Why is nationalism so bad?

[Blamethrower]

We've all heard it before: "nationalistic right wing bigots", "Hitler youth" etc etc whenever people refer to any party that is perceived to be right wing or indeed putting the needs of their own country first.

Why is nationalism always perceived to a bad thing in England?

European countries don't see it the way we do, even if they are in the EU. They always look to protect their national interests first, then they show solidarity with the rest of Europe.

The UK, England, Great Britain (whatever the **** you want to call us) seem to be entrenched with the "international" identity being the only choice.

This, to me shows the underlying class-war of the Brexit debate.

National interest = Out, racist, nationalist, working-class, poor, ill-educated, bigotted, etc
International Interest = In, multicultural, middle-class, well educated, affluent, powerful

Yet the paradox here, at least to me, in the the OUT voters appear to have their values rooted in Imperialism, which is the worst form of racism.

Thoughts please and no self-righteous finger wagging for committing to one side or the other.

 

[AM9]

We've all heard it before: "nationalistic right wing bigots", "Hitler youth" etc etc whenever people refer to any party that is perceived to be right wing or indeed putting the needs of their own country first.

Why is nationalism always perceived to a bad thing in England?

European countries don't see it the way we do, even if they are in the EU. They always look to protect their national interests first, then they show solidarity with the rest of Europe.

The UK, England, Great Britain (whatever the **** you want to call us) seem to be entrenched with the "international" identity being the only choice.

This, to me shows the underlying class-war of the Brexit debate.

National interest = Out, racist, nationalist, working-class, poor, ill-educated, bigotted, etc
International Interest = In, multicultural, middle-class, well educated, affluent, powerful

Yet the paradox here, at least to me, in the the OUT voters appear to have their values rooted in Imperialism, which is the worst form of racism.

Thoughts please and no self-righteous finger wagging for committing to one side or the other.

Shouldn't 'nostalgic' be added to the 'National Interest' attributes?

 

[Steveman]

We've all heard it before: "nationalistic right wing bigots", "Hitler youth" etc etc whenever people refer to any party that is perceived to be right wing or indeed putting the needs of their own country first.

Why is nationalism always perceived to a bad thing in England?

European countries don't see it the way we do, even if they are in the EU. They always look to protect their national interests first, then they show solidarity with the rest of Europe.

The UK, England, Great Britain (whatever the **** you want to call us) seem to be entrenched with the "international" identity being the only choice.

This, to me shows the underlying class-war of the Brexit debate.

National interest = Out, racist, nationalist, working-class, poor, ill-educated, bigotted, etc
International Interest = In, multicultural, middle-class, well educated, affluent, powerful

Yet the paradox here, at least to me, in the the OUT voters appear to have their values rooted in Imperialism, which is the worst form of racism.

Thoughts please and no self-righteous finger wagging for committing to one side or the other.

The answer is : It isn't.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Nationalism can be bad and dangerous if it's used to justify an "us and them" way of thinking. Unfortunately, at the moment, it's being used in exactly that way by many.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Nationalism is almost always rightwing politics, Trump, Ukip etc are groups I can't trust.
I have to add that people support Brexit and status quo on all sides of class, political, age, education, etc fronts. Like the Scots Indy Referendum it'll split every group down the middle.
Especially since both arguments have been spreading lies and scaremongering.

 

[DarloRich]

Nationalism isn't a bad thing on first viewing.

Of course it all depends on what type of nationalism we are discussing. Integral nationalism is the sort practiced by fascists or totalitarians, involves the reduction of individual liberties, ideological purity, power held in the hands of the chosen, radical extremism, military power, violent expansion and the persecution of those not in the chosen group.

I think we might all agree they are bad things.
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Nationalism is almost always rightwing politics, Trump, Ukip etc are groups I can't trust.
I have to add that people support Brexit and status quo on all sides of class, political, age, education, etc fronts. Like the Scots Indy Referendum it'll split every group down the middle.
Especially since both arguments have been spreading lies and scaremongering.

no it isnt.

it is perfectly possible to be a left wing nationalist! That traditional left wing view of nationalism derives from the French Revolution and centers around, social equality, justice, popular sovereignty, and national self-determination.

The further expansion of left wing nationalism trends towards Marxism and other fellow travelers that are best avoided!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why is nationalism always perceived to a bad thing in England?

It isn't.

Xenophobia and racism are perceived to be bad things in England.

The likes of Britain First try to argue that their xenophobia and racism is merely "nationalism", but it is not. It is xenophobia and racism.

Go to any folk music festival and you'll see huge pride in our country and our culture.

National interest = Out, racist, nationalist, working-class, poor, ill-educated, bigotted, etc
International Interest = In, multicultural, middle-class, well educated, affluent, powerful

The most depressing thing about the Brexit debate is how it has been reduced to this sort of false dichotomy.

Working collaboratively with other countries in Europe may or may not be in our national interest, just as going it alone may or may not be in our national interest. Perhaps the UKIP lot ought to spend more time explaining why we'll be better off going it alone and less time whining that everyone thinks they're xenophobic.

 

[TheKnightWho]

The further expansion of left wing nationalism trends towards Marxism and other fellow travelers that are best avoided!

Not directly relevant, but Marxism =/= socialism or communism. It's more of a Continental philosophy that idealises looking at history as a holistic whole, and is more of an understanding of the development of economics (and the structure that goes on top of it: politics, religion etc.) It's in contrast to analytic modes of philosophy which like to separate such analyses into bitty, bite-size chunks that, in the view of Marxists, isn't actually particularly useful.

One of the consequences of this is looking at people in groups, rather than separated out as individuals, which is why it always talks about the bourgeoisie and the proletariat - it also underpins much of leftist thought on how we should look at other groups such as gender, race etc.

However, that does not all necessarily entail the radical overthrow of the status-quo with violent revolution and the installation of a dictatorship. (Even if Marx himself might think it would )

 

[krus_aragon]

Nationalism is almost always rightwing politics, Trump, Ukip etc are groups I can't trust.

Yet the Scottish National Party and Plaid Cymru are Nationalist parties that are described as being on the left of Politics. "Nationalism" is a rather broad label.

 

[TheNewNo2]

There'snothing wrong with being patriotic - with liking your country and being proud of it. Nationalism, as generally considered, is more than that though, and is frequently used as a way to avoid thinking about the things which aren't so great, or ignoring the things about other countries which are good. The Plaid/SNP Nationalism is a different beast, a synonym if you will.



To the OP, the UK is the political entity, Great Britain is the island of England/Wales/Scotland, the British Isles are Great Britain plus the islands of Ireland, Man, Jersey, Shetlands, etc. The UK also contains overseas territories such as the Falklands and Gibraltar.

 

[Harbornite]

The original post isn't necessarily true. Having national pride is not frowned upon, by and large. However, nationalism can be and has been used to justify bad things and the association with the Nazis is not a coincidence.

 

[Robinson]

The UK, England, Great Britain (whatever the **** you want to call us)

Did you mean to equate England with Britain? Cos there's a rather serious flaw in that and it's one that we Celts are running out of patience with

 

[Gutfright]

Not directly relevant, but Marxism =/= socialism or communism. It's more of a Continental philosophy that idealises looking at history as a holistic whole, and is more of an understanding of the development of economics (and the structure that goes on top of it: politics, religion etc.) It's in contrast to analytic modes of philosophy which like to separate such analyses into bitty, bite-size chunks that, in the view of Marxists, isn't actually particularly useful.

One of the consequences of this is looking at people in groups, rather than separated out as individuals, which is why it always talks about the bourgeoisie and the proletariat - it also underpins much of leftist thought on how we should look at other groups such as gender, race etc.

However, that does not all necessarily entail the radical overthrow of the status-quo with violent revolution and the installation of a dictatorship. (Even if Marx himself might think it would )

Karl Marx co-wrote the Communist Manifesto (which called for the establishment of the 'dictatorship of the proletariat') when he was hella young. As he got older and wiser his views on the subject changed somewhat.

The so-called 'cultural Marxism' of the left on race, gender etc has nothing to do with anything Marx wrote ever.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Karl Marx co-wrote the Communist Manifesto (which called for the establishment of the 'dictatorship of the proletariat') when he was hella young. As he got older and wiser his views on the subject changed somewhat.

The so-called 'cultural Marxism' of the left on race, gender etc has nothing to do with anything Marx wrote ever.

What you say is simply not true. I didn't state that Marx wrote about it, but it is undeniably derived from his writings, and his views on the philosophy of science, the theory of history etc.

To try and separate the two and say it has "nothing to do with anything Marx wrote ever" is just wrong.

 

[Gutfright]

What you say is simply not true. I didn't state that Marx wrote about it, but it is undeniably derived from his writings, and his views on the philosophy of science, the theory of history etc.

To try and separate the two and say it has "nothing to do with anything Marx wrote ever" is just wrong.

National Socialism is 'undeniably derived' from the writings of Charles Darwin.

To try and separate the two and say Nazism has "nothing to do with anything Darwin wrote ever" is just wrong.

Would you agree?

 

[TheKnightWho]

National Socialism is 'undeniably derived' from the writings of Charles Darwin.

To try and separate the two and say Nazism has "nothing to do with anything Darwin wrote ever" is just wrong.

Would you agree?

It would be wrong to separate them. I'm not sure what your point is. That doesn't mean I think Darwin was a Nazist, but then again I don't think Marx was an anti-fa either.

 

[krus_aragon]

Did you mean to equate England with Britain? Cos there's a rather serious flaw in that and it's one that we Celts are running out of patience with

This conflation of England with Britain is part of the issue in the UK. In decades and centuries gone by, the terms were interchangable: British achievments were English achievements. Now, with more prominent Scottish and Welsh national identities, it's generally accepted that British no longer equals English. I feel many are now struggling with what it means to be English, and what it means to be British.

(I don't mean to suggest that these questions don't also arise in Scotland, Wales, etc., but that the situation in England is subtly different.)

 

[Railops]

Did you mean to equate England with Britain? Cos there's a rather serious flaw in that and it's one that we Celts are running out of patience with

Oh dear an angry Scotsman, stop being so precious.

 

[Busaholic]

There'snothing wrong with being patriotic - with liking your country and being proud of it. Nationalism, as generally considered, is more than that though, and is frequently used as a way to avoid thinking about the things which aren't so great, or ignoring the things about other countries which are good. The Plaid/SNP Nationalism is a different beast, a synonym if you will.



To the OP, the UK is the political entity, Great Britain is the island of England/Wales/Scotland, the British Isles are Great Britain plus the islands of Ireland, Man, Jersey, Shetlands, etc. The UK also contains overseas territories such as the Falklands and Gibraltar.

In Dr Johnson's time the word nationalism would not have existed, but he did say that 'patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel', no doubt based on his personal experience. In my lifetime many of the people who flaunt the Union Jack and the St George flag at every opportunity have been bigots, often violent ones at that. The businessman/politician Robert Maxwell (not of course his original name) was notorious for his attempts to exploit patriotism for his own commercial and other ends, starting with his 'I'm backing Britain' campaign in the 1960s featuring much (ab)use of the Union flag and the usual self-promotion of this vile man. Scottish nationalism may now be mostly the preserve of left-of-centre political types, and Welsh nationalism too to a lesser extent, but the antecedents of both were way to the right on the political spectrum, as is still the tiny body of people who equate the Cornish language with Cornish nationalism.

Personally, I would say that anyone who thinks the answer to the huge mess we are in globally is more patriotism or more nationalism really needs to lie down in a darkened room and reflect for a period of some years.

 

[Railops]

In Dr Johnson's time the word nationalism would not have existed, but he did say that 'patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel', no doubt based on his personal experience. In my lifetime many of the people who flaunt the Union Jack and the St George flag at every opportunity have been bigots, often violent ones at that. The businessman/politician Robert Maxwell (not of course his original name) was notorious for his attempts to exploit patriotism for his own commercial and other ends, starting with his 'I'm backing Britain' campaign in the 1960s featuring much (ab)use of the Union flag and the usual self-promotion of this vile man. Scottish nationalism may now be mostly the preserve of left-of-centre political types, and Welsh nationalism too to a lesser extent, but the antecedents of both were way to the right on the political spectrum, as is still the tiny body of people who equate the Cornish language with Cornish nationalism.

Personally, I would say that anyone who thinks the answer to the huge mess we are in globally is more patriotism or more nationalism really needs to lie down in a darkened room and reflect for a period of some years.

Fly a patriotic flag and you're probably a violent bigot eh ? your agenda is pretty clear then.

 

[Busaholic]

Fly a patriotic flag and you're probably a violent bigot eh ? your agenda is pretty clear then.

If you don't know the difference between fly and flaunt, then I suggest you consult a dictionary. I was born on 23rd April, I'm English and I detest how the St George flag has been suborned.

 

[Railops]

If you don't know the difference between fly and flaunt, then I suggest you consult a dictionary. I was born on 23rd April, I'm English and I detest how the St George flag has been suborned.

Why on earth shouldn't it be flaunted ? who are you the flag Police ?

 

[Johnuk123]

If you don't know the difference between fly and flaunt, then I suggest you consult a dictionary. I was born on 23rd April, I'm English and I detest how the St George flag has been suborned.

That sounds a bit stupid.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Agree with Busaholic on this, I think that the English have allowed undesirable elements to abuse the flag (both that of St George and the Union Jack). I don't think that he or I would be suggesting that there are plenty of occasions when the flag can be used correctly. Held aloft by marching skinheads is not one of them.

 

[Gutfright]

I'm a consensus-builder (no, really!) and surely one thing we can all agree on is that those '[Muslims/ Lesbians/ some other minority] want to ban OUR flag. Share if you are PROUD of your country' type posts that pollute facebook and other, cooler, social networking sites are getting really f@*$ing irritating?
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It would be wrong to separate them. I'm not sure what your point is. That doesn't mean I think Darwin was a Nazist, but then again I don't think Marx was an anti-fa either.

My point was to try to defend Karl Marx, who actually talked a lot of sense but who has come to be associated with certain ideas I'm sure he would have abhorred!

 

[AM9]

I'm a consensus-builder (no, really!) and surely one thing we can all agree on is that those '[Muslims/ Lesbians/ some other minority] want to ban OUR flag. Share if you are PROUD of your country' type posts that pollute facebook and other, cooler, social networking sites are getting really f@*$ing irritating?
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My point was to try to defend Karl Marx, who actually talked a lot of sense but who has come to be associated with certain ideas I'm sure he would have abhorred!

Probably more worrying than irritating. Most normal onlookers either ridicule them or ignore them, but there are elements who are taken in by the obtuse criticism of minorities who clearly don't feel the need to wrap themselves in the Union or St Georges flag.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Just a thought..if one goes to France, the tricolour is to be seen flying from the Mairie in even the smallest villages. If such a proposal was made in England, i can foresee a bit of a furore. I wouldn't see an issue in Wales, even though I am not a Nationalist (ie a PC supporter) it would give me no problem.

 

[TheKnightWho]

My point was to try to defend Karl Marx, who actually talked a lot of sense but who has come to be associated with certain ideas I'm sure he would have abhorred!

I actually disagree that he would have abhorred them. They're just the application of his principles to groups other than class.
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Why on earth shouldn't it be flaunted ? who are you the flag Police ?

Because "us and them" is not a useful, healthy or good way to look at the world when it leads to flaunting and denigrating others, instead of just being proud of who we are.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just a thought..if one goes to France, the tricolour is to be seen flying from the Mairie in even the smallest villages. If such a proposal was made in England, i can foresee a bit of a furore. I wouldn't see an issue in Wales, even though I am not a Nationalist (ie a PC supporter) it would give me no problem.

When last we were in Cornwall, we noticed the black and white flag of Cornwall flying from many private residences in many areas.

 

[Steveman]

Just a thought..if one goes to France, the tricolour is to be seen flying from the Mairie in even the smallest villages. If such a proposal was made in England, i can foresee a bit of a furore. I wouldn't see an issue in Wales, even though I am not a Nationalist (ie a PC supporter) it would give me no problem.

You're saying you can fly a Welsh flag as that's fine but if an Englishman flies a flag of Saint George that is not acceptable as it will cause a "furore" which is an outbreak of public anger.
Who exactly are you talking about who will cause all this trouble ?