Why is Thameslink so terrible?

[Bald Rick]

Oh right, presumably then there are different reasons why the Sevenoaks' services don't go beyond Blackfriars, and the Maidstone East line TL services have been shelved altogether (I know of a few explaining the latter).

AIUI, Sevenoaks go through the core from May.

 

[SE%Traveller]

The Sevenoaks Service it very reliable. True it doesn't currently run through the core and the other Catford Loop service not running at all makes that easier. But with multiple alternative routings it really only goes horribly wrong with an incident at Bromley South or at Elephant. Otherwise the trains are generally where they need to be when the incident clears. Even Elephant need not be an issue as the trains can keep to the timetable by diverting to Victoria after Denmark Hill same journey time and with a 20 minute layover more than enough time to get to Blackfriars and back and Victoria (Eastern) being exceptional as a london terminal by having spare capacity. But sadly as i understand from these forums route knowledge has been allowed to lapse...

 

[Fincra5]

It is. Easily.

If every train is in ATO maybe... and arrives to the core ontime.

 

[Horizon22]

Oh right, presumably then there are different reasons why the Sevenoaks' services don't go beyond Blackfriars, and the Maidstone East line TL services have been shelved altogether (I know of a few explaining the latter that has nothing to do with the core, but believed the core was an issue anyway).

Partly because Sutton services were supposed to go into the bay but the locals kicked up a stink is one issue. As for Maidstone East/Ashford, there are so many issues as to why that service hasn't begun yet (and may never) unrelated to the core.

Overall, Thameslink has on the whole become fairly reliable. Certainly the 9J services remain a problem since they took over Southern, and the 2018 timetable was a well documented disaster, but GTR (including Southern, recent weeks notwithstanding) has become much better. As has been mentioned by others, trying to cram peak services into the timetable with tight margins is a recipe for unreliability. By just some moderate shifts of the timetable and to accommodate a reduction in Covid flows, a disproportionate improvement can be achieved in punctuality. Most TOCs - including GTR - will no doubt be looking at this as timetables are reshaped into 2023.

 

[cle]

Only over a few days but I tried a week recently from West Dulwich transferring cross platform at the next station towards Blackfriars. First day southeastern was on time but Thameslink cancelled, next Thameslink was so full I could barely get on. Next day southeastern 10 mins late and missed the connection. Rinse and repeat over the next few days. And yeah, gave that up.

That’s a shame. It would be great - in theory - if Herne Hill was really effective as a high frequency, cross-platform interchange between the two routes.

 

[Horizon22]

That’s a shame. It would be great - in theory - if Herne Hill was really effective as a high frequency, cross-platform interchange between the two routes.

It normally is good, but there might still be some Covid service reductions on both SE and GTR? Southeastern aren't running their through peak only Beckenham Junction - Blackfriars service as an example.

 

[brad465]

That’s a shame. It would be great - in theory - if Herne Hill was really effective as a high frequency, cross-platform interchange between the two routes.

Realistically some grade separation would be needed to remove the many conflicts at Herne Hill for what you state here to be possible, which given the built-up nature of the area around the station, coupled with the lines at the southern end of the station being on viaducts, is practically impossible.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Has the OP not considered travelling to Norwood Jct from the main Dorking station? Taking the Victoria train and changing at Sutton is an equal time 45 minutes.

 

[ComUtoR]

If every train is in ATO maybe... and arrives to the core ontime.

I think, at one point pre covid, that it was up to 22tph with just the human up the front.

Drivers are shockingly efficient. !

With the core, I always found the issue was when the service breaks and not when it's running. Trains stack up pretty quickly when something goes wrong but otherwise the core generally flows ok.

 

[Taunton]

It is. Easily.

I'm sure it is too. Directly underneath Thameslink where Thameslink now is, at Blackfriars, the Underground on the District Line in the 1950s, all manual, used to manage 40 per hour.

The point is, you can do that, but don't actually schedule for it; that's your reserve to recover from disruption.

 

[ComUtoR]

The point is, you can do that, but don't actually schedule for it; that's your reserve to recover from disruption.

The infrastructure helps mitigate and protect against disruption.

Both lines are reversible and there are crossovers throughout.

It's a clever peice of kit down there.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Isn't Thameslink as a whole much better than it was than during the pre-700 era? Wasn't there a lot of short forms and delays on Thameslink prior to then?

 

[Bald Rick]

If every train is in ATO maybe... and arrives to the core ontime.

ATO is a must, and arrivals to the core entrance within the slot would certainly help in running a perfectly reliable (to the minute) 24tph, yes.

Isn't Thameslink as a whole much better than it was than during the pre-700 era? Wasn't there a lot of short forms and delays on Thameslink prior to then?

I’d say so. Short forms did happen, albeit not often. The 700s are much better able to cope with delays, due to fantastic acceleration and the ability to hoover up passengers (or disgorge them) very quickly. In 319 days station dwells during even minor disruption could easily be 2 minutes plus, and not just in the core.

Also the 700s create fewer delays - in the wet and autumn the 319s were next to hopeless, causing lots of minor late running that soon added up. Plus regular failures to get up the incline at City TL. That’s not the case with the 700s.

 

[21C101]

Its fine on this side of London on the Midland Mainline at the moment, four an hour all day, although going to Bedford can result in skipstopping cancellations.

I suspect the southern end suffers because the top priority is to get everything presenting on time at Canal Junction and Camden Road on time to minimise intercity disruption and consequent knockon effects all the way to Inverness.

 

[RJ]

I think Thameslink is great - but then I only ever use it off peak and the bits where there’s a high frequency service. Way better than what there there before London Bridge was redone and the ECML link opened.

The weekend service keeps people on their toes, no two are the same it seems!

 

[RichJF]

Thameslink used to be far, far worse. Try getting on a class 319 with no air con, only 4 coaches & trundling through South London behind stopping services.
Yes there are small delays here and there, but the quality & timeliness of the service has improved markedly over the last 5 years.

 

[Bald Rick]

Try getting on a class 319 with no air con, only 4 coaches & trundling through South London behind stopping services.

in the 319 days, the challenge was getting on a peak train at all at some stations (In normal service). Obviously that’s not a problem now, but in Pre Covid days with the 700s it wasn’t a problem either.

 

[baz962]

Its fine on this side of London on the Midland Mainline at the moment, four an hour all day, although going to Bedford can result in skipstopping cancellations.

I suspect the southern end suffers because the top priority is to get everything presenting on time at Canal Junction and Camden Road on time to minimise intercity disruption and consequent knockon effects all the way to Inverness.

It doesn't seem like they want to minimise disruption to the inter city service. Stuck slow running behind a Thameslink very often.

 

[Taunton]

in the 319 days, the challenge was getting on a peak train at all at some stations (In normal service).

Actually I used to get it worse off-peak, because of sending out minimalist formations outside the peak, which of course can't happen with 700s. 4-car 319 coming into Gatwick from Brighton one Saturday morning, already well filled, no space for luggage, by East Croydon some of the crowd, especially those who had waited further down the platform, couldn't even get in. On past Selhurst, where half the fleet was packed into the sidings for the weekend. Everything we passed going the other way was 4-car as well.

 

[Minstral25]

Thameslink is generally very good. Regular service with high quality trains. Seats could be a lot better for us longer distance travelers but are ideal for the Core section.

What I think the OP is really saying is why is the service so poor from East Croydon to Redhill on the Slow lines, plus why are the connections from Thameslink/Southern to GWR services at Redhill so poor.

Both of these have been issues for years. The Slow line from East Croydon towards Purley is heavily congested with awkward conflicting moves. Services from East Grinstead/Uckfield crossing the lines at South Croydon on flat crossing, Same at Purley with another flat crossing for the Caterham/Tattenham trains, with added complexity of splitting them in the platforms at Purley which can add delays as trains wait to enter the right platform.

What invariably happens is that Thameslink's and Southern arrive late at Redhill (looking at Recent Train Times you can see many services running from East Croydon to Redhill arrive 3-7 minutes late), which means the connections to GWR services are regularly missed. This has been a problem since the late 2000's and has never been solved.

Thameslink have a long scheduled wait at Redhill to make up time by end of journey which really is cheating because it doesn't help passengers like the OP

 

[Bald Rick]

It doesn't seem like they want to minimise disruption to the inter city service. Stuck slow running behind a Thameslink very often.

that’s actually timetabled slow running, particularly in the peak.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm sure it is too. Directly underneath Thameslink where Thameslink now is, at Blackfriars, the Underground on the District Line in the 1950s, all manual, used to manage 40 per hour.

The point is, you can do that, but don't actually schedule for it; that's your reserve to recover from disruption.

The Tube is also a bit different, as with few service variations all you are mostly aiming to do is maintain frequency. That is different from Thameslink, which is a bit like a super-Castlefield in being made up of a load of services with varying destinations and stopping patterns, where the timetable matters much more.

 

[SE%Traveller]

* there is a saying that you make your own luck. Personally, I wouldn’t rely on a 6 minute connection at Redhill, even though the timetable ‘allows’ it.

Journey Planner sometime allows 2 minutes to make the change at Blackfriars from platform 1 to 3. Brave to rely on that day in day out for the Sevenoaks connection with a half hour wait if missed.

I’d say so. Short forms did happen, albeit not often. The 700s are much better able to cope with delays, due to fantastic acceleration and the ability to hoover up passengers (or disgorge them) very quickly. In 319 days station dwells during even minor disruption could easily be 2 minutes plus, and not just in the core.

The impact on dwell times when the 700s came in regular service was quite remarkable. The 8.45 from Denmark Hill to Luton was rarely there before 8.50, suddenly it started arriving on time and I missed it on several occasions before accepting that my timeliness was the problem...

 

[Surreytraveller]

Have you tried changing at Sutton rather than Redhill?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Very bad timetabling caused by a need to give everyone a direct service to everywhere with stupid stuff like Peterborough to Horsham.

Bad staffing as drivers only sign certain routes.

Bad trains as they’re designed as people movers, when the 12 car ones probably should have been a bit better.

Hopefully soon we can overhaul it.

 

[21C101]

The core of the problem the OP describes is that the Reigate to Guildford line is not electrified. If it were then a London Bridge or Victoria to Guildford via Redhill service could operate which, if fast to East Croydon (eg Vic, Clapham Junction, I think would be signifiantly quicker than Dorking North to Victoria.

 

[Bald Rick]

Very bad timetabling caused by a need to give everyone a direct service to everywhere with stupid stuff like Peterborough to Horsham.

Bad staffing as drivers only sign certain routes.

Bad trains as they’re designed as people movers, when the 12 car ones probably should have been a bit better.

Hopefully soon we can overhaul it.

Yes you’re quite right and it’s all rubbish. No doubt you could fix it all overnight.

 

[JonathanH]

stupid stuff like Peterborough to Horsham

Why is it stupid? It has a reasonable turnaround at each end. It provides the fastest service at Redhill. It can be terminated at Three Bridges if really necessary. It allows 12-car operation at both ends. It runs on the opposite side of each half hour from the Cambridge service giving an even frequency from Hitchin and Stevenage to London. What alternative was there for the Northern end of the Horsham service? A stopper has to run between Three Bridges and Horsham to serve Ifield and Littlehaven (although I guess an empty 3-car unit shuttling Three Bridges to Dorking might be another way to do that).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why is it stupid? It has a reasonable turnaround at each end. It provides the fastest service at Redhill. It can be terminated at Three Bridges if really necessary. It allows 12-car operation at both ends. It runs on the opposite side of each half hour from the Cambridge service giving an even frequency from Hitchin and Stevenage to London. What alternative was there for the Northern end of the Horsham service?

It's rather questionable as to whether putting anything other than the simple "Bedford-Brighton plus Luton-Sutton loop" through it was about as good an idea as Castlefield ending up the way it did. For high frequency services, a simpler service pattern is desirable, people can change onto it if they need to access it, as per Crossrail which is more or less the same thing but east to west.

I wouldn't call it stupid, but I would say that the level of complication which has been introduced was the wrong decision.

You could I suppose argue it's only replicating the Merseyrail Wirral Line, but that has far fewer interactions and a much lower frequency overall.

 

[JonathanH]

It's rather questionable as to whether putting anything other than the simple "Bedford-Brighton plus Luton-Sutton loop" through it was about as good an idea as Castlefield ending up the way it did. For high frequency services, a simpler service pattern is desirable, people can change onto it if they need to access it, as per Crossrail which is more or less the same thing but east to west.

I wouldn't call it stupid, but I would say that the level of complication which has been introduced was the wrong decision.

Yes, keeping it 8tph through the Core could well have been simpler. The justification for doing otherwise was the need for 12-car operation on the GN routes that didn't fit at Kings Cross. Of course, we now know that was completely unnecessary with hindsight but no one saw March 2020 coming.