Why no day returns on some routes?

[kuepper]

Tried to find day return Manchester-Middlesbrough but it's only showing offpeak/anytime returns or advance singles (but my return time is uncertain so I can't chance that). How come it's not obligatory to provide a day return, I don't want to pay for the extra flexibility returning within a month

 

[Hadders]

Day Returns are normally only available on shorter flows. The appropriate fare for your journey would be the Off Peak Return which, despite its name. is available to use on any train (restriction code 8A - valid on any train).

 

[northwichcat]

Yes. The limit for the availability of a day return from Manchester is around the York area. You could buy a Manchester to York Day Return and York to Middlesbrough Day Return if that works out cheaper than an Off-Peak Return between Manchester and Middlesbrough.

 

[sheff1]

Day Returns are normally only available on shorter flows.

Yes, but the question was "why ?".

Back in the day you could get Day Return tickets for pretty well any journey which could be done in a day - Birmingham to Dundee, for example.

I cannot recall when, or why, the longer distance day returns were withdrawn. Can anyone explain ?

 

[30907]

I would guess that it was with the introduction of Saver Tickets?

A quick glance at a 1981 Selective Pricing Manual confirms that the Day Return fare was 50p more than the Single, the Weekend and Monthly Return fares significantly more.

Saver fares were typically set just above the Ordinary Single, and there was no need for a separate DY fare.

Of course things are more complicated now.

 

[Merseysider]

You can however get a day return from Liverpool to Brighton (240 miles), from Preston to Edinburgh (180 miles) and a day travelcard from Penzance to London (280 miles).

IMO all journeys feasibly done in a day should have a day return available. Perhaps if you request that TPE add a day return in for MAN-MBR you'll get somewhere, but I wouldn't count on it.

 

[Hadders]

You can however get a day return from Liverpool to Brighton (240 miles), from Preston to Edinburgh (180 miles) and a day travelcard from Penzance to London (280 miles).

IMO all journeys feasibly done in a day should have a day return available. Perhaps if you request that TPE add a day return in for MAN-MBR you'll get somewhere, but I wouldn't count on it.

Be careful what you wish for as I suspect they would take the opportunity to remove the 8A restriction on the Off Peak Return at the same time.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I'm not seeing the day return from Liverpool to Brighton.

I am however surprised by the Day Travelcard from Penzance! (Looks like they decided they might as well chuck a Travelcard in with the day return fare!).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Even within the notional "Day Return" zone (50 miles is/was it?), you can still find Day Returns but no Period Returns, or Period Returns but no Day Returns.
I've never understood why this is, or which one is regulated.

 

[Merseysider]

I'm not seeing the day return from Liverpool to Brighton.

I am however surprised by the Day Travelcard from Penzance! (Looks like they decided they might as well chuck a Travelcard in with the day return fare!).

The Liverpool-Brighton CDR is routed Southern and London Midland only. Effectively useless M-F but good value on the weekend.

 

[yorkie]

Tried to find day return Manchester-Middlesbrough but it's only showing offpeak/anytime returns or advance singles (but my return time is uncertain so I can't chance that). How come it's not obligatory to provide a day return, I don't want to pay for the extra flexibility returning within a month

Many train companies appear to want you to pay a premium when making a longer journeys.

You can get around this by "splitting" (using a combination of cheaper fares). The trainsplit.com website makes a good attempt at figuring out the cheapest "split". A quick search for next Saturday finds a flexible fare combination that will save you about £12.

It will sell you all tickets in one transaction and will have a go at obtaining the same seat throughout (but this is not always achievable) and you will get one booking confirmation and itinerary for your entire journey.

If you need to make any changes, many train companies will charge you one £10 fee per ticket, but Trainsplit would charge £10 per transaction.

Or you can manually do your own splits using any website or by asking for the tickets you want at a booking office.

 

[kuepper]

thanks guys. Decided to go national express, same journey time (2 hr 20) for £12.40 inc booking compared to TPE £36.90 off peak return with my senior rail card. Megabus was even cheaper £9.50 inc booking but times were too tight! I have to make this journey often for a while so may get a buy a £10 Nat Express senior coach card to get a third off future travel so rail losing out, i'd willingly pay for a fair day return ticket but not a month's flexiblity i dont need.

 

[swt_passenger]

Even within the notional "Day Return" zone (50 miles is/was it?), you can still find Day Returns but no Period Returns, or Period Returns but no Day Returns.
I've never understood why this is, or which one is regulated.

Apparently in Network South East days they decided there'd be no period returns for flows less than about 40-50 miles, to avoid attempted re-use by commuters during their validity. (The exact distance varies between routes.) There were always some exceptions however, e.g. for certain flows such as airport services.

I don't think that distance worked the other way round as the limit of day returns though.

Often where both day and period returns exist for a flow the price is very similar anyway, the period return perhaps having more onerous time restrictions.

 

[yorkie]

Splitting at York does make the journey fairly reasonably priced, but I agree that the coach is cheaper.

Is the coach fare you mention a flexible fare, allowing you to get any coach? If it's only for specific coaches only, then TPE's Advance fares are worth considering next time.

Often where both day and period returns exist for a flow the price is very similar anyway, the period return perhaps having more onerous time restrictions.

More often the other way round, especially for XC priced flows where they are not permitted to introduce evening peak restrictions on Off Peak Returns, but have heavily restricted the Off Peak Day Returns.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Apparently in Network South East days they decided there'd be no period returns for flows less than about 40-50 miles, to avoid attempted re-use by commuters during their validity. (The exact distance varies between routes.) There were always some exceptions however, e.g. for certain flows such as airport services.

I don't think that distance worked the other way round as the limit of day returns though.
...

Within say the last ten years, period return tickets have made a come back on many flows in the ex-NSE area.

Back in NSE days there were two period tickets, the Network Awaybreak (up to 5 days) and the Network Stayaway - the latter only for longer distances IIRC. Someone else will have to give chapter and verse for them. I think they disappeared in the early years of privatisation.

 

[kuepper]

Splitting at York does make the journey fairly reasonably priced, but I agree that the coach is cheaper.

Is the coach fare you mention a flexible fare, allowing you to get any coach? If it's only for specific coaches only, then TPE's Advance fares are worth considering next time.

.

re splitting, there is no off peak day return Manchester-York, the cheapest is an off peak return £18.90. Adding an off peak day return York -Middlesbrough at £9.30 = £28.20. Still twice the price of coaches with no time benefit but does give flexibility as my coach fares are specific but the times are acceptable for my purpose.

 

[Starmill]

I've always thought it's very overpriced to have no CDR from York to Manchester when it's a 75 minute journey. It's odd that TransPennine force someone into a ticket valid for a month when I've made the journey there and back over an afternoon before just to go for an evening meal with friends in York...

 

[bb21]

Manchester - Leeds CDR is £19.90
Leeds - York CDR is £13.40

I doubt you'd get much change from £28.90 (current Manchester - York SVR) if a CDR is created.

CDR - Off-Peak Day Return
SVR - Off-Peak Return

 

[northwichcat]

I've always thought it's very overpriced to have no CDR from York to Manchester when it's a 75 minute journey. It's odd that TransPennine force someone into a ticket valid for a month when I've made the journey there and back over an afternoon before just to go for an evening meal with friends in York...

Be careful what you wish for. There is a SDR available and it costs more than a SVR so TPE could change the SVR to become a CDR and keep the price the same.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Be careful what you wish for. There is a SDR available and it costs more than a SVR so TPE could change the SVR to become a CDR and keep the price the same.

Not if the SVR is a regulated fare (which I think it will be).

 

[island]

One can get an off-peak day return from Cambridge to Exeter St. Davids route VIA HONITON, allowing at best a tad over four and a half hours in Exeter for a bit over eleven hours on trains.

 

[island]

This is not the best result. Newmarket to Polsloe Bridge also has a CDR with precisely one set of outbound and return trains that can be used, with a travel time of thirteen hours and nine minutes, and 51 minutes at the destination.

 

[Hadders]

Although Long Buckby to Polsloe Bridge, while not the furthest distance costs a princely £118.50. Is this the most expensive 'Cheap Day Return'?

 

[yorkie]

Manchester - Leeds CDR is £19.90
Leeds - York CDR is £13.40

I doubt you'd get much change from £28.90 (current Manchester - York SVR) if a CDR is created.

CDR - Off-Peak Day Return
SVR - Off-Peak Return

The CDR used to be approx 80% of the price of the SVR, until TPE abolished it, which would put it at around £23 in current prices.

There are, of course, cheaper ways to do Manchester to York!

Be careful what you wish for. There is a SDR available and it costs more than a SVR so TPE could change the SVR to become a CDR and keep the price the same.

TPE have already done all sorts of underhand changes to York - Manchester (and similar) fares, but they can't withdraw the SVR. They can't even impose evening peak restrictions on it. However if fares regulation didn't exist, you can guarantee they'd be up to even more tricks to make people pay more.

Most ludicrously priced TPE fares can be legitimately circumvented, of course.

Fans of Red Dwarf will appreciate this quote:

I know this game, it's called cat and mouse. And there's only one way to win, don't be the mouse

 

[greatkingrat]

Although Long Buckby to Polsloe Bridge, while not the furthest distance costs a princely £118.50. Is this the most expensive 'Cheap Day Return'?

Almost, for some reason a CDR from Polsloe Bridge to Long Buckby is £124.80!

 

[northwichcat]

Not if the SVR is a regulated fare (which I think it will be).

TPE have already done all sorts of underhand changes to York - Manchester (and similar) fares, but they can't withdraw the SVR. They can't even impose evening peak restrictions on it. However if fares regulation didn't exist, you can guarantee they'd be up to even more tricks to make people pay more.

I'm not sure how exactly the SVR fare for Manchester to York has changed in the past 10 years but I do know the Knutsford to Huddersfield one was around £11.50 ten years ago and is now £17.60, so it's increased at a much faster rate than using the RPI+1% formula. They've also added an 'only valid at 07:45 or later' restriction which is great when a service from KNF departs at 07:44 and using the following service requires 2 changes opposed to 1!

 

[Joe Paxton]

TPE have already done all sorts of underhand changes to York - Manchester (and similar) fares, but they can't withdraw the SVR. ...

Out of curiosity, what kinds of things have they got up to? (Apart from withdrawing the CDR.)

 

[northwichcat]

Out of curiosity, what kinds of things have they got up to? (Apart from withdrawing the CDR.)

They've added restriction codes like I7 to SVRs, which means passengers travelling early have to buy a more expensive ticket type.

They also did the trick that many operators did and increased the most popular regulated fares by a lot more than RPI plus 1% but decreased the least popular regulated fares so that their average increase met the RPI plus 1% requirement.

 

[Joe Paxton]

They've added restriction codes like I7 to SVRs, which means passengers travelling early have to buy a more expensive ticket type.

They also did the trick that many operators did and increased the most popular regulated fares by a lot more than RPI plus 1% but decreased the least popular regulated fares so that their average increase met the RPI plus 1% requirement.

The first thing - reducing the time window in which regulated fares can be used, sometimes to the bare minimum as required under the franchise agreement - is what TOCs have been doing since privatisation, has it not? Not saying that's a good thing of course.

The second issue, re the regulated fares basket - does this calculation just consist of the totality of all the regulated fares a TOC offers, or does it take account of the number of tickets actually sold for the various flows?

 

[John @ home]

It excludes those flows which have lowest income, excluding in total those which amount to 5% of regulated revenue. The top 95% are included.