 'proposals' are people trying to find (in some cases create) a problem to which 442s can be the solution!

That seems to be the way that many threads develop here, e.g. awkward platform lengths to justify new trains or using 125mph geared trains on stopping services by removing much of the passenger accomodation to improve acceleration, etc..
It all makes interesting reading for enthusiasts, but is really only fantasy to the real world.

 

[talltim]

Has anyone suggested yet that they should have been converted for the Caledonian sleeper instead of new built CAF vehicles?

 

[swt_passenger]

The only main point about the 442s not already mentioned above is that their traction equipment was second hand when built, transferred from the Mk1 stock that they replaced. (4REP - latterly class 432) Most of the motors and control gear dates from the mid to late sixties, only some are from 1974.

It's the 50 year old traction equipment that is their achilles heel.

 

[eastwestdivide]

The only main point about the 442s not already mentioned above is that their traction equipment was second hand when built, transferred from the Mk1 stock that they replaced. (4REP - latterly class 432) Most of the motors and control gear dates from the mid to late sixties, only some are from 1974.

It's the 50 year old traction equipment that is their achilles heel.

Same sort of age as the class 73 locos, which are still in regular use and being overhauled with new super diesel engines, so apparently not an insurmountable problem/achilles heel in itself.
As for the quality/reliability/state of comfort of the rest of the train, I'll leave that to others.

I still think the 442s would be perfect for ...


[oh I can't be bothered to make something up - add your own project here]

 

[387star]

I feel Gatwick express have dated the interior and first class seats which don't line up with windows

The backs are covered in a dents

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If they are to be scrapped, I'd hope that 2 or 3 would find their way into preservation. Preferably returned to their original state, with the buffet counter and compartments either as hauled stock or even better able to run under their own power.

 

[The Ham]

Take off the third-rail shoes and remove the traction equipment, use one cab as a driving car, stick a diesel or electric loco on one end to provide push-pull power and they are very versatile - and that is rather more likely to be what is being envisaged for them, NOT further use in third-rail land.

True, but I was talking about in their current form. Any train can be more versatile if you are willing to spend money on them.

 

[JamesRowden]

Same sort of age as the class 73 locos, which are still in regular use and being overhauled with new super diesel engines, so apparently not an insurmountable problem/achilles heel in itself.
As for the quality/reliability/state of comfort of the rest of the train, I'll leave that to others.

I still think the 442s would be perfect for ...


[oh I can't be bothered to make something up - add your own project here]

A 2tph Victoria-Redhill(-Reigate)-Tonbridge-Ashford-Margate/Dover service

Just replace/upgrade the traction system.

 

[jimm]

True, but I was talking about in their current form. Any train can be more versatile if you are willing to spend money on them.

At no point did you say "in their current form", simply made a black and white statement implying they can't be used off the third rail network. This despite them having a Mk3 bodyshell that can go pretty much anywhere on the UK network.

And of course adapting them for new uses will take money - so will rebuilding Mk3s for Abellio's Scottish HST scheme, probably rather more than using coaches from 442s with rather fewer miles on the clock and power doors and CET already installed for a new purpose.

I am no fan of the 'HSTs must run forever' lobby but the 442s are a lot younger than HSTs, considerably so in the case of much of the FGW fleet, and it would be a big silly, when we need all the stock we can get if forecasts are to be believed, to scrap 442 coaches, if they can be put to good use elsewhere for a few more years, while lavishing money on bashing around far older HST trailers.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Would it be reasonable to suggest converting the cars back to Mk3 and using loco haulage?

They weren't converted from loco haulage originally - they were built as they are now.

 

[sprinterguy]

If they are to be scrapped, I'd hope that 2 or 3 would find their way into preservation. Preferably returned to their original state, with the buffet counter and compartments either as hauled stock or even better able to run under their own power.

I may yet be proved wrong, but given the limited facilities and funds available to house and maintain a five carriage EMU, the limited opportunities for operation and the somewhat niche (but, possibly growing, based on the current blossoming of third rail restoration projects) interest group, I think that 2 – 3 entering preservation is being rather optimistic.

 

[The Ham]

At no point did you say "in their current form", simply made a black and white statement implying they can't be used off the third rail network. This despite them having a Mk3 bodyshell that can go pretty much anywhere on the UK network.

My statement was in response to the question "Or is it just that they're a relatively versatile design?" as asked by the OP. I answered that with the view that their design is at present is very restrictive. With a lot of other units being more useful (including arguably Pacers).

If we are talking about is their design any more or less versatile than any other units with regards to a possible future use for them after works which may or may not be cost effective, then they are a lot more versatile than a lot of other units (including Pacers and as you pointed out Mark 3 coaches as used to form HST's).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I may yet be proved wrong, but given the limited facilities and funds available to house and maintain a five carriage EMU, the limited opportunities for operation and the somewhat niche (but, possibly growing, based on the current blossoming of third rail restoration projects) interest group, I think that 2 – 3 entering preservation is being rather optimistic.

Fair point, I should perhaps have clarified that my figure of 3 units was assuming 2 runners and one in reserve, with the remainder having everything reusable stripped off before becoming baked bean tins!

 

[cjmillsnun]

Fair point, I should perhaps have clarified that my figure of 3 units was assuming 2 runners and one in reserve, with the remainder having everything reusable stripped off before becoming baked bean tins!

I suspect there will only be one preserved (probably only a DTS) in the national collection.

 

[Bishopstone]

To answer the original question:

Because many railway enthusiasts want to 'save' everything.

Classes are total rubbish and not fit for purpose, until the moment withdrawal looms, when the fraternity is gripped by misty-eyed nostalgia and formulates plans to re-deploy them to Island Line. So it will be with the Pacers, and probably the 700s when I'm a very old man.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

To answer the original question:

Because many railway enthusiasts want to 'save' everything.

Classes are total rubbish and not fit for purpose, until the moment withdrawal looms, when the fraternity is gripped by misty-eyed nostalgia and formulates plans to re-deploy them to Island Line. So it will be with the Pacers, and probably the 700s when I'm a very old man.

With regard to the 442s, from the moment they were introduced they have generally been well regarded by passengers and staff alike. They've been rather ruined by use on GatEx and the recycled bits are starting to behave as if they're on borrowed time. I'm slightly surprised that there hasn't already (as far as I'm aware) been a serious preservation group set up, considering that the Pacer Preservation Society has been up and running for years now (admittedly they've nothing more than a website and newsletter at this point, but still that's more than any "Pig Preservation Group" has...). If we can save a VEP and keep it running, we really should be able to manage a pair of piggies (10-car being an ideal length for 'Pullman'-type excursions to Weymouth or Brighton).

 

[alexl92]

To answer the original question:

Because many railway enthusiasts want to 'save' everything.

Classes are total rubbish and not fit for purpose, until the moment withdrawal looms, when the fraternity is gripped by misty-eyed nostalgia and formulates plans to re-deploy them to Island Line. So it will be with the Pacers, and probably the 700s when I'm a very old man.

I've seen very few misty-eyed people where cattle trucks are concerned. As long as one of each gets preserved to satisfy the small few who make up the preservation group, even booths is too good for them. God forbid one ever makes it anywhere near the NRM.

 

[paul1609]

Id like to see the 442s used on a new Margate to Weymouth service via a reopened link between Waterloo East and the South West Mainline.
The bridge is still there and it would only require the demolition of a Burger King and Boots to remake the connection and the removal of a 100 Boris Bikes.
Access across the concourse of Waterloo Main station. could be maintained by the use of heritage footbridges displaced from Electrification schemes elsewhere.
The 442s should be non stop between Waterloo East and Southampton Airport, this might require some of SWTs services to be switched to the slow lines but as the Desiros very rarely manage over 70 anyway.

 

[Rhydgaled]

It's probably because they're not perceived as old or worn out, at least by many enthusiasts.

That's a good point, but I think its also something to do with the fact that, there's not much else that falls somewhere between 125mph IC stock and the likes of Electrostars (at least if we're talking electric stock; with diesel there's also 175s, 159s and 158s). The only other EMUs in the same category are the class 444s, and an OHLE version of those gets proposed on here quite often too.

There must be routes out there desperate for extra capacity that a loco-hauled rake of Mk3s would satisfy?

I understand about loco-hauled acceleration compared to units etc, but surely there is a suitable route/service that could benefit?

The big problem with loco-haulage with top-speed <= 110mph as I see it is that there isn't a decent push-pull solution for small rakes (until DRS get round to unleasing their mrk2 DBSOs), a DVT is quite alot of weight and you can't carry passengers in it. There's also the problem that, for diesel traction, both the loco and DVT seem to require modification to get them to work together, there's no pool of diesel locos with TDM that you could just stick on any unmodifed DVT.

 

[Wolfie]

It's probably because they're not perceived as old or worn out, at least by many enthusiasts. They may "only" be 1988 vintage with worn out 1960s tractioncompared to the similar HST vehicles of the 70s or Pacers of 1985, but being a 3rd rail intercity EMU means there's only a few routes which may be suitable for them. Being non-standard compared to most modern EMUs now also doesn't help, hence we have all sorts of schemes being proposed to re-use the carriages elsewhere. The whole D train story seems to have fuelled this fire somewhat, although they are at the end of the day an intercity design train and we've already got plenty of those!

my bold

Fixed that for you...