Why is this train unable to stop at Dunkeld & Birnam?

[Sealink]

Randomly checking ScotRail, just to keep tabs on them, and noticed this:

12:07 Glasgow Queen Street to Inverness due 15:29 will no longer call at Dunkeld & Birnam.
This is because of a short-notice change to the timetable.


The train left Glasgow Queen Street at 1210 but has made up time.
The train is currently running 1 minute late, I am just curious as the reason for omitting a stop like this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could it be a platform length issue? The service appears to be running as a 170+158 combo (perhaps taking the 158 up to Inverness for some reason?), whereas looking at the same service last Monday it was just the 170. Though at a low demand station like that I'm surprised they can't just do local door in such circumstances, even if it means they have to go through at the stop before and make sure everyone for that station is in the appropriate unit.

 

[Sealink]

Could it be a platform length issue? The service appears to be running as a 170+158 combo (perhaps taking the 158 up to Inverness for some reason?), whereas looking at the same service last Monday it was just the 170. Though at a low demand station like that I'm surprised they can't just do local door in such circumstances, even if it means they have to go through at the stop before and make sure everyone for that station is in the appropriate unit.

I thought you were on to something (and still could be!), although Inter7City trains do call at Dunkeld & Birnam and they are five carriages.
Would a 170+158 be longer than the Inter7City formation?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The HSTs have selective door operation, don't they?

 

[43055]

The HSTs have selective door operation, don't they?

So would 158 and 170 be as a local door wouldn't it?

 

[stadler]

The HSTs have selective door operation, don't they?

No they do not. But they have the ability for the guard to open the local door only. The only current MK3s with SDO are the Chiltern ones which use the same DDS method that Turbostar trains have. But unfortunately the Scotrail ones do not have that.

So would 158 and 170 be as a local door wouldn't it?

The 170s do have SDO fitted. They use the DDS method. The guard can go to the rearmost coach that fits on the platform and activate it. The 158s do not have any SDO so they have to use local door only.

 

[3RDGEN]

Randomly checking ScotRail and noticed this:

12:07 Glasgow Queen Street to Inverness due 15:29 will no longer call at Dunkeld & Birnam.
This is because of a short-notice change to the timetable.


The train left Glasgow Queen Street at 1210 but has made up time.
The train is currently running 1 minute late, I am just curious as the reason for omitting a stop like this?

The platforms are being rebuilt which has caused a couple of other services to omit stops at Dunkeld & Birnam since January, 10:50 Inverness - Edinburgh and the 10:32 Edinburgh to Inverness, both of those are booked 170/158 combo's so I suspect it's an issue with safe door release. The 12:07 appears to be a 3 car normally but a 5 car today, the other 4 and 5 car trains stopping are HST's and unaffected maybe because the guard can pass through the full train and confirm all passengers are informed of the correct door position(s) for Dunkeld & Birnam. On a 158/170 combo passengers could board the "wrong set", with the guard unable to get to them, they then may use the emergency door release to exit only to find no platform?

The work is due to finish at the end of May.

"https://scotlandsrailway.com/projects/dunkeld-and-birnam-station" - A £3 million investment by Scotland’s Railway to improve the platform height at Dunkeld and Birnam Station. The works are to raise the level of the south sections of both platforms between the footbridge and platform ends, with a gentle connection between existing platforms and raised sections.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The platforms are being rebuilt which has caused a couple of other services to omit stops at Dunkeld & Birnam since January, 10:50 Inverness - Edinburgh and the 10:32 Edinburgh to Inverness, both of those are booked 170/158 combo's so I suspect it's an issue with safe door release. The 12:07 appears to be a 3 car normally but a 5 car today, the other 4 and 5 car trains stopping are HST's and unaffected maybe because the guard can pass through the full train and confirm all passengers are informed of the correct door position(s) for Dunkeld & Birnam. On a 158/170 combo passengers could board the "wrong set", with the guard unable to get to them, they then may use the emergency door release to exit only to find no platform?

It's interesting how different standards are applied by different TOCs on this kind of thing. When a 6 car set works the Windermere service Staveley (or was it Burneside?) only has 3 coaches platformed with no way through, and that seems to be accepted.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

It's interesting how different standards are applied by different TOCs on this kind of thing. When a 6 car set works the Windermere service Staveley (or was it Burneside?) only has 3 coaches platformed with no way through, and that seems to be accepted.

But the 195s have full SDO, part of the problem here is that the 158s don't.

 

[stadler]

It's interesting how different standards are applied by different TOCs on this kind of thing. When a 6 car set works the Windermere service Staveley (or was it Burneside?) only has 3 coaches platformed with no way through, and that seems to be accepted.

Similarly for over ten years at multiple Uckfield line stations (until the 2016 platform extensions) they used to run 171+171+171 formations daily where passengers in the rear unit had no access to alight at a couple stations. It worked fine. Most other TOCs seem to allow this. It is a better option then not calling. If it is a 158+170 or 170+158 formation then the guard on Scotrail should just make sufficient announcements in advance and walk through the train and check and make sure anyone for Dunkeld & Birnam switches to the front unit at the previous station. Not calling just seems like a very poor solution.

 

[3RDGEN]

It's just a guess/suggestion but given the two 5 car unit services have been missing the stop since the platform works started I suspect they have an issue with those stopping given it's a temporary situation which may catch passengers out.

 

[43096]

No they do not. But they have the ability for the guard to open the local door only. The only current MK3s with SDO are the Chiltern ones which use the same DDS method that Turbostar trains have. But unfortunately the Scotrail ones do not have that.

Not strictly correct. The GWR fleet in slam-door days had SDO for their CDL release. 125 Group have fitted some of their vehicles with SDO CDL in preservation.

 

[InvHst]

Dunkeld platform works 170/158 combo can't operate due to potentially passengers being in both parts. Only one door operation until works complete hsts use the accessable door to do and solo 170s can do one door as well. Anything that's turning up as 2 different sets and in service as both won't stop at dunkeld

 

[Tayway]

Seems a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater? There are gaps of 3+ hours between calls, and making everyone wait at Perth or double back at Pitlochry instead of just ensuring everyone is in the right unit seems bizarre.

 

[RPI]

No they do not. But they have the ability for the guard to open the local door only. The only current MK3s with SDO are the Chiltern ones which use the same DDS method that Turbostar trains have. But unfortunately the Scotrail ones do not have that.


The 170s do have SDO fitted. They use the DDS method. The guard can go to the rearmost coach that fits on the platform and activate it. The 158s do not have any SDO so they have to use local door only.

GWR MK3's have SDO on both the HST's and Sleeper.

 

[Goldfish62]

GWR MK3's have SDO on both the HST's and Sleeper.

Indeed, so it must have been removed on the Scotrail ones. But silly!

 

[The exile]

Indeed, so it must have been removed on the Scotrail ones. But silly!

Not if it was added to the GW HSTs when they were shortened and had power doors added.

 

[aar0]

Pretty confident GWR had it for a while. Stations like Neath have always had an announcement to move to the front 7/8 coaches. Think the guard goes to the last platformed door and selects release doors in front of this panel.

 

[Parallel]

I used a Castle set a few weeks ago and the guard announced only the front two carriages would be platformed at Lostwithiel and Saltash as far as I can remember, so the GWR ones must have SDO.

 

[43096]

Pretty confident GWR had it for a while. Stations like Neath have always had an announcement to move to the front 7/8 coaches. Think the guard goes to the last platformed door and selects release doors in front of this panel.

That is SDO of the CDL which is pretty much irrelevant in the context of this thread as the sets have had total replacement of the doors with sliding doors since.

 

[RPI]

The GWR ones have SDO, they also had SDO when they were slam door (after about 2007).

 

[Crossover]

Pretty confident GWR had it for a while. Stations like Neath have always had an announcement to move to the front 7/8 coaches. Think the guard goes to the last platformed door and selects release doors in front of this panel.

The GWR ones have SDO, they also had SDO when they were slam door (after about 2007).

If I remember correctly, as slammers, the guard had to be at the relevant local door and could then release either all in front or all behind?

 

[aar0]

If I remember correctly, as slammers, the guard had to be at the relevant local door and could then release either all in front or all behind?

Yes that’s the one. With a warning on the panel to look at the panel as it was the front/behind of the panel, not the direction of travel!

 

[fgwrich]

Yes that’s the one. With a warning on the panel to look at the panel as it was the front/behind of the panel, not the direction of travel!

Indeed, I can’t currently find the picture I’ve got of a full panel but this shows it in effect whilst calling at Hayle in 2018.

Regarding Dunkeld, as mentioned above the platform is being rebuilt and I believe only a short space ( 2 car or less) is currently useable, hence the local door issue.

 

[Guard86]

They can't do 170/158 because there's no walk through between the two trains (obv), thus rendering people possibly stranded in the non opening train. Though, this hasn't stopped this happening before at other short platforms on other routes. simple make an announcement the stop or two before so that people are located in the correct portion.

SR also don't allow SDO to be used by their Guards, it's only local door working (one door working).

 

[Crossover]

Though, this hasn't stopped this happening before at other short platforms on other routes. simple make an announcement the stop or two before so that people are located in the correct portion.

Indeed. Back when the 185's were fitted only with UDS (Unit DeSelect), if you weren't in the right unit, you weren't alighting at places like Chester-le-Street!

 

[43096]

Yes that’s the one. With a warning on the panel to look at the panel as it was the front/behind of the panel, not the direction of travel!

It was/is actually a rather good modification/improvement to the original CDL system.

 

[InvHst]

They can't do 170/158 because there's no walk through between the two trains (obv), thus rendering people possibly stranded in the non opening train. Though, this hasn't stopped this happening before at other short platforms on other routes. simple make an announcement the stop or two before so that people are located in the correct portion.

SR also don't allow SDO to be used by their Guards, it's only local door working (one door working).

The only platforms on the highland mainline with issues tbh are dunkeld currently. And Dalwhinnie heading south but nothing that's normally booked multi isn't due to stop there anyway so doesn't make much difference

 

[Guard86]

The only platforms on the highland mainline with issues tbh are dunkeld currently. And Dalwhinnie heading south but nothing that's normally booked multi isn't due to stop there anyway so doesn't make much difference

I was getting at Invergowrie, Springfield and the small ones between DEE and CAN. BYF for example, on the UP is 1 door working, but it's a nightmare with a 5 car 158/170.
Newtonmore is only 5 car also. If i remember correctly, 1DW was encoraged on HST5s.

Back to DKD, there's only 97m available.

 

[Goldfish62]

Not if it was added to the GW HSTs when they were shortened and had power doors added.

They had SDO way before that, back when they were full length!