Why not upgrade the WCML instead of HS2?

[Chris125]

This is the thing I don't get their building this new line starting from scratch they could do whatever they wanted why don't they just spend a bit of extra money and design it to be 250mph like places like France etc? It seems so much more worth it to make it 250mph?

There seems to be a lot of misinformation on this thread - HS2 is being built on the basis of trains operating at up to 225mph, but where possible provision has been made for 250mph should that prove viable in the future.

 

[TheWalrus]

Presumably that would only be achievable if there were no other trains on the fast tracks.

I'm not sure how he planned it but I'd imagine it was linespeed increases for all services south of Rugby, except LM and maybe ERTMS?

 

[Altfish]

Yeah I understand that however why not operate at 250mph from day one?

If Manchester to London is to be just over an hour, allowing for slowing down in tunnels and on approaches to stations they will have to be at or about 250mph to achieve the timings.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I've always wondered why instead of building hs2, why don't they just upgrade the wcml dramatically? Surely it would save money, save building a new line and destroying the landscape and also the wcml is a really good route reaching most of the major city's on the west side (crewe, Stoke, manchester, Stockport, Liverpool, birmgham etc)

Josh I worked for the a Rail Passengers Council, Passenger Focus's forerunner in the early 2000's at the time we last upgraded the WCML guess what the majority of complaints for years on end were? Disruption and line closures caused by the works. In the 1960's traffic could be diverted onto other main lines whilst the electrification of the WCML took place we then closed down these alternative routes! HS2 is a consequence of Beeching.

 

[The Snap]

Josh I worked for the a Rail Passengers Council, Passenger Focus's forerunner in the early 2000's at the time we last upgraded the WCML guess what the majority of complaints for years on end were? Disruption and line closures caused by the works. In the 1960's traffic could be diverted onto other main lines whilst the electrification of the WCML took place we then closed down these alternative routes! HS2 is a consequence of Beeching.

What a can of worms that is!!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I've always wondered why instead of building hs2, why don't they just upgrade the wcml dramatically? Surely it would save money, save building a new line and destroying the landscape and also the wcml is a really good route reaching most of the major city's on the west side (crewe, Stoke, manchester, Stockport, Liverpool, birmgham etc)

After spending £8 billion on the last WCML upgrade for meagre returns and massive disruption, the DfT said "never again" would a classic main line be upgraded in situ.
HS1 showed the way (once the objectors were squared).

You could argue that the loss of a Rugby-Leicester (Midland) route in the 60s ruined an "HS2-lite" solution towards the East Midlands, but they chose to build the M1 over it instead.
In the 1840s, the WCML provided all services to the North (NW, West/East Midlands, Yorks, NE, and eventually Scotland) via Rugby.

 

[Blamethrower]

After spending £8 billion on the last WCML upgrade for meagre returns and massive disruption, the DfT said "never again" would a classic main line be upgraded in situ.
HS1 showed the way (once the objectors were squared).

You could argue that the loss of a Rugby-Leicester (Midland) route in the 60s ruined an "HS2-lite" solution towards the East Midlands, but they chose to build the M1 over it instead.
In the 1840s, the WCML provided all services to the North (NW, West/East Midlands, Yorks, NE, and eventually Scotland) via Rugby.

Not essentially true, the bridge abutments actually remain. For me that is the one diversionary route that should've stayed

 

[Gareth Marston]

What a can of worms that is!!

GWR Paddington to Birkenhead, severed in the middle and sections of it left for "local traffic" and track singled in places. Birmingham Snow Hill was largest station to ever close.

MR St Pancras to Manchester Central, severed in middle between Matlock and Buxton and Manchester Central another big station closure with lines around South Manchester and Stockport lost. Also lost most direct route from E Midlands to Noryh West.

MR St Pancras to Leeds, Glasgow/Edinburgh. Use to carry a lot of traffic south of Leeds. Not used as Anglo Scottish route anymore, Borders line ripped up.

GCR Mainline Marylebone Leicester/Nottingham/Sheffield/Manchester, all closed apart from some commute lines at either end.

All destinations for HS2 use to have two main lines and you wonder why it's needed for capacity reasons when you see what was closed!

 

[The Snap]

GWR Paddington to Birkenhead, severed in the middle and sections of it left for "local traffic" and track singled in places. Birmingham Snow Hill was largest station to ever close.

MR St Pancras to Manchester Central, severed in middle between Matlock and Buxton and Manchester Central another big station closure with lines around South Manchester and Stockport lost. Also lost most direct route from E Midlands to Noryh West.

MR St Pancras to Leeds, Glasgow/Edinburgh. Use to carry a lot of traffic south of Leeds. Not used as Anglo Scottish route anymore, Borders line ripped up.

GCR Mainline Marylebone Leicester/Nottingham/Sheffield/Manchester, all closed apart from some commute lines at either end.

All destinations for HS2 use to have two main lines and you wonder why it's needed for capacity reasons when you see what was closed!

Fair points.

It would be very interesting to see if HS2 would still have been proposed if these trunk routes would have remained. But alas, we’ll never know!

I think in the long term, even if they had remained, their geographical routes and aging infrastructure would have probably still necessitated a new high-speed line, given the logistical and cost issues associated with significantly upgrading operational infrastructure to operate at much higher speeds.

 

[The Planner]

You could argue that the loss of a Rugby-Leicester (Midland) route in the 60s ruined an "HS2-lite" solution towards the East Midlands, but they chose to build the M1 over it instead.

The M1 was built alongside it, not over it, the bridge over the M1 is still there at Whetstone.

 

[Snapper]

Latest blog on Joe Rukin & Stophs2's lies about rail cuts, complete with the slides Prof McNaughton showed to the Hs2 Committee: https://paulbigland.wordpress.com/2015/02/19/more-on-the-rukin-rumpus-with-added-slides/

 

[Bald Rick]

Only apart of it was done and the bottlenecks not sorted.

Apart from the bottlenecks at Euston, Willesden, MK, Rugby, Tamworth - Lichfield, Lichfield - Armitage, Proof House Jn, Manchester Piccadilly platforms and the Wigan area.

But apart from that you're right.

 

[Philip Elliott]

The M1 was built alongside it, not over it, the bridge over the M1 is still there at Whetstone.

That's the GCR...

The Midland Counties line crossed the M1 further south. There was never a bridge as it was shut before the M1 reached there.