Why is this ticket not valid on the 1040 Avanti

[Bletchleyite]

The passenger does not wish to be limited to WMT and doesn’t want to travel via High Wycombe on both legs.

Which fare should the ticket office sell?

If the passenger has the very niche desire to go from Paddington or to switch to XC at Coventry (sorry, not valid on XC north of Banbury), then this ticket would be appropriate. But this is very, very unlikely. If they were wanting to go one way on WMT and the other way on Chiltern, then it might also be appropriate, though whether two route-restricted singles are cheaper should certainly be explored (excessing isn't applicable because the WMT tickets are TOC restricted, not route), and if the passenger isn't sure which way they want to go yet they might be best advised to purchase on arriving at the relevant London terminus, or to take a Route High Wycombe undiscounted ticket* and consider whether they might want to excess it to the Any Permitted later if they decided to change their plans.

In short, there are use-cases for which this ticket with this Railcard discount would be the right one, but they are VERY niche to the point that only an enthusiast would be likely to choose them, and a short conversation would establish if the passenger was likely purchasing it for that reason. Most other passengers would likely thank them for pointing it out, say they do want to use the fastest option and change their request to the undiscounted version. The whole point of a booking office is to offer a professional, knowledgeable service, which includes asking the appropriate questions to establish the passenger's requirements and maybe save them some money!

* Excessing away Railcard discounts is not an "entitled" excess, and while some booking offices might do it others might not.

 

[BongoStar]

We don't know whether the passenger:

- specifically asked for this ticket with goldcard applied; or
- a ticket for that journey with goldcard applied

If it's the former, why should the staff inquire further. The customer has done (or not done) their research and asked for a specific product.

If it was the latter, then the staff should have inquired and sold appropriate ticket. Otherwise it appears he was sold an expensive ticket for a journey when a cheaper one would have been more appropriate.

I won't blame the staff for the first one but would for the second one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would a booking clerk in SE London be triggered to explore that particular gap? As others have said, we don't know specifically what was asked for, and therefore what may have triggered a question about validity beyond their normal patch.

I would expect ALL booking clerks to have a knowledge of key InterCity routes as well as their local patch. If I'd asked for, I don't know, Canley, I could forgive them for not knowing where that was, but Birmingham New St must be one of the most common asked-for destinations across the network that isn't London and I would expect all ticket clerks in England and Wales at least (I could forgive Wick not knowing!) to know the basics of how that might be reached and what implications Railcards may have on it.

 

[Haywain]

but Birmingham New St must be one of the most common asked-for destinations across the network that isn't London

For a south London suburban station it really won't be common at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For a south London suburban station it really won't be common at all.

London will be far and away the most common, maybe also Brighton? But in terms of non-London InterCity destinations it, Edinburgh and Manchester are the biggies.

I'd absolutely expect them to know that there are restrictions on the Gold Card on some InterCity journeys and to look them up if they didn't know the specifics before selling such a ticket. Particularly as the Gold Card is a bit of an oddity among Railcards - you just get it free with an annual season and probably haven't closely explored the terms of it before deciding to purchase in the way you might a Railcard you specifically paid for. (Buying short season tickets to get one specifically is an enthusiast's pursuit).

 

[sprunt]

If the customer is requesting a ticket with a discount, the default assumption is they understand how that discount can be used, unless there’s a good reason to suspect otherwise.

No it isn't.

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/3Y9UXuFziljwsGFCUAwKAA/0aa50a101febffda28c070aae2572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf

12.1 Some Tickets require you to travel on a specific train service or services, or the services
of a particular Train Company or Companies. This will be made clear to you when you
purchase your Ticket.

If the customer wasn't told of the restrictions on which TOC's services the ticket couldn't be used on - and to be fair we don't know for a fact that they weren't - then according to the conditions under which the ticket has been sold, that restriction does not exist.

In the real world, not every ticket office clerk is going to have an intimate enough knowledge of restrictions on distant parts of the network to advise on potential issues.

That's the railway's issue, and the consequences of not training the staff sufficiently shouldn't be visited on the customer.

 

[BongoStar]

I'd absolutely expect them to know that there are restrictions on the Gold Card on some InterCity journeys and to look them up if they didn't know the specifics before selling such a ticket.

Possibly, and maybe more so if they are suggesting what ticket to buy, what route to take etc. But if they are only fulfilling a customer request, it's not really their place to question every purchase.

I might be in the minority, but to me, anyone applying a railcard discount is making an optional choice based on their research of what is most cost effective.

 

[LowLevel]

I have to say one thing that has occurred to me, and it's not a dig at either side, is that these railcards and restrictions have existed as far as I know for nigh on 40 years and have managed to tick along quite nice, as far as anyone knows, ever since. What has changed to suddenly make the whole thing inappropriate, short of printing a potentially printing a lengthy bespoke description of restrictions each ticket - or more accurately, taking into account some ill advised and petty prosecutions, why has no one considered it a critical issue since the 1980s?

Advised of restrictions at point of purchase has been a thing forever - I've been buying tickets on trains and at stations since the 90s and bar some occasion discussion about off peak or booked train only, no one has ever felt the need to discuss railcard specific restrictions with me in that time.

As someone who sells train tickets on board trains am I going to expected to go over the T&Cs of every railcard discounted ticket with the purchaser each time to make sure they understand them and that there's no hidden pitfalls?

 

[robbeech]

“Railcard restrictions may apply”

That’s all it needs in its most basic form.

Print it on a railcard discounted ticket.
Say it or something to that effect when you sell a ticket.
Show it on the screen at a TVM or an online retailer.

It shouldn’t be difficult but as it isn’t in the railway’s interest to put any effort in (for example there’s no significant financial incetive* for doing it) it is unlikely to happen.


* you may think that by doing so the number of discounted tickets would reduce and the number of full price tickets increase but I suspect the amount is negligible. Add to this the chance of charging a new ticket on top and the likelihood of the passenger obtaining (or even being permitted) a refund for the original would likely counter some of this.

 

[redreni]

We don't know whether the passenger:

- specifically asked for this ticket with goldcard applied; or
- a ticket for that journey with goldcard applied

If it's the former, why should the staff inquire further. The customer has done (or not done) their research and asked for a specific product.

If it was the latter, then the staff should have inquired and sold appropriate ticket. Otherwise it appears he was sold an expensive ticket for a journey when a cheaper one would have been more appropriate.

I won't blame the staff for the first one but would for the second one.

To try to make the railway a bit more user-friendly for people.

 

[Chucky]

We don't know whether the passenger:

- specifically asked for this ticket with goldcard applied; or
- a ticket for that journey with goldcard applied

If it's the former, why should the staff inquire further. The customer has done (or not done) their research and asked for a specific product.

If it was the latter, then the staff should have inquired and sold appropriate ticket. Otherwise it appears he was sold an expensive ticket for a journey when a cheaper one would have been more appropriate.

I won't blame the staff for the first one but would for the second one.

If the customer wasn't told of the restrictions on which TOC's services the ticket couldn't be used on - and to be fair we don't know for a fact that they weren't - then according to the conditions under which the ticket has been sold, that restriction does not exist.

He wasn't told of any restrictions when purchasing the ticket. He planned to catch the 1040 Avanti from Euston and asked for a return from London to Birmingham at his local ticket office. That's the ticket he was sold with no question or clarification from the staff. If he'd been told it wasn't valid on Avanti he wouldn't have bought that ticket and instead would have bought one that was.

My friend was unaware of the restriction. Should the booking clerk have known and advised him accordingly? Probably.

In the end he had to travel on LNWR which he wasn't too happy about but, apart from those few extra hours he won't get back, it's not the end of the world and he's put it down to experience.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think it is totally reasonable for a ticket office to tell someone "You know you won't be able to use that before 10am, right?" or "You know you won't be able to use that on Avanti, there are cheaper options or I can sell you an undiscounted ticket?" where there's a relevant restriction, yes.

What is the point of a booking office if it doesn't offer knowledgeable, professional advice? In this case, online purchase or a planner based TVM would have correctly informed the passenger.

I quite agree. Anyone suggesting the ticket office shouldn't provide this information to the customer by default is just arguing them out of existence.

 

[robbeech]

I quite agree. Anyone suggesting the ticket office shouldn't provide this information to the customer by default is just arguing them out of existence.

A balance between reading the entirety of the restrictions for a ticket purchased with a railcard and saying nothing is surely required here.

A simple, are you aware of any additional railcard restrictions? Should suffice initially, followed by additional help should it be required by the customer.

I agree that on the whole we do hear a lot (and I’ve witnessed it plenty) of complaints about poor knowledge and poor help in ticket offices but on the flip side, going into the detail some people suggest should be given for every transaction would see queues to the next station at busier times.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I have to say one thing that has occurred to me, and it's not a dig at either side, is that these railcards and restrictions have existed as far as I know for nigh on 40 years and have managed to tick along quite nice, as far as anyone knows, ever since. What has changed to suddenly make the whole thing inappropriate, short of printing a potentially printing a lengthy bespoke description of restrictions each ticket - or more accurately, taking into account some ill advised and petty prosecutions, why has no one considered it a critical issue since the 1980s?

A lot has changed in that time.

Back in the 90s when I first got my Young Person's Railcard (as it was then) there wasn't a TVM and there wasn't an app. I bought the ticket from a ticket office or the guard. "Ere, you can't use that before 10am for a return to Leeds, do you want to wait?" was the reply at Shipley when- every September, without fail- I'd forget that the easement only applied in July and August.

So back then it wasn't the same issue. And when mistakes were made the TOCs didn't routinely seek to nail people for £150 "administrative settlements" over a railcard discount of a couple of quid.

Now you have TVMs and apps that explain some of the conditions with varying degrees of legibility and accuracy. You have short-distance advance tickets which are below the minimum farer and still valid to be discounted before 10am. And you have TOCs setting out with the specific intention of absolutely and properly shafting anyone who gets it slightly wrong.

As for the OP's case, actually, I would expect a ticket clerk in the Network Railcard area to know the basics that the Gold Card isn't valid on Avanti or LNER and that it's not valid before 9.30am on weekdays. Anything more specific than that, no (indeed I had one ticket clerk back in the days of the Calais day tripper who wouldn't issue it with the discount even though that was one of the few tickets that was valid before 9.30am- I could understand why they got it wrong).

 

[Cantab26]

He wasn't told of any restrictions when purchasing the ticket. He planned to catch the 1040 Avanti from Euston and asked for a return from London to Birmingham at his local ticket office. That's the ticket he was sold with no question or clarification from the staff. If he'd been told it wasn't valid on Avanti he wouldn't have bought that ticket and instead would have bought one that was.

Did he tell the clerk that he wished to catch this specific train?

And to be clear, was he given or did he ask about information on any time restrictions applicable to the fare as an off peak fare?

 

[sheff1]

Which fare should the ticket office have sold in your view?

The one appropriate for the passenger's requirement.

It’s not reasonable to expect ticket office clerks to reel off the full set of railcard restrictions as a matter of course whenever someone buys a ticket.

In the case of someone asking for a Gold Card discounted ticket from London to Birmingham a simple question along the lines of "Do you know you can't use that ticket on Avanti ?" is all that is needed at the outset. Any subsequent discussion would depend on the answer.

In the real world, not every ticket office clerk is going to have an intimate enough knowledge of restrictions on distant parts of the network to advise on potential issues. If the customer tried to buy the same ticket at Euston, the sale would have been rejected, as the staff there would likely know more about ticketing arrangements on their line.

Any ticket clerk working in the Gold Card area should know the basic conditions/restrictions pertaining to the same.

I have to say one thing that has occurred to me, and it's not a dig at either side, is that these railcards and restrictions have existed as far as I know for nigh on 40 years and have managed to tick along quite nice, as far as anyone knows, ever since. What has changed to suddenly make the whole thing inappropriate,

Possibly the introduction of Penalty Fares and the trawling back through passenger's purchasing history to identify previous 'offences'. Back in the day, people with an incorrect ticket would just be excessed to the correct fare.

 

[Falcon1200]

The info on the Gold Card isn’t particularly clear and nor is it particularly easy to find.

I have never owned a Gold Card, and never will, however it took me less than 60 seconds to find this on the internet;

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/23LngqwDfggHprWTDmhnLP/cb14d3813ce376a5d319790c0955dada/Gold_Card_Area_of_Validity_Map_June_2023.pdf

The link is to a page with both a map of the Card's area of validity AND a list of Train Operators on whose services it is accepted; Which of course does not include Avanti.

 

[Watershed]

I have never owned a Gold Card, and never will, however it took me less than 60 seconds to find this on the internet;

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/23LngqwDfggHprWTDmhnLP/cb14d3813ce376a5d319790c0955dada/Gold_Card_Area_of_Validity_Map_June_2023.pdf

The link is to a page with both a map of the Card's area of validity AND a list of Train Operators on whose services it is accepted; Which of course does not include Avanti.

The lack of validity on Avanti isn't explicitly stated though, is it? It would be rather more helpful if it pointed this out.

And it comes back to the point that most people:

1. Won't have had the restrictions pointed out to them at any time. They may not even be aware there are restrictions on using a Gold Card if they normally never encounter them because they usually only travel on the weekend and/or on companies it's valid on. This is no different to students and those turning 18 who start using their 16-25 Railcard in July or August, and thus have no idea of the minimum fare rule that comes into force in September
2. Wouldn't necessarily know that there are two companies who run between Euston and New Street, or what their names are (not helped by the three identities that WMT have, depending on the system/information you're looking at).

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s really not much to ask that a clerk says “you know this isn’t valid on Avanti?” when selling a ticket where the quickest and most obvious way to make the journey is otherwise using Avanti. Nobody is asking for chapter and verse of everything with every ticket, just some basic common sense and service.

 

[Snow1964]

I'd consider correctly advising a passenger who may have made a mistake, even if they asked for something specific, is a key part of the role of the sort of high quality, professional, knowledgeable advice booking office staff should be offering.

And in a real world the barrier staff at Euston would have explained the reason for the problem, and realised a railway ticket office is likely to have made a mistake (because it was clearly a ticket office issued ticket and not a customer chosen on TVM or online ticket), and accordingly offered the (paying) customer a high quality, knowledgeable solution to not inconvenience them further.

.... rather than something amounting to ain't valid, hard luck, and we don't care. Or whatever the exact words were.

 

[Haywain]

because it was clearly a ticket office issued ticket

I don't know how you reach that conclusion - only by reference to the NLC is the selling location known.

 

[MotCO]

.... rather than something amounting to ain't valid, hard luck, and we don't care. Or whatever the exact words were.

And isn't this the nub of the issue. The Railway seems hellbent on making ticketing mistakes a big issue for the passenger. Yes, there are some deliberate evaders, and I would have thought that ticket inspectors can tell them apart from genuine mistakes, e.g. known doughnutting schemes, attitude test, famililar faces etc. Where a passenger has inadvertently got the wrong ticket, or got on the wrong train, the ticket inspector should surely help the passenger get the right ticket (e.g. excessing) and help them on their way. Such a passenger will return to trains; penalising them unfairly will put them off for life.

 

[Watershed]

I don't know how you reach that conclusion - only by reference to the NLC is the selling location known.

The format of the ticket itself should have been a bit of a clue - I'm not aware of any TVMs that print tickets like this. And as an RPI I'm sure they're used to checking NLCs to see if "short" tickets have been printed in a location that gives the game away; the iKB is only a click away if they want to check.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The link is to a page with both a map of the Card's area of validity AND a list of Train Operators on whose services it is accepted; Which of course does not include Avanti.

Where- precisely, clearly, and not by omission- does it say it is not valid on Avanti or LNER?

A look at that map shows it is valid as far north as Stafford. It’s only when you dig into the key you note that the map only shows the LNR service.

It also says “rail franchise or train company trading names may change during the currency of this publication”. So you need to know that Avanti isn’t London North Western Railway and also that neither of those entities have changed their names since the map was issued 18 months ago.

Clear and concise? Hardly.

The website doesn’t mention the lack of validity on Avanti or LNER. It would be literally one sentence to make this clear. I don’t see how you can justify this communication.

 

[Haywain]

The format of the ticket itself should have been a bit of a clue - I'm not aware of any TVMs that print tickets like this.

Such differences are far from obvious to most of us - I've spent much of the last 20 years loking at tickets and I wouldn't know, and I therefore wouldn't assume a member of barrier staff would know.

And as an RPI I'm sure they're used to checking NLCs

This was barrier staff. I would expect their knowledge of NLCs to be minimal.

 

[TUC]

Where- precisely, clearly, and not by omission- does it say it is not valid on Avanti or LNER?

A look at that map shows it is valid as far north as Stafford. It’s only when you dig into the key you note that the map only shows the LNR service.

It also says “rail franchise or train company trading names may change during the currency of this publication”. So you need to know that Avanti isn’t London North Western Railway and also that neither of those entities have changed their names since the map was issued 18 months ago.

Clear and concise? Hardly.

The website doesn’t mention the lack of validity on Avanti or LNER. It would be literally one sentence to make this clear. I don’t see how you can justify this communication.

Not the only example of TOC names being out of date on passenger information. This one from West Yorkshire Metro advises that combinations of its tickets and passes with other rail tickets cannot be used on 'services operated by CrossCountry, East Midlands Trains, Virgin Trains or Virgin Trains East Coast'

https://www.westyorks-ca.gov.uk/media/5010/1910-cross-boundary-leaflet-22318-final.pdf

 

[Hadders]

In my experience ticket offices don't issue any literature when you buy an Annual Gold card. If anything it's the other way round, with me having to educate them about the benefits.....

 

[infobleep]

When I got one of my annual season tickets, I forget when, I was given a folded gold card area map. That explained where it could be used and by which TOCs, including ones that it couldn't be used on.

 

[miklcct]

When I got one of my annual season tickets, I forget when, I was given a folded gold card area map. That explained where it could be used and by which TOCs, including ones that it couldn't be used on.

I didn't receive one when I bought my annual season ticket last year from TfL.

 

[Falcon1200]

The lack of validity on Avanti isn't explicitly stated though, is it? It would be rather more helpful if it pointed this out.

Where- precisely, clearly, and not by omission- does it say it is not valid on Avanti or LNER?

The list of colour-coded routes and Train Operators looks pretty clear to me! The passenger obviously knew that they could travel as far as Birmingham with their card, so had some knowledge at least of its validity. I fully agree that the railway is not always as helpful as it could be, but there has to be, surely, some degree of responsibility on the passenger as well?