Why Join a Union?

[whhistle]

The RMT, for example state that the benefits include:

• Better pay
  
• Improved conditions
  
• Workplace representation
  
• Health and safety protection
  
• Full range of membership benefits
  
• Legal cover - workplace and criminal for you and your family
  
• Credit Union
  
• Full-colour monthly magazine - RMT News

However, I'd argue that most of those can be found elsewhere.
For example "better pay" - really? If you were not a member of the union, you'd get the same anyway.

A "colour magazine" - wow! Full colour!

I'd also argue with the "improved conditions" - there's no on-going improvement in conditions for many.

What it doesn't disclose is the "full range of member benefits" - well that are they?! The insurances? Yeah, most of those are available with packaged bank accounts.

What people seem to trumpet about is that "they'll get you off", which concerns me. If someone has done something wrong, enough to get the sack, then I wouldn't want anyone "getting them off" - they've done something unsafe!

Don't want to cause argument, just wondering why people join; especially when there's no clear price. I understand if nobody joins then the pay rises may be smaller, or non-existent but for a new entry person, is the union just an out-dated concept?

 

[170401]

What people seem to trumpet about is that "they'll get you off", which concerns me. If someone has done something wrong, enough to get the sack, then I wouldn't want anyone "getting them off" - they've done something unsafe!

You've obviously never had false allegations made against you or had a member of the public or management with a personal grievance against you.

Nothing is ever that black and white and having previously had false allegations made against me and an opposition with an agenda along with the same naïve outlook you do, I can absolutely tell you if I hadn't had representation from my union I would certainly have faced the offer of resignation or dismissal.

having learnt the life lessons I did I will never be without union representation ever again.

 

[Spankthemonkey]

If u slip up at work and have an incident, you stand a far better chance of keeping your job with the union fighting your corner. Far better chance.

Sometimes i feel the union blusters and overdoes the rhetoric to justify it's existance, but even if u disagree with everything else it does, join for the free legal advice and backing in disciplinaries.

 

[jopsuk]

as you say, without the union pay rises would be more or less non-existant, working conditions would be rapidly eroded etc. Why should a new entrant join? To ensure continuity. To ensure that the protection of pay and conditions doesn't stop. Because the whole power of the union is solidarity, about everyone working together rather than fighting each other for scraps

 

[Mag_seven]

I've been a member of a union for all my working life and while I may disagree with some of the political stuff they are very useful if you need support with a grievance or indeed need support if you feel you have been constructively or unfairly dismissed.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

I've always been a part of Unison and that's with my current employer and my previous employer.

Unison's price banding is based on what you earn. For every new member of staff that we get through the doors we encourage them to sign up as soon as possible.

Nowadays joining a union folk think that it automatically puts you on a bad footing with the company and could lead no non progression and it shouldn't be that way at all.

 

[DarloRich]

The RMT, for example state that the benefits include:

• Better pay
  
• Improved conditions
  
• Workplace representation
  
• Health and safety protection
  
• Full range of membership benefits
  
• Legal cover - workplace and criminal for you and your family
  
• Credit Union
  
• Full-colour monthly magazine - RMT News

However, I'd argue that most of those can be found elsewhere.
For example "better pay" - really? If you were not a member of the union, you'd get the same anyway.

A "colour magazine" - wow! Full colour!

I'd also argue with the "improved conditions" - there's no on-going improvement in conditions for many.

What it doesn't disclose is the "full range of member benefits" - well that are they?! The insurances? Yeah, most of those are available with packaged bank accounts.

What people seem to trumpet about is that "they'll get you off", which concerns me. If someone has done something wrong, enough to get the sack, then I wouldn't want anyone "getting them off" - they've done something unsafe!

Don't want to cause argument, just wondering why people join; especially when there's no clear price. I understand if nobody joins then the pay rises may be smaller, or non-existent but for a new entry person, is the union just an out-dated concept?

It isn't that "they will get you off" rather you will get a massive pita like me in your corner making sure you don't get screwed. What they will do is make sure the company are held to agreed procedures and principles and that you are dealt with fairly. That pita will be someone who knows the company rules inside out (almost always better than managers and HR) has built up good relations with managers and HR, can negotiate on your brhalf and will be honest with you. If you have done something wrong they will try to mitigate the damage but that in itself wont "get you off".

You also will never see the work that is done in the background around re organisations and redundancies. Much time and effort is spent in mitigating those impacts in negotiation and bargaining and then in supporting those put at risk.

I would also suggest that, having had to pay for my own lawyers in an very nasty employment matter in a previous life, free or reduced price legal cover alone is worth the monthly premium. The TU lawyers and barristers tend to be experts in their field and cost a pretty penny on your own account! Personally, I see the subs as an insurance. Hopefully you never need it.

I've been a member of a union for all my working life and while I may disagree with some of the political stuff they are very useful if you need support with a grievance or indeed need support if you feel you have been constructively or unfairly dismissed.

couldn't agree more.

I've always been a part of Unison and that's with my current employer and my previous employer.

Unison's price banding is based on what you earn. For every new member of staff that we get through the doors we encourage them to sign up as soon as possible.

Same for mine. Clear banding based on earnings.

Nowadays joining a union folk think that it automatically puts you on a bad footing with the company and could lead no non progression and it shouldn't be that way at all.

it is a cultural thing. Down here in the south there are many young people ( perhaps like the OP) who have been spoon fed anti union media for years. They think there is no point being a member or don't see the benefit. Wait till they or someone they know is in trouble. Their view changes asap

( At home in the North East there is a much longer tradition of union membership and a much easier "sell")

 

[Michael.Y]

• Better pay -- also available to non-union members
  
• Improved conditions -- see above. Also my role will cease to exist soon, despite numerous strikes, so.....
  
• Workplace representation -- there will always be a union rep in your depot / workplace, regardless of union. If there isn't, it's you sunshine.
  
• Health and safety protection -- that's law.
  
• Full range of membership benefits -- a diary, a badge and £18 less in your paypacket per month.
  
• Legal cover - workplace and criminal for you and your family -- are RMT members and their families usually criminals?
  
• Credit Union -- there's these funny things called banks nowadays...
  
• Full-colour monthly magazine - RMT News -- don't have a rabbit to **** on it so it goes straight in the recycling every week.

 

[DarloRich]

[*]Workplace representation -- there will always be a union rep in your depot / workplace, regardless of union. If there isn't, it's you sunshine.

ring your union and tell them to send a rep from another depot/facility. Mine does that.

[*]Health and safety protection -- that's law.

Agreed - but getting employers to live up to their responsibilities is difficult. A call to the union HSEA rep tends to get those issues fixed quicker.

[*]Legal cover - workplace and criminal for you and your family -- are RMT members and their families usually criminals?

mine doesn't offer criminal legal cover so that seems an advantage. Hopefully you never need it but you never know.

[*]Credit Union -- there's these funny things called banks nowadays...

not everyone has access to banking but the key attraction for a Credit Union is the borrowing of money, especially for people on low incomes, at decent rates. Much better than Wonga. Trust me. I have been there.

[*]Full-colour monthly magazine - RMT News -- don't have a rabbit to **** on it so it goes straight in the recycling every week.[/list]

We get email newsletters as the magazine was a waste of resources.

 

[Monty]

Collective bargaining. People forget while non union members also get any increased pay, that has to be negotiated by union representatives. For that to take place a certain % of staff have to be in the union for the company to recognise them to bargain for things like pay rises and better working conditions. If everyone had the attitude of "well I get all that anyway so I don't have to be a member" nobody would join and this the union would not have the power to negotiate for those increased wages.

 

[OliverS]

As someone who has sat on the management side of a grievance procedure I would say that a union rep sitting at your side is a great benefit. Don't underestimate how helpful it is to have someone who is sufficiently distant from the reasons for the grievance yet well enough versed in the procedures to get a fair outcome.

Having such a person is a help to the managers as well as it does keep everything on track and focused. Not all managers would necessarily agree with me there...

 

[InOban]

So long as most people are in the union, the rest can freeload as far as terms and conditions are concerned. They won't be popular, particularly when they work normally during a dispute.

But if an industry is non-unionised, heaven help you. That's the land of low wages, zero-hour contracts, and general casualisation of the workforce. Compare the T&C's of railway staff with those of other parts of the transport industry - truck/van/taxi drivers for example.

A leading economist pointed out that the only industries still paying living wages were those still largely unionised, and that if the government seriously wanted to address the issue of our low wage economy, they should encourage trade union membership.

 

[ComUtoR]

[*]Health and safety protection

A problem in employment is that your employer may not be following Health and Safety regs and even directly contravening them. In a different employment we were breaking the working time regulations and my company were very much bullying staff. Having a Union adds a layer of protection to ensure regulations are being followed.

[*]Legal cover - workplace and criminal for you and your family

Free mortgage advise, divorce advise, will service, and yes Legal cover. Chris McGee, Martin Zee....

[*]Full-colour monthly magazine - RMT News

It's an industry magazine aimed at its members. It keeps its members informed. How many people here buy or sub to industry/enthusiast magazines ?

[*]Better pay

However, I'd argue that most of those can be found elsewhere.
For example "better pay" - really? If you were not a member of the union, you'd get the same anyway.

No you wouldn't, at least not specifically. As already stated, you have 'collective bargaining' In that case, and in ours, we all get the same wage regardless of union membership.

It is the strength of that Union that can, and often does, being better pay. Only one of my friends is in unionised employment and only I have had a pay rise every single year. It is very much reported on this forum about our wages. They are high and considered overpaid. That has come about by strong union memberships and union negotiated wage rises. In non unionised employment you get lower and often artificially depressed wages. This is because the power lies with the employer. I would certainly be interested in comparing salaries in unionised and non unionised employment.

I'd also argue with the "improved conditions" - there's no on-going improvement in conditions for many.

Conversely I'd argue that the union does fight for improved conditions. Again, in unionised employment you tend to get better conditions, at least for the masses.

Don't want to cause argument, just wondering why people join; especially when there's no clear price. I understand if nobody joins then the pay rises may be smaller, or non-existent but for a new entry person, is the union just an out-dated concept?

Isn't that itself a good reason to join a Union ?

 

[adrock1976]

For all the things that are taken for granted nowadays such as paid annual leave, safe working practices, mandatory breaks, minimum of 11 hours between shifts, maximum 48 hours worked in a period of 7 days (unless an employee signs a waiver form), etc, have a think who brought about those benefits.

It was certainly not Westminster MPs or even the unelected European Commissioners who woke up one morning and decided "How do we improve working conditions?".

It was brought about through active campaigning by the rank and file members of the trade union movement to have safe working practices, annual paid leave, mandatory breaks, etc.

This is what we should all be grateful for - and moreso to ensure that there is no attacks on workers rights when the UK has finally left the European Union (if it ever does).

 

[MrPIC]

I can't believe the naivety and selfish attitudes of some people. It always astonishes me.

 

[AlterEgo]

I've been a member of a union for all my working life and while I may disagree with some of the political stuff they are very useful if you need support with a grievance or indeed need support if you feel you have been constructively or unfairly dismissed.

This.

If anyone ever doubted the value of union membership, have a look at the Martin Zee case. The RMT sourced a first class expert witness and provided a good lawyer, in contrast to the rubbish the CPS turned up with. Zee was (rightly) found not guilty, an outcome which was far from guaranteed. They literally saved him from prison.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Don't want to cause argument, just wondering why people join; especially when there's no clear price. I understand if nobody joins then the pay rises may be smaller, or non-existent but for a new entry person, is the union just an out-dated concept?

Isn't that itself a good reason to join a Union ?

Case in point: Where I work, this year's pay deal for staff covered by collective bargaining matched RPI for the relevant month, whereas those outside collective bargaining (essentially Management grades) got just 1%.

If the rail industry didn't have strong Unions, you can bet your life that an increase anywhere even remotely near RPI wouldn't have been on the table.

Similarly, it's thanks to the unions that traincrew have seen base salaries more than double since privatisation as part of restructuring deals, though many of the former (non-pensionable) allowances were rolled into the base salary as part of that process.

 

[dk1]

Need ASLEF when you are in trouble for sure. Best £30 I spend each month.

 

[daikilo]

When I joined BR I had to join a union and chose the TSSA. After a couple of years and 1 strike I started attending meetings and workshops.

What I learnt helped me with the other almost 40 years of my working life in another company where we had 3 strikes respectively lasting 15 minutes and 2x 1 hour. We showed we were united behind the cause, and management didn't want to be on TV.

And if you talk to colleagues who have never considered being a practicing union member you will find many have no idea exactly which laws and rules cover working practices, and even more the processes for disciplinary procedures or forced job changes.

 

[Agent_c]

Better pay -- also available to non-union members

Which basically means freeloading off the existence of the union. The union's hand is stronger if more are in it

Improved conditions -- see above. Also my role will cease to exist soon, despite numerous strikes, so.....

Again, which involves freeloading off the existence of the union. Not all battles can be one.

Legal cover - workplace and criminal for you and your family -- are RMT members and their families usually criminals?

Its not if you're a criminal, but if some hot shot prosecutor thinks you being on shift when someone died due to their own stupidity is criminal negligence....

Credit Union -- there's these funny things called banks nowadays...

Whom almost always offer a worse deal than a Credit Union....

 

[the sniper]

I always find it bizarre to see someone not in the union on the railway (I only see it on this forum, tbh) that can argue 'you get the pay rise without joining the union'. How can someone not see if everyone on the railway took that attitude there'd be no union, no collective bargaining and the kind of insignificant or non existent pay rises seen in most other industries?! It's incomprehensible. I wouldn't have the gall to take the widespread yearly 2%+ pay increases year after year and then have the nerve to argue the cause for not joining the union, particularly if they're pushing the cost angle.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

As someone who has sat on the management side of a grievance procedure I would say that a union rep sitting at your side is a great benefit. Don't underestimate how helpful it is to have someone who is sufficiently distant from the reasons for the grievance yet well enough versed in the procedures to get a fair outcome.

Having such a person is a help to the managers as well as it does keep everything on track and focused. Not all managers would necessarily agree with me there...

Having been on both sides of the disciplinary process at some point or other I totally agree with this. High profile union leaders like to be visible in the media and so make all sorts of carefully worded statements which are loaded to generate media interest. But at the level of the individual workplace you will find a lot a very good reps, normally trained at the union's expense, who are able to apply an awful lot of common sense when an issue is being dealt with. Indeed a key part of the process is often the quiet consultation that takes place between manager and rep during an adjournment in the formal proceedings when there is nothing to be gained by posturing allowing a sensible conclusion to be reached. The idea that reps exist solely for getting miscreants "off" is a fantasy these days.

 

[Bromley boy]

I always find it bizarre to see someone not in the union on the railway (I only see it on this forum, tbh) that can argue 'you get the pay rise without joining the union'. How can someone not see if everyone on the railway took that attitude there'd be no union, no collective bargaining and the kind of insignificant or non existent pay rises seen in most other industries?! It's incomprehensible. I wouldn't have the gall to take the widespread yearly 2%+ pay increases year after year and then have the nerve to argue the cause for not joining the union, particularly if they're pushing the cost angle.

Yep I 100% agree.

I can see why people don't bother joining a union in other industries where employers don't recognise them - perhaps this is where the OP is coming from.

The heavily unionised nature of the railway is one of the key benefits of railway jobs. The union is about a lot more than just pay they also negotiate rosters and check that new rosters comply with what has been agreed. God only knows what the rosters and other aspects of the job would be like without the the union's involvement.

I would also feel a bit of a fraud benefiting from the pay rises without belonging to the union myself (although there is sometimes disagreement over which union is best). At the end of the day you have a choice to get as involved in the political stuff as much or as little as you like.

Of course the ever present risk of a PTI incident and legal cover provided by the union also make union membership a no brainier for me, even ignoring the other benefits.

 

[Bromley boy]

What people seem to trumpet about is that "they'll get you off", which concerns me. If someone has done something wrong, enough to get the sack, then I wouldn't want anyone "getting them off" - they've done something unsafe!

Sorry but this point in particular is very naive indeed. Just look at some of the high profile cases recently where people have been injured on the railway due fo their own stupidity and the staff involved have been prosecuted.

Let's face if the TOCs have a strong incentive to blame staff as much as possible, rather than admit that perhaps some working practices are not as safe as they would like to have people believe. Anyone can make a mistake or be unlucky. If you're unfortunate enough to be involved in an incident the union will help keep the TOC honest and ensure you are treated fairly - it's absolutely not about "getting people off".

 

[Richard_B]

Yes you could probably get away with being a free loader. But you'd then be being the person who's round it never is at the bar. But why be that person? To get a kick from being the clever one who's outsmarted the system? I wouldn't personally. Especially when the union has member specific benefits like the legal stuff that could save you in a tight spot.

 

[dctraindriver]

Worth its weight in gold. People who moan about joining probably waste that a month on coffees.....

 

[driver9000]

When you buy a car or a home you take out insurance to protect it don't you? Well think of a union as protection for your job and your livelihood. I don't agree with lots of the political stuff spouted in the monthly magazine and in reality I rarely read it now but having been a member of unions for 17 years the benefits outweigh the negatives. As we have seen in the last couple of years criminal charges are being brought against railway staff more and more these days and the unions provide legal services to assist you should you find yourself in the dock. Could you afford a lawyer? I'm not sure I could. Unions help keep employers in line and act as a voice between ground and office and despite what the press would have you believe 95% of the time the relationship is calm and the vast majority of disagreements are sorted without the public ever knowing about it.

As far as I'm concerned working in the railway or transport sector being in a union is as essential as taking out car insurance. ASLEF may miss the mark on occasions but I wouldn't go to work without them behind me.

 

[FordFocus]

This.

If anyone ever doubted the value of union membership, have a look at the Martin Zee case. The RMT sourced a first class expert witness and provided a good lawyer, in contrast to the rubbish the CPS turned up with. Zee was (rightly) found not guilty, an outcome which was far from guaranteed. They literally saved him from prison.

Fully agree. Many think having union membership is an insurance policy.

When I first joined the railway I immediately joined a union. It opened my eyes of how better things were than non unionised workplaces. Without unions the terms, conditions and pay would be very poor.

I can think of a couple of items my current employer tried to bring in recently that would have made our rosters and turns at my depot more fatiguing. This could potentially open up to making more mistakes or safety of the line incidents. ASLEF put a stop to it.

 

[Darandio]

Sorry but this point in particular is very naive indeed. Just look at some of the high profile cases recently where people have been injured on the railway due fo their own stupidity and the staff involved have been prosecuted.

Indeed, and such cases seem to be on the rise. This therefore makes the following comment utterly stupid.

[*]Legal cover - workplace and criminal for you and your family -- are RMT members and their families usually criminals?

Unreal. :roll:

 

[GB]

Legal cover - workplace and criminal for you and your family -- are RMT members and their families usually criminals?

First of all, anyone can find themselves at the wrong end of criminal proceedings...even you, and its as much about prosecution in your favor as it is a defense. Secondly see the following from Aslef website...

ASLEF
If you are a member of ASLEF, the train drivers' union, you and your family have access to comprehensive legal cover as part of your union membership.

Thompsons is proud to offer free, independent legal advice and representation to both working and retired ASLEF members and their families on a variety of work and non-work related matters.

Unlike high street law firms and claims management companies, who will take up to 25% of damages from their clients, ASLEF members who use their union legal service from Thompsons benefit from 100% compensation and no deductions for legal fees.

Whatever your injury and however complex the claim, Thompsons will fight hard to secure the maximum amount of compensation and resolve any issues in the shortest possible time.


Contact the ASLEF legal service for free legal advice and representation on:

Personal injury claims at or away from work, on holiday, on the roads
Free initial legal advice on medical negligence claims and special terms if there is a case to pursue
Serious injury including brain injury claims and spinal cord injury claims
Industrial disease or illness claims including asbestos
Employment law (accessed via your ASLEF district organiser)
Work-related criminal law advice (0800 587 7530)
Discounted rates for wills and conveyancing

ASLEF members’ families are also covered for:

Non-work related personal injury claims including holiday claims and road accident claims
Free initial legal advice on medical negligence claims and special terms if there is a case to pursue

Perhaps a little research is in order before trying to sound funny and clever.