Why not upgrade the WCML instead of HS2?

[Joshrowlands]

I've always wondered why instead of building hs2, why don't they just upgrade the wcml dramatically? Surely it would save money, save building a new line and destroying the landscape and also the wcml is a really good route reaching most of the major city's on the west side (crewe, Stoke, manchester, Stockport, Liverpool, birmgham etc)

 

[edwin_m]

This has been discussed dozens of times here and elsewhere.

The WCML basically needs two extra tracks at least as far north as NW England. Building these alongside the existing route would be hugely disruptive to the operation of the railway over many years and to the people living alongside it who would lose strips of gardens or even houses. The result would be no faster than the existing journey because it would have all the same fairly slow curves as the WCML has today.

It is far easier and actually cheaper to build the two new tracks on a new route that avoids most of the built-up areas, and at very little extra cost they can be built to run at much higher speeds.

 

[Joshrowlands]

This has been discussed dozens of times here and elsewhere.

The WCML basically needs two extra tracks at least as far north as NW England. Building these alongside the existing route would be hugely disruptive to the operation of the railway over many years and to the people living alongside it who would lose strips of gardens or even houses. The result would be no faster than the existing journey because it would have all the same fairly slow curves as the WCML has today.

It is far easier and actually cheaper to build the two new tracks on a new route that avoids most of the built-up areas, and at very little extra cost they can be built to run at much higher speeds.

The operating speed for hs2 isn't much more than the maximum 125mph on the wcml though is it?

 

[fowler9]

I've always wondered why instead of building hs2, why don't they just upgrade the wcml dramatically? Surely it would save money, save building a new line and destroying the landscape and also the wcml is a really good route reaching most of the major city's on the west side (crewe, Stoke, manchester, Stockport, Liverpool, birmgham etc)

I believe it is because building the new line is cheaper than upgrading the WCML which in some parts just does not have the space to be widened. My personal solution would be to get business to use the provinces more than just funneling everything to London, however, this is not without its own problems and businesses do not seem to want to do it so things are how they are.

 

[43074]

The operating speed for hs2 isn't much more than the maximum 125mph on the wcml though is it?

200mph design speed, 185mph operational speed.

We 'dramatically' rebuilt the WCML 6 years ago, now look where we are... in need of a new line.

 

[Joshrowlands]

200mph design speed, 185mph operational speed.

We 'dramatically' rebuilt the WCML 6 years ago, now look where we are... in need of a new line.

This is the thing I don't get their building this new line starting from scratch they could do whatever they wanted why don't they just spend a bit of extra money and design it to be 250mph like places like France etc? It seems so much more worth it to make it 250mph?

 

[TheJRB]

It's also important to remember that with HS2 in place, the towns and cities only on the WCML will benefit from a better service using capacity freed by running the longer distance expresses via HS2.

Although it's much more local traffic, I point to HS1 vs Ashford to Tonbridge. Of course the Eurostar could have run via Tonbridge at the expense of other traffic and at speeds of up to 100 MPH up to Tonbridge but thanks to HS1, the small stations between Ashford and Tonbridge now have two train an hour to London and Tunbridge Wells which isn't even on HS1 benefits from it by the two extra hourly paths that were gained which now give it four trains per hour!

 

[LWB]

200mph design speed, 185mph operational speed.

We 'dramatically' rebuilt the WCML 6 years ago, now look where we are... in need of a new line.

Plus, the WCML, however well it is upgraded, would always have to intermingle long distance Intercity traffic with freight and local services. How much better to leave the WCML to those flows and have truly segregated HS services.

 

[HSTEd]

The operating speed for hs2 isn't much more than the maximum 125mph on the wcml though is it?

360km/h is supposedly available for operation on the alignment but the trains will run at 320km/h most of the time (that is 200mph).
Anyone who has tried commercial operations at 360km/h has abandoned them in short order - it appears 320-340km/h is the limit at the moment.

 

[Hadders]

HS2 is about capacity as much as speed.

The southern parts of the WCML and ECML are basically full. If you build a new line then the fast Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Glasgow, Newcastle and Edinburgh services will be routed over the new line.

This frees up capacity on the WCML and ECML to run additional services to places such as Milton Keynes, Northampton, Nuneaton, Peterborough, Cambridge, Grantham, Lincoln etc.

We should just get on and build HS2 in my opinion. Remember many of the people objecting to HS2 have previous form. They are the same people who objected to the M40 being built in the early 1990's.

 

[Joshrowlands]

HS2 is about capacity as much as speed.

The southern parts of the WCML and ECML are basically full. If you build a new line then the fast Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Glasgow, Newcastle and Edinburgh services will be routed over the new line.

This frees up capacity on the WCML and ECML to run additional services to places such as Milton Keynes, Northampton, Nuneaton, Peterborough, Cambridge, Grantham, Lincoln etc.

We should just get on and build HS2 in my opinion. Remember many of the people objecting to HS2 have previous form. They are the same people who objected to the M40 being built in the early 1990's.

Will hs2 have short distance trains ie stopping at smaller stations like northern rail services do? Or will it be all long distance trains to the major cities because doesn't a train stopping at all stations slow down the train and therefore any train behind it?

I always have this vision of a hs2 train not stopping at small stations and just speeding through to the major cities? Or am I completley wrong lol?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

360km/h is supposedly available for operation on the alignment but the trains will run at 320km/h most of the time (that is 200mph).
Anyone who has tried commercial operations at 360km/h has abandoned them in short order - it appears 320-340km/h is the limit at the moment.

So trains will run at 200mph most of the time? so why do people say they will only be going 150/180mph etc I'm hearing different things from everyone lol

 

[fowler9]

Will hs2 have short distance trains ie stopping at smaller stations like northern rail services do? Or will it be all long distance trains to the major cities because doesn't a train stopping at all stations slow down the train and therefore any train behind it?

I always have this vision of a hs2 train not stopping at small stations and just speeding through to the major cities? Or am I completley wrong lol?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So trains will run at 200mph most of the time? so why do people say they will only be going 150/180mph etc I'm hearing different things from everyone lol

It could be average speeds people are talking about. The maximum speed would be around 200, the average is lower due to having to stop. I would expect a dedicated high speed line to have naff all stops.

 

[Hadders]

Will hs2 have short distance trains ie stopping at smaller stations like northern rail services do? Or will it be all long distance trains to the major cities because doesn't a train stopping at all stations slow down the train and therefore any train behind it?

I always have this vision of a hs2 train not stopping at small stations and just speeding through to the major cities? Or am I completley wrong lol?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So trains will run at 200mph most of the time? so why do people say they will only be going 150/180mph etc I'm hearing different things from everyone lol

There'll be no 'stoppers' on HS2. The nearest stop to London is Birmingham!

It's the existing WCML and ECML where there'll then be more capacity for stopping services.

 

[NotATrainspott]

This is the thing I don't get their building this new line starting from scratch they could do whatever they wanted why don't they just spend a bit of extra money and design it to be 250mph like places like France etc? It seems so much more worth it to make it 250mph?

When HS2 Ltd ask their civil engineers to design the route, they ask them to design it for trains to eventually run at 400km/h (250mph). However, HS2 Ltd have planned that on day one, trains will be timetabled to run at 330km/h (200mph), but all trains will be capable of 360km/h (225mph) which they will only run at if there are delays and they need to make up time.

 

[Joshrowlands]

When HS2 Ltd ask their civil engineers to design the route, they ask them to design it for trains to eventually run at 400km/h (250mph). However, HS2 Ltd have planned that on day one, trains will be timetabled to run at 330km/h (200mph), but all trains will be capable of 360km/h (225mph) which they will only run at if there are delays and they need to make up time.

Yeah I understand that however why not operate at 250mph from day one?

 

[yorksrob]

It's also important to remember that with HS2 in place, the towns and cities only on the WCML will benefit from a better service using capacity freed by running the longer distance expresses via HS2.

Although it's much more local traffic, I point to HS1 vs Ashford to Tonbridge. Of course the Eurostar could have run via Tonbridge at the expense of other traffic and at speeds of up to 100 MPH up to Tonbridge but thanks to HS1, the small stations between Ashford and Tonbridge now have two train an hour to London and Tunbridge Wells which isn't even on HS1 benefits from it by the two extra hourly paths that were gained which now give it four trains per hour!

Eurostar, of course, did run via Tonbridge (and Maidstone East) for many years.

Useful though HS1 undoubtedly is, it does seem a shame that there isn't at least some sort of semi-fast service using the classic lines, particularly As Charing Cross is so handy for the West End.

Given that the route has been 12 car since the Kent electrification scheme in 1962, perhaps it could join with one of the Tunbridge Wells services at Tonbridge.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Yeah I understand that however why not operate at 250mph from day one?

There isn't any great need to do so immediately. The only services it would make an appreciable difference on would be London to Scotland and even then, it would only be a matter of 15 minutes or so of journey time saving. Initially ticking to 330 or 360km/h - by the way, still the fastest conventional high speed railway service speed in the world - makes it simpler to build and run without making it much worse.

 

[TheJRB]

Eurostar, of course, did run via Tonbridge (and Maidstone East) for many years.

Useful though HS1 undoubtedly is, it does seem a shame that there isn't at least some sort of semi-fast service using the classic lines, particularly As Charing Cross is so handy for the West End.

Given that the route has been 12 car since the Kent electrification scheme in 1962, perhaps it could join with one of the Tunbridge Wells services at Tonbridge.

I agree with you however I do see that it's unlikely that a semi-fast service will be reinstated anytime soon sadly. There seems to be a move away from attachments and detachments on Southeastern on top of that too.

All I was really pointing to was the fact that HS1 has benefited more places than it seems on the face of it. East Kent has faster direct services via HS1, Ashford to Tonbridge smaller stations have gained a train an hour in some cases, Tunbridge Wells has gained two trains per hour to London all alongside the main fact that Eurostar can get from the tunnel to St Pancras in 35 minutes. Now if all of that can be had with a new only 60 mile long route, imagine what benefits HS2 will bring to a wider set of places.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree with you however I do see that it's unlikely that a semi-fast service will be reinstated anytime soon sadly. There seems to be a move away from attachments and detachments on Southeastern on top of that too.

All I was really pointing to was the fact that HS1 has benefited more places than it seems on the face of it. East Kent has faster direct services via HS1, Ashford to Tonbridge smaller stations have gained a train an hour in some cases, Tunbridge Wells has gained two trains per hour to London all alongside the main fact that Eurostar can get from the tunnel to St Pancras in 35 minutes. Now if all of that can be had with a new only 60 mile long route, imagine what benefits HS2 will bring to a wider set of places.

Can't argue with that - and my family seem to be enamoured with the new route (my sister gets the Northern line north of Kings Cross so it is very handy).

Just a shame that West End and Waterloo travellers get a bit neglected from Kent.

 

[edwin_m]

Yeah I understand that however why not operate at 250mph from day one?

The operating speed on day one could be anything up to 400km/h (250mph) depending on things like the maximum speed of the trains available at the time (there is no 400km/h train design available today, although some test runs have been done at that sort of speed). Also the energy costs go up a lot as speed increases, so a balance needs to be struck between this and other factors such as faster trains attracting more passengers. The maximum speeds quoted on this thread are just assumptions that are used for the timetable and business case.

Building for 400km/h where possible keeps the options open and costs very little more than building for a slower speed. There are places where the speed has to be less than 330km/h because the line has to curve to avoid towns etc, and more than 400km/h would be possible on some of the straight bits.

 

[HSTEd]

Yeah I understand that however why not operate at 250mph from day one?

Even 225mph (360km/h approx) has been shown to be uneconomic - 400km/h would be a nightmare of maintenance charges and wear and tear for not much gain.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

This has been discussed dozens of times here and elsewhere.

The WCML basically needs two extra tracks at least as far north as NW England.

Agreed - Preston ideally

200mph design speed, 185mph operational speed.

We 'dramatically' rebuilt the WCML 6 years ago, now look where we are... in need of a new line.

Exactly

Plus, the WCML, however well it is upgraded, would always have to intermingle long distance Intercity traffic with freight and local services. How much better to leave the WCML to those flows and have truly segregated HS services.

Exactly

HS2 is about capacity as much as speed.

The southern parts of the WCML and ECML are basically full. If you build a new line then the fast Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Glasgow, Newcastle and Edinburgh services will be routed over the new line.

This frees up capacity on the WCML and ECML to run additional services to places such as Milton Keynes, Northampton, Nuneaton, Peterborough, Cambridge, Grantham, Lincoln etc.

We should just get on and build HS2 in my opinion. Remember many of the people objecting to HS2 have previous form. They are the same people who objected to the M40 being built in the early 1990's.

I totally agree

Even 225mph (360km/h approx) has been shown to be uneconomic - 400km/h would be a nightmare of maintenance charges and wear and tear for not much gain.

So very true

 

[The Snap]

Slightly off topic but here goes...

Obviously the southern terminus for HS2 will be Euston whereas HS1 originates at St Pancras. Will there be some form of chord to connect the two at relative high speed (or indeed to connect them at all) to facilitate through trains to and from northern England to the Continent?

Edit:

Answered my own question!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Speed_2#Connection_to_other_lines

Reading that, has the link proposal been canned? Seems a bit short-sigthed to me if so!

 

[Agent_c]

Slightly off topic but here goes...

Obviously the southern terminus for HS2 will be Euston whereas HS1 originates at St Pancras. Will there be some form of chord to connect the two at relative high speed (or indeed to connect them at all) to facilitate through trains to and from northern England to the Continent?

Edit:

Answered my own question!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Speed_2#Connection_to_other_lines

Reading that, has the link proposal been canned? Seems a bit short-sigthed to me if so!

Unless there's a radical change in the near future that makes Short Haul flying uneconomic, I just don't see the "regional Eurostars" happening. Takes way too long when compared with a trip to the airport.

 

[Rick1984]

on the point of connection between HS1 & HS2 I think with a bit of forward planning some sort of hub could have been built at Kings X St. Pancras, with future proofing for HS2 to terminate there.

What annoys me about HS2 is that instead of the original plan for one line linking most major cities; we now have many separate routes all going to London.

so instead of a high speed line connecting major cities and encouraging growth away from London and connections between them; we will have a line that encourages more people to London.

 

[quantinghome]

on the point of connection between HS1 & HS2 I think with a bit of forward planning some sort of hub could have been built at Kings X St. Pancras, with future proofing for HS2 to terminate there.

What annoys me about HS2 is that instead of the original plan for one line linking most major cities; we now have many separate routes all going to London.

so instead of a high speed line connecting major cities and encouraging growth away from London and connections between them; we will have a line that encourages more people to London.

Not sure about this. HS2 connects most major cities to each other. The only missing connection between cities is planned to be filled by HS3.

 

[AM9]

on the point of connection between HS1 & HS2 I think with a bit of forward planning some sort of hub could have been built at Kings X St. Pancras, with future proofing for HS2 to terminate there.

What annoys me about HS2 is that instead of the original plan for one line linking most major cities; we now have many separate routes all going to London.

so instead of a high speed line connecting major cities and encouraging growth away from London and connections between them; we will have a line that encourages more people to London.

That's not necessarily so. Look at the traffic on the long distance inter-city routes from London and the trains designed to get to provincial cities (e.g. Leeds, Manchester, Cardiff) in time for meetings etc., are very much in demand.

 

[TheWalrus]

I've always wondered why instead of building hs2, why don't they just upgrade the wcml dramatically? Surely it would save money, save building a new line and destroying the landscape and also the wcml is a really good route reaching most of the major city's on the west side (crewe, Stoke, manchester, Stockport, Liverpool, birmgham etc)

Makes sense what you are saying and I used to think that, but the point is there is barely any additional capacity on the WCML. HS2 will relieve the WCML of many o the fast services leaving more capacity for shorter-distance services

I believe Richard Branson was talking once about upgrading the line to Birmingham bringing the fastest journey times between London and Birmingham down to under an hour.

 

[AM9]

I believe Richard Branson was talking once about upgrading the line to Birmingham bringing the fastest journey times between London and Birmingham down to under an hour.

Presumably that would only be achievable if there were no other trains on the fast tracks.

 

[UrbanWorld]

200mph design speed, 185mph operational speed.

We 'dramatically' rebuilt the WCML 6 years ago, now look where we are... in need of a new line.

Only apart of it was done and the bottlenecks not sorted.