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Why not cross Bradford as a conciliatory prize ?

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zwk500

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My post #76 answers your second point (again).

Liverpool also has wonderful buses, easier geography and better roads.

WAO
I'm still confused by what you meant with post #117. Forget Liverpool, it's not a valid comparison.
Thre are 2 main questions here:
1) What travel demand exists in Bradford that is not currently well-served?
2) What could be done (rail or otherwise) to serve the answers to (1)?
 
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Neptune

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My post #76 answers your second point (again).

Liverpool also has wonderful buses, easier geography and better roads.

WAO
Which is what is confusing people. You say there is no real financial benefits to Bradford Crossrail but then compare any benefits to Merseyrail in the 1970’s and start talking about buses.
 

61653 HTAFC

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The Bradford Council leader Susan Hinchcliffe rightly says that Bradford is Britain's 7th largest city and deserves better transport. It certainly deserves better leaders as their past decisions have made such a Crossrail etc almost impossible.
I agree that Bradford deserves better transport (if only they'd kept the trolleybuses...) but the "Seventh largest city" argument is massively flawed and won't help Bradford's case when the decision-makers (HM Treasury) come along to check the local authority's sums.

You'll note that people from Huddersfield no longer bang the "Largest town in England" drum: Because it was (a) no longer true, (b) possibly never true depending on how you count, (c) based on the population of the Kirklees Council area, not Huddersfield itself (sound familiar? ;) ), and (d) a completely arbitrary statistic.

I'm not out to bash Bradford for the sake of it though- it's a city that despite the various problems it faces (some from within, some from without) is quite nice to visit. Even the football rivalry has faded through lack of competitive games. I just don't see what problem a cross-city link would solve that couldn't be solved much cheaper with some trolley-wires.
 

Ken H

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Bit of history
Between the wars the railways were heavily involved in buses. They invested in Tilling and BET group operations. They also were involved in Halifax, Todmorden and Huddersfield buses, (JOC's) because they realised that they could not serve every traffic flow economically by train, but could with connecting buses.
What went wrong was separating trains and buses, leading to British Rail and National Bus Company being entirely separate, but public owned, so no integration.
 

WAO

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Which is what is confusing people. You say there is no real financial benefits to Bradford Crossrail but then compare any benefits to Merseyrail in the 1970’s and start talking about buses.
I'm sure that there are very significant benefits from a Bradford Crossrail but these would be VERY heavily outweighed by the costs of implementing it at present. It's a balance, as in all things, not black and white. I'm sorry if I have not made that clear.

I see the communities of Airedale, Wharfedale and Calderdale (right into Lancashire) as rather left behind compared to sunny South, where I now live. Compare Kintbury, Hungerford and Bedwyn services (class 80x's) to those at Rochdale, Halifax, etc. Yorkshire is more than Leeds.

Others started talking about buses, worthy vehicles that they are, but they don't have the market "pull" of a competent train service, if available.

Apologies if that's still not clear.

WAO
 

WAO

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Bit of history
Between the wars the railways were heavily involved in buses. They invested in Tilling and BET group operations. They also were involved in Halifax, Todmorden and Huddersfield buses, (JOC's) because they realised that they could not serve every traffic flow economically by train, but could with connecting buses.
What went wrong was separating trains and buses, leading to British Rail and National Bus Company being entirely separate, but public owned, so no integration.
You remind me of travelling from Sheffield to Leeds on the SJOC No 67, in Sheffield colours. Another joint service (between undertakings) was the No 72 from Leeds to Bradford, alternating between Leeds green and Bradford blue!


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Could you at least explain what these are, even if they can't be quantified?
I clearly believe that a single central station would considerably enhance train services and promote usage as has been evidenced elsewhere. Otherwise it might be worth closing some cross city links and reverting to multiple termini.

You and some others do not and I respect that but disagree.

WAO
 
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Ken H

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You remind me of travelling from Sheffield to Leeds on the SJOC No 67, in Sheffield colours. Another joint service (between undertakings) was the No 72 from Leeds to Bradford, alternating between Leeds green and Bradford blue!


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


I clearly believe that a single central station would considerably enhance train services and promote usage as has been evidenced elsewhere. Otherwise it might be worth closing some cross city links and reverting to multiple termini.

You and some others do not and I respect that but disagree.

WAO
I think cross city links are worth it is they exist already or can be done easily. but with expensive new build like this, you have to have a good quantified benefit. Not sure thats proven TBH.
 

Andyh82

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Presumably to eliminate the dead end and reduce journey times by getting rid of the current Interchange time penalty
Like someone else said, the best way to reduce the time penalty and speed up Calder valley journeys would be to reopen the avoiding line, and have some services bypassing Bradford

But of course these journeys would have to be additional to any service that operates now as Bradford council would not stand for anything else (especially as it would be building work on their patch to enable their patch to be bypassed!) and then you’d get into issues with capacity on the Calder Valley route.
 

JKF

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Like someone else said, the best way to reduce the time penalty and speed up Calder valley journeys would be to reopen the avoiding line, and have some services bypassing Bradford
That‘s been built on at the western end now, someone in planning signed that off. I don’t know when that was closed, fairly sure there was still track down on it relatively recently.

But I can’t see trains bypassing the ‘seventh largest city’ to save a few minutes, that makes little sense. There are minutes that can be saved elsewhere, electrification might help with the slow climb out of Leeds for instance, albeit in one direction only!
 

Neptune

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Something else which doesn’t add up. If this is about Bradford passengers with the turnaround at BDI what does it matter? It’s the same time between Bradford and all destinations regardless (well it will actually take a minute or 2 longer as this fantasy super station will be further back).
 

WAO

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There's a Guardian report on line about Bradford's reaction to being out of NPR etc. There were a range of reactions including cynicism but one from someone trying to commute from Keighley to Manchester (not via Leeds) was telling.

If you are starting or finishing your journey in Bradford, which of two close stations you use doesn't matter to you, of course.

Perhaps we should concentrate on the good news of electrification of the GNR route. Not many places will have two 25kV termini!

Don't forget to Xmas shop at the Broadway or Forster Square!

WAO
 

matacaster

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I am surprised that none of the Leeds to doncaster electric locals don't go through to Forster sq and once line is electrified to York). Surely such a service could use a local Bradford to leeds path. This would improve direct journey opportunities for Bradfordians and reduce need for a train berthing at Leeds.
 

30907

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I am surprised that none of the Leeds to doncaster electric locals don't go through to Forster sq and once line is electrified to York). Surely such a service could use a local Bradford to leeds path. This would improve direct journey opportunities for Bradfordians and reduce need for a train berthing at Leeds.
No operational advantage (doesn't save a unit) and you'd have to disentangle the Leeds-Bradford stoppers from the rest of the NW service and cross the layout.
Interchange-Doncaster would be easier and might be worth considering once electrified.
 

tbtc

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re Keighley to Manchester...

Even if there is a Crossrail, the fastest service from Bradford Interchange to Manchester Victoria is 55 minutes (and that's only one train per hour - anything else takes over an hour)

Given that Keighley to Leeds only takes five minutes longer than Keighley to Bradford Forster Square, and that you can do Leeds to Manchester Victoria in 55 minutes or less four times per hour, the only way that I'd travel from Keighley to Manchester via Bradford would be if:

  • The Keighley service runs through to Manchester as a direct train, replacing the current "fast" service from Leeds through the Calder Valley to Manchester Victoria (i.e. Leeds loses a through service to Halifax/ Hebden Bridge/ Rochdale)

and/or

  • We spend another billion pounds on improving/ electrifying the Calder Valley route to try to shave another few minutes off that 55 minute time from Bradford to Manchester Victoria, on top of the money spent knocking down swathes of central Bradford
Both of those seem pretty unrealistic IMHO (would places in the Calder Valley be happy losing their fast Leeds train so that they can have a direct Keighley service instead?), so I'd stick to travelling via Leeds if I were ever to do the Keighley - Manchester journey (frequent service from Keighley to Leeds, frequent service from Leeds to Manchester, Leeds to Manchester journey times will get even faster in future once electricity reaches Marsden)

And even if there were a line from Skipton to Colne, it'd still be faster to do Keighley - Leeds - Manchester, before anyone gets their crayons out!

Something else which doesn’t add up. If this is about Bradford passengers with the turnaround at BDI what does it matter? It’s the same time between Bradford and all destinations regardless (well it will actually take a minute or 2 longer as this fantasy super station will be further back).

Nobody seems to be able to answer this simple question, do they?

Some bluster about "regional connections" but what new links will Bradford gain that it can't currently have (e.g. you could already run direct trains from Bradford to various places but we choose not to - Sheffield/ Carlisle etc)

I am surprised that none of the Leeds to doncaster electric locals don't go through to Forster sq and once line is electrified to York). Surely such a service could use a local Bradford to leeds path. This would improve direct journey opportunities for Bradfordians and reduce need for a train berthing at Leeds.

I suppose that the two issues there are that the EMUs through Kirkstall are fairly intensively diagrammed as they are (with lots of interworking), so the layovers aren't that significant (I'm not commenting on how long the Doncaster trains lay over at Leeds though) and that the Kirkstall services are pretty much operationally independent of other trains at Leeds - they are able to come into and out of the low numbered platforms at the northern side of the station - it's almost a separate station - the only time that services need to cross onto the "main" station is the occasional LNER service or Northern ECS to Neville Hill - running onto the Doncaster route would risk operational performance on the tightly pathed Kirkstall corridor rather than keeping things seperate

What would be a lot better (in my biased opinion!) would be if we had something like 769s that could work both of the stoppers on the Fitzwilliam corridor, so that a Dearne Valley stopper into Leeds could form the next Doncaster stopper out of Leeds (as well as allowing the Dearne Valley service to be sped up a little, a 100mph EMU vs a 75mph DMU)

Interchange-Doncaster would be easier and might be worth considering once electrified.

That's worth considering - since the Westgate and Interchange routes share a line into Leeds, you could look at interworking (just as long as you don't go crazy, like Arriva's planned Nottingham - Sheffield - Leeds - Bradford - Rochdale - Manchester Airport diagrams were going to be!)
 

WAO

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the only way that I'd travel from Keighley to Manchester via Bradford would be if:

  • The Keighley service runs through to Manchester as a direct train, replacing the current "fast" service from Leeds through the Calder Valley to Manchester Victoria (i.e. Leeds loses a through service to Halifax/ Hebden Bridge/ Rochdale)
I think that you have understood the Guardian's interviewee's preferences quite correctly. Doesn't mean they're cost effective today.

And demolishing new Bradford shopping centres isn't on the agenda.

WAO
 
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