• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Why is London the most congested city in Europe?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ghostbus

On Moderation
Joined
17 Sep 2024
Messages
331
Location
England
According to this Guardian report today, London is the most congested city in Europe.


Much like its gridlocked traffic, London’s position as the most congested city in Europe has remained unmoved, with it coming top of the list ahead of Paris and Dublin.

Drivers in the capital spent an average 101 hours sitting in traffic last year, a 2% increase from the previous year, according to the transport analytics company Inrix.

There has been a consistent increase in congestion in the city in recent years, from 97 hours in 2022 to 99 hours in 2023.

I was struck by how light it is on actual explanations:
The A40 Westway in London was judged the most congested road in the UK, with 5pm-6pm being its worst time.

Behind London was its Eurostar-connected neighbour Paris, with 97 hours of delays, followed by Dublin in third place with 81 hours.
Bob Pishue, Inrix transportation analyst and author of the report, said: “While the UK did see a slight increase in congestion again this year, overall congestion has remained steady.

“Roadworks in key corridors such as the M25 Wisley interchange caused considerable traffic on a main artery into the capital.
Inrix said London contained most of the worst corridors for traffic delays in the UK because of the “concentration of population, employment and economic activity”.

I'm pretty sure anyone could have come up with the fact London packs a lot into a small space as the reason. But since that hardly happened overnight, you'd have assumed London’s public transport system would have evolved to cope with that. London can't be, physically, the densest city in Europe, surely.

Other than that, surprisingly there's the implication it's down to roadworks on a single M25 junction backlogging commuter traffic to the extent it affects a large enough chunk of London's road network to become statistically relevant, as a specifc cause.

So is that the truth? Rather than something more obvious and oft-said, namely London is simply anti-car, could the reason be that either the outer London network and the commuter railway network is insufficent to meet demand? And while busy, the other modes suffice for their notional purpose, such as buses, tubes, tram/DLR and suburban rail moving London residents in their daily commuting needs.

The recent yearly rises do however seem to bolster the narrative that efforts to shift available road space away from cars to buses, cyclists and pedestrians, was a mistake. The point being to make it harder to drive so people actually switch to public transport, hopefully trains, as the mode with the most potential for short term improvement.

The tube being at capacity and other modes being less relevant due to their relatively small size. That being an error since there is insufficent capacity or attractiveness in the public transport system as a whole for that to force people out of their cars. Instead, people just take the hit and sit for longer in traffic, decreasing the attractiveness of buses and maybe even the efficiency of the perhaps overlooked but historically vital London taxis.

Notably, this increase is occurring even though Crossrail should have provided a step change in commuting capacity and the overall attractiveness of public transport. Although I guess therefore it could be said the real issue is London is too popular, with far too much of the UK's economic activity concentrated in the city region, such that adding more capacity (rather than making existing infrastructure more efficient or attractive) just fuels more demand, creating a vicious cycle. Or simply that Crossrail was too little too late.

Perhaps it's been a mistake to invest in buses? There having been significant increases in the fleet size, to no apparent benefit. Perhaps everyone who could make use of a London bus, already is, so this is having negligible impact on road use, other than ironically to slightly increase congestion?

The classic argument for a bus is that moves maybe fifty car's worth of people in the space of just three. But if people weren't literally being left behind in large numbers at peak times, you rapidly reach a point of limited returns by adding more large, slow, heavy, frequently stopping vehicles. There doesn't seem to have been a drive to create more routes rather than simply increase capacity on exiting ones, so perhaps that's the problem?

Maybe that means the focus should be on better coaches on key commuter routes? Notably, coaches are the last remaining mode whose provision is tied to profitability and set their own routes and schedules. At least this might mean SuperLoop was an inspired decision, with massive benefits for little extra investment. Or maybe just the right thing but in the wrong place, going round and round rather than in and out. Something it might not be able to do effectively due to ..... congestion.

Maybe passengers aren't the issue at all? Maybe it's freight? The movement of parcels, goods, foodstuffs, even industrial supplies, in slow, large, frequently stopping vehicles. Rather than anti-car, maybe London needs to be anti-van and anti-truck? More than it already is. But in the same way it approaches cars, namely provide the alternative capacity needed before setting up the barriers to road haulage. Outside the box thinking of the sort we perhaps haven't seen enough of in London.

I think perhaps the answer lies far from London, counterintuitively. Maybe even not that far. Improve transport and infrastructure not to improve connections to London, but with the goal of making it attractive for businesses to relocate away from the London area. Away from the A3 or the A40. That would necessarily require the diversion of funding away from the capital, since there is no new money yet.

Simply improving the pace of change when it comes to regional bus reform, national rail reform, and critical road improvements in the provinces, might oddly help London. Things do seem to be moving rather slowly, with the immediate focus instead being on the NHS and seemingly not much else, given changes in the NHS will take years to manifest in measurable benefits. But surely transport is even harder to impact quickly unless you move fast. Worryingly, there is this looming issue from the same report that could severely impact growth aspirations:
Interestingly it was cities outside of the capital that saw the greatest increase in congestion, with Manchester seeing a large increase, up 13%
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

stuu

Established Member
Joined
2 Sep 2011
Messages
3,774
It's interesting in that London has very little in the way of high-capacity road infrastructure, especially south of the river. Paris has loads, and yet has similar levels of congestion.

I would suggest that the sheer scale of the cities is the common factor - distances within the urban areas are longer than elsewhere, with more nodes to pass through, so more chance of delays

Also I would imagine that the volume of delivery vehicles is behind some of the rise in congestion everywhere
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,760
Location
Nottingham
Going by the quote, this is all about the amount of time drivers spend stuck in traffic. This is a totally one-sided view and certainly should not be used as the basis for planning future transport.

How easy it is to move around the city, considering also the use of public transport, is a different question. It's entirely possible (and having seen the transport provision in Dublin I believe probable) that Londoners can travel more easily around their city by bus and Tube than Dubliners. And Paris has pursued a deliberate policy of restricting access by car.

London has more inherent limitations on roadspace than Paris, but probably fewer than Dublin. As it's essentially impossible to build new roads in the urban area, the existing space needs to be shared. Using car journey times as the only metric would suggest the re-allocation of that space away from buses and active travel and towards the private motorist. This would be a disaster for overall mobility and might not even work on its own terms, considering that improvements for drivers just encourage more people to drive, who will probably just get stuck in congestion on unimproved roads nearby.
 

Islineclear3_1

Established Member
Joined
24 Apr 2014
Messages
6,594
Location
PTSO or platform depending on the weather
I think the introduction of 20mph zones on some of the main arterial roads into London contribute to/or make congestion worse as well with the general slowing down and stifling of free flowing traffic in some areas. - especially southeast London
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,959
Location
UK
I don't think any study has ever come to a conclusion other than building more lanes/roads just leads to more traffic congestion. The only solution, as much as people don't want to accept it, is getting people to drive less. Not stop driving entirely, and certainly those that do should be using an EV, but simply using other solutions.

That could be smaller vehicles that can get around in tight streets more easily (parking is one reason some streets end up with huge delays as they effectively become single lane and cause knock-on effects to surrounding streets), more use of cargo bikes, more dedicated parking for delivery drivers (accepting that they're now a thing, so let's have more bays reserved for them so they don't block roads) and improve cycling infrastructure, buses, trains, tubes etc.

Keeping roads clear in bad weather (from leaf fall season to snow/ice) will also help as things can really snarl up in the autumn and winter, ensure drains are cleared to get rid of all the flooding issues and so on and so on.

20mph zones seem to have made parts of London a lot safer for local residents, cyclists, pedestrians (including children) so I don't think this a bad thing. I do think non residential streets could remain at 30 or even 40mph, perhaps with variable speed limit signs, and you can make traffic lights more intelligent to better phase vehicles (many lights are intelligent but have faulty sensors so they're actually running in dumb 'failsafe' mode that helps nobody).

If so many people are coming in to London for work, what about park and ride schemes? When they close the car park at Cockfosters to build flats, a LOT of people coming in from outside London will no longer be able to. Will they park further out and use the train or decide to drive in? Driving into London to me seems insane after I did it for years (watching it get progressively worse year after year, as well as more expensive) but all of the things I've mentioned - and more - are all connected and need to be looked at rather than knee-jerk reactions like 'build more roads and increase the speed limit'.
 

Crithylum

Member
Joined
21 May 2024
Messages
356
Location
London Borough of Ealing
I think the introduction of 20mph zones on some of the main arterial roads into London contribute to/or make congestion worse as well with the general slowing down and stifling of free flowing traffic in some areas. - especially southeast London
No it hasn’t. If you are stuck in congestion the speed limit is irrelevant as it cannot be reached.
 

Ghostbus

On Moderation
Joined
17 Sep 2024
Messages
331
Location
England
Going by the quote, this is all about the amount of time drivers spend stuck in traffic. This is a totally one-sided view and certainly should not be used as the basis for planning future transport.
Presumably you'd at least be worried if bus passengers were also being delayed by increasing amounts?

There is a tipping point where traffic congestion is so bad that bus priority measures cease to be effective and peak period mitigation becomes burdensome, as you play an increasingly difficult strategy game of fill the gaps.

Perhaps London isn't there yet, but it will get there if these trends don't change. And they surely won't if planning decisions aren't trying to reverse the trend.

Even a temporary increase in the amount of time drivers are stuck in traffic to force people out of their cars onto well designed alternatives, with traffic delays then easing back to the benefit of all, would surely not be acceptable now we know the health effects of just one year's worth of emissions.

But that actually being the plan, and it's simply yet to kick in, with decarbonisation somehow mitigating the increased emissions until it does, is perhaps the most hopeful way to look at this news.

If so many people are coming in to London for work, what about park and ride schemes? When they close the car park at Cockfosters to build flats, a LOT of people coming in from outside London will no longer be able to. Will they park further out and use the train or decide to drive in?
If this report is suggesting the issue is commuting to employment in the non-central boroughs, then the problem might be the lack of a tube, tram or train station in those areas, or a more comprehensive bus offering. Since you're unlikely to want to park up on the edge of London, then take a rail mode, then finally a bus.

Is SuperLoop serving any of these kinds of places, for example? That could serve Park and Rides. Industrial estates and retail parks do tend to be heavily biased towards a road based cul-de-sac model. And unless TfL has done something about it, they tend to have at least some privately provided employee parking, and of course customer parking too.
Driving into London to me seems insane
I think most people would agree. But when the alternatives are no less insane, such as a longer journey time but with changes and not just sharing your personal space but effectively entering romantic relationships as the Victorians would have defined them, what's a lunatic supposed to do? Move to the provinces seems the only solution. Or working from home of course.

Worth noting that sitting in traffic in an electric car, while not ideal, at least isn't costing you any money, and can be perfectly pleasant if you're already basically committed to working all day anyway. Maybe even a chance to destress and collect your thoughts. You're even better off when it comes to the "congestion" charge (as most understand it), paying a mere £15 rather than £27.50, although that is at least coming to an end next Christmas apparently.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,959
Location
UK
At least with an EV, as you say, being stuck in traffic is using almost no power and you're not polluting - just adding to congestion. If you were able to charge it with renewables, even better.

Given the cost of EVs (even though prices are falling year on year) it does seem smaller cars are going to become more popular, so less giant SUVs and pick-ups might help.

But people with cars need places to park and this is a big issue in central London (as well as the cost) but I suspect the bigger issues are in the outer zones and towards the suburbs. In zone 1, you can almost certainly get around on public transport very easily - or use a taxi.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,760
Location
Nottingham
Presumably you'd at least be worried if bus passengers were also being delayed by increasing amounts?

There is a tipping point where traffic congestion is so bad that bus priority measures cease to be effective and peak period mitigation becomes burdensome, as you play an increasingly difficult strategy game of fill the gaps.

Perhaps London isn't there yet, but it will get there if these trends don't change. And they surely won't if planning decisions aren't trying to reverse the trend.
I agree congestion hurts bus passengers, and the mostly narrow streets of central London limit the amount of bus priority.

But if you want to speed up existing volumes of general traffic including buses, how is that realistically achieved?

Far better to limit the amount of other traffic and provide most people with a decent alternative. That was the logic behind the congestion charge in the Livingstone era, where a lot of the money raised was used to improve bus services. But it's rather fallen by the wayside with increased exemptions and the boom in private hire vehicles.
 

LUYMun

Established Member
Joined
15 Jul 2018
Messages
1,391
Location
Cancelled
I agree congestion hurts bus passengers, and the mostly narrow streets of central London limit the amount of bus priority.

But if you want to speed up existing volumes of general traffic including buses, how is that realistically achieved?

Far better to limit the amount of other traffic and provide most people with a decent alternative. That was the logic behind the congestion charge in the Livingstone era, where a lot of the money raised was used to improve bus services. But it's rather fallen by the wayside with increased exemptions and the boom in private hire vehicles.
For one, not drastically changing transport policy in the 20 years since establishing a coherent and joined-up network of bus priority measures by ripping up what's left of them for cycle lanes that are mostly empty.
 

Meerkat

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2018
Messages
9,276
London can't be, physically, the densest city in Europe, surely.
Could the problem actually be the lack of density? You don’t have to go far out the centre to get huge areas of houses, rather than flats/mansion blocks. Lower density means public transport is less attractive and parking is easier.
No it hasn’t. If you are stuck in congestion the speed limit is irrelevant as it cannot be reached.
But if the speed limit creates the congestion……
 

Crithylum

Member
Joined
21 May 2024
Messages
356
Location
London Borough of Ealing
But if the speed limit creates the congestion……
If one driver pulls out, and the others have to slow down, then we are likely already below 20mph. If somehow an amount of traffic such that 30mph would be congestion free, and 20 would not, this minor disruption would flip the system into 20mph congestion, despite a 30 speed limit. To summarise, assuming a higher speed had a higher capacity, this would be an unstable state as any disruption could flip it in to the lower capacity low speed state.

The braking distance at 30mph is over double 20, so assuming drivers are following a safe distance behind the vehicle in front, there is little if any capacity benefit in non-motorway environments. Drivers using mobile phones likely has a much greater impact on capacity than any speed limit changes.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
17,646
Location
Isle of Man
I think the introduction of 20mph zones on some of the main arterial roads into London contribute to/or make congestion worse
The evidence is actually the opposite- lower speed limits actually reduce congestion. Because everything is moving more slowly in the first place you actually manage traffic flow better. Think of how you pour Coca-Cola (other fizzy drinks are available) into a glass; do it too quickly and everything just foams over the side and you end up taking longer to pour your drink. The same fluid dynamics apply to traffic and, counter-intuitively, having a lower approach speed to a busy junction allows everything to clear that junction more quickly.

Japanese researchers showed that traffic can very easily generate 'shockwave' traffic jams, where one car slows a bit and all the cars behind it progressively slow a bit more until, way back down the road, everything comes to a complete standstill for no apparent reason. The same applies on urban roads and reduced speeds also reduce the impact of that shockwave; conversely, higher speeds increase the impact of that shockwave. The video of it is fascinating:

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

If one driver pulls out, and the others have to slow down, then we are likely already below 20mph. If somehow an amount of traffic such that 30mph would be congestion free, and 20 would not, this minor disruption would flip the system into 20mph congestion, despite a 30 speed limit.
You beat me to it, that's exactly what the Japanese researchers proved in 2008.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

a coherent and joined-up network of bus priority measures by ripping up what's left of them for cycle lanes that are mostly empty.
There were more km of bus lanes in 2021 than there were in 2011.


1736267472466.png
Image shows a screenshot of the table from the above FOI request.
 
Last edited:

E27007

Member
Joined
25 May 2018
Messages
1,044
The population of London fell post-WW2 to around 6 million in the mid-1980s, then rose to nearly 9 million.
A population of 6 million was bearable for congestion, I used to commute from Tower Bridge to Hounslow by car, and visit friends in North London in the mid-week evening, ,as the population rose, London become intolerable as a place to live, I gave up driving and used public transport (let someone ellse have the stress). I retired in 2020moved to a village in Yorkshire, life is wonderful, congestion is so low even the local bus covers 7 miles in 20 minutes,
It is not Rocket Science, London is congested simply due to too many people in a limited area.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,760
Location
Nottingham
London is congested simply due to too many people in a limited area.
It's only too many if you expect all of them to be able to drive freely. Increased urban density makes it difficult to avoid traffic congestion but easier to cater for demand with public transport. The result is that urban living is probably more sustainable than rural.
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
11,264
Location
West Wiltshire
I think the introduction of 20mph zones on some of the main arterial roads into London contribute to/or make congestion worse as well with the general slowing down and stifling of free flowing traffic in some areas. - especially southeast London
No, speed limits are different

The main reason for much increased congestion is the closing of side turnings, and removal of left turn filter lanes at traffic lights. What it has done is divert the proportion of traffic that used to bypass the traffic lights into adding and lengthening queues at traffic lights. In some cases the longer queues now extend back to the previous junction, so one bit of congestion now affects another bit of road. Too many of these in a area and you get a sort of gridlock.

Blocking the side turnings has the effect of moving traffic, so instead of spreading it around into multiple roads, it forces it to all take a single road which becomes congested. Rather ironically many of the roads where traffic has been moved to are bus routes, so now buses are lots slower because they are on more congested routes. Thats why TfL buses now lose about £2m per day (around £700m per year).
 

SynthD

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2020
Messages
2,059
Location
UK
Presumably you'd at least be worried if bus passengers were also being delayed by increasing amounts?
Yes. But if there are bus lanes, which it seems are growing, they would not be delayed as much. Preferential treatment of public transport makes the express routes.
Thats why TfL buses now lose about £2m per day (around £700m per year).
The bus part of TfL has long been considerably loss making. It’s not ironic that LTNs and other anti rat running measures have brought more traffic to where buses are, it’s intentional that they are both on the through route. I understand what filter lanes are, but not the closing of side turnings, what are they?
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
11,264
Location
West Wiltshire
They were costing around that much 20 years ago, so that's an improvement in real terms
Subsequently looked up the figures

From latest published TfL Finance report (covering 8 of 13 periods) page 18 or page 53 of pack

bus revenue £963, costs £1485m
13/8 times for annual equivalent £1565m and £2413m
so likely to lose £848m for year or £2.32m per day

Interestingly page 38 shows 1151m bus passengers for 8 periods
which suggests passengers averaging only £1.19 fares each (even after apportioning travelcards, oyster and reimbursing bus buses)

Highlights how congestion makes buses poor value


 

AlastairFraser

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2018
Messages
4,188
According to this Guardian report today, London is the most congested city in Europe.




I was struck by how light it is on actual explanations:




I'm pretty sure anyone could have come up with the fact London packs a lot into a small space as the reason. But since that hardly happened overnight, you'd have assumed London’s public transport system would have evolved to cope with that. London can't be, physically, the densest city in Europe, surely.

Other than that, surprisingly there's the implication it's down to roadworks on a single M25 junction backlogging commuter traffic to the extent it affects a large enough chunk of London's road network to become statistically relevant, as a specifc cause.

So is that the truth? Rather than something more obvious and oft-said, namely London is simply anti-car, could the reason be that either the outer London network and the commuter railway network is insufficent to meet demand? And while busy, the other modes suffice for their notional purpose, such as buses, tubes, tram/DLR and suburban rail moving London residents in their daily commuting needs.

The recent yearly rises do however seem to bolster the narrative that efforts to shift available road space away from cars to buses, cyclists and pedestrians, was a mistake. The point being to make it harder to drive so people actually switch to public transport, hopefully trains, as the mode with the most potential for short term improvement.

The tube being at capacity and other modes being less relevant due to their relatively small size. That being an error since there is insufficent capacity or attractiveness in the public transport system as a whole for that to force people out of their cars. Instead, people just take the hit and sit for longer in traffic, decreasing the attractiveness of buses and maybe even the efficiency of the perhaps overlooked but historically vital London taxis.

Notably, this increase is occurring even though Crossrail should have provided a step change in commuting capacity and the overall attractiveness of public transport. Although I guess therefore it could be said the real issue is London is too popular, with far too much of the UK's economic activity concentrated in the city region, such that adding more capacity (rather than making existing infrastructure more efficient or attractive) just fuels more demand, creating a vicious cycle. Or simply that Crossrail was too little too late.

Perhaps it's been a mistake to invest in buses? There having been significant increases in the fleet size, to no apparent benefit. Perhaps everyone who could make use of a London bus, already is, so this is having negligible impact on road use, other than ironically to slightly increase congestion?

The classic argument for a bus is that moves maybe fifty car's worth of people in the space of just three. But if people weren't literally being left behind in large numbers at peak times, you rapidly reach a point of limited returns by adding more large, slow, heavy, frequently stopping vehicles. There doesn't seem to have been a drive to create more routes rather than simply increase capacity on exiting ones, so perhaps that's the problem?

Maybe that means the focus should be on better coaches on key commuter routes? Notably, coaches are the last remaining mode whose provision is tied to profitability and set their own routes and schedules. At least this might mean SuperLoop was an inspired decision, with massive benefits for little extra investment. Or maybe just the right thing but in the wrong place, going round and round rather than in and out. Something it might not be able to do effectively due to ..... congestion.

Maybe passengers aren't the issue at all? Maybe it's freight? The movement of parcels, goods, foodstuffs, even industrial supplies, in slow, large, frequently stopping vehicles. Rather than anti-car, maybe London needs to be anti-van and anti-truck? More than it already is. But in the same way it approaches cars, namely provide the alternative capacity needed before setting up the barriers to road haulage. Outside the box thinking of the sort we perhaps haven't seen enough of in London.

I think perhaps the answer lies far from London, counterintuitively. Maybe even not that far. Improve transport and infrastructure not to improve connections to London, but with the goal of making it attractive for businesses to relocate away from the London area. Away from the A3 or the A40. That would necessarily require the diversion of funding away from the capital, since there is no new money yet.

Simply improving the pace of change when it comes to regional bus reform, national rail reform, and critical road improvements in the provinces, might oddly help London. Things do seem to be moving rather slowly, with the immediate focus instead being on the NHS and seemingly not much else, given changes in the NHS will take years to manifest in measurable benefits. But surely transport is even harder to impact quickly unless you move fast. Worryingly, there is this looming issue from the same report that could severely impact growth aspirations:
There are a few cultural factors in certain areas of London too.
For example, large cars are particularly popular status symbols in a lot of South Asian communities, so in dense urban areas where they are a majority (like Southall in Ealing borough, or East Ham in Newham), congestion may be significantly worse than other places of a similar density due to demographics.

This is not to say that this is the sole cause of congestion, but when a group tends to have an inbuilt preference for larger cars as status symbols, it can accentuate a lot of the more major factors underlying the congestion problem.
 

Meerkat

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2018
Messages
9,276
If one driver pulls out, and the others have to slow down, then we are likely already below 20mph. If somehow an amount of traffic such that 30mph would be congestion free, and 20 would not, this minor disruption would flip the system into 20mph congestion, despite a 30 speed limit. To summarise, assuming a higher speed had a higher capacity, this would be an unstable state as any disruption could flip it in to the lower capacity low speed state.

The braking distance at 30mph is over double 20, so assuming drivers are following a safe distance behind the vehicle in front, there is little if any capacity benefit in non-motorway environments. Drivers using mobile phones likely has a much greater impact on capacity than any speed limit changes.
Anecdata but I have found junctions are harder with lower speed limits - the traffic doesn’t bunch so there are fewer gaps to cross/pull out. And any obstructions are worse - a road round here where you have to pull out round parked cars is much worse now it’s a 20.
 

Sad Sprinter

Established Member
Joined
5 Jun 2017
Messages
3,186
Location
Way on down South London town
I think part of the problem is the lack of express metros in London. We’ve only just got Crossrail, but the Elizabeth Line probably should have been built after the Second World War, with successive Crossrails built during the latter 20th century/early 21st.

There’s also a large amount of junctions that would work far much better as interchange stations. South London is full of them, but so is west.

The lack of direct trains from Brixton to Peckham is a good example of forcing people to take inefficient rail routings and concentrate over specific corridors or use the private car.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,377
The tube being at capacity and other modes being less relevant due to their relatively small size. That being an error since there is insufficent capacity or attractiveness in the public transport system as a whole for that to force people out of their cars. Instead, people just take the hit and sit for longer in traffic, decreasing the attractiveness of buses and maybe even the efficiency of the perhaps overlooked but historically vital London taxis.

Notably, this increase is occurring even though Crossrail should have provided a step change in commuting capacity and the overall attractiveness of public transport. Although I guess therefore it could be said the real issue is London is too popular, with far too much of the UK's economic activity concentrated in the city region, such that adding more capacity (rather than making existing infrastructure more efficient or attractive) just fuels more demand, creating a vicious cycle. Or simply that Crossrail was too little too late.
I think it is telling that the most congested road given is the Westway.

Crossrail might be impressive compared to the extraordinarily cramped tube system, but its performance at the western end is currently crippled by the timetabling choices on the Great Western Main Line.

The reason that Crossrail trains currently terminate en-masse at Paddington and are unable to relieve the traffic on the Westway to a greater degree is to allow freight trains loaded with crushed rock to run along the GWML from the Mendips.

Today's Mendip Hills quarry industry only really exists because the railfreight industry (which pays essentially nothing for infrastructure) provides very cheap haulage. If those trains ceased to run there would be little additional road freight because it would never be competitive over that distance. Either underground quarries would open closer to London as the BGS has proposed previously, or aggregates would be shipped from different areas over different axes (possibly involving sea shipping).


If Crossrail had much more control of the GWML Relief lines, it could probably move far more passengers in west london and relieve this congestion.
I certainly think that "pie slice" of the London commuter system (GWML and Chiltern) is one of the weaker ones in public transport terms
 
Last edited:

PG

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
3,470
Location
at the end of the high and low roads
Quarries would open closer to London as the BGS has proposed previously, likely using underground mining techniques.
I assume that is the British Geological Survey rather than the British Geriatrics Society?!!

Surely the opening of quarries closer to London would be dependent upon councils granting planning permission? So by no means a given?

Incidentally since the December timetable change some stone trains are running via the Coastway West route instead of the GWML.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,377
I assume that is the British Geological Survey rather than the British Geriatrics Society?!!
Yes, they have done studies at various times about trying to reduce carbon emissions by producing aggregates closer to the users.

Surely the opening of quarries closer to London would be dependent upon councils granting planning permission? So by no means a given?
Yes, but even if they don't, it is very doubtful that road hauling aggregates from the Mendips to London would be able to compete with alternatives.
If nothing else, it would probably lose out to sea shipping the Mendips aggregates around Cornwall to London and the South East!

EDIT:
Incidentally since the December timetable change some stone trains are running via the Coastway West route instead of the GWML.

If that route is practical, that does raise even more questions on whether the timetabling choices on the GWML are optimal.
 
Last edited:

Nottingham59

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2019
Messages
3,353
Location
Nottingham
that does raise even more questions on whether the timetabling choices on the GWML are optimal.
Stone trains should run at night. It's ridiculous that low value freight is allowed to eat up day time capacity on the rail network.
 

telstarbox

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
6,387
Location
Wennington Crossovers
The Mayoral target is 80% of journeys by walking, cycling or public transport by 2041. Major road building isn't going to happen with the exception of the Silvertown Tunnel.
 

Dr Hoo

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2015
Messages
5,714
Location
Hope Valley
Stone trains should run at night. It's ridiculous that low value freight is allowed to eat up day time capacity on the rail network.
It is only possible to keep movement costs low by utilising resources (wagons and locomotives) continuously. Even back in the 1980s Mendip stone trains would get two round trips in a day over feasible distances.
For a fundamentally low value commodity like stone, where transport over significant distances is a major component of the delivered price, un-necessarily increased costs will go directly into the cost and price of whatever is being built - HS2, housing in London, hospitals, schools, etc..
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,377
It is only possible to keep movement costs low by utilising resources (wagons and locomotives) continuously. Even back in the 1980s Mendip stone trains would get two round trips in a day over feasible distances.
For a fundamentally low value commodity like stone, where transport over significant distances is a major component of the delivered price, un-necessarily increased costs will go directly into the cost and price of whatever is being built - HS2, housing in London, hospitals, schools, etc..
The apparent costs are only low because a huge portion of the costs of moving aggregates by rail are already born by the state.

Enormously valuable paths on a highly trafficked main line in a highly congested part of london are provided to stone trains for effectively nothing.
The mendip-london rail traffic should not exist (at least not in daytime), it is maintained only by indirect subsidies, which distort the aggregates market.

Sure, the cost of aggregate would go up, but the cost rises would be balanced out by reduced public spending on said subsidies.

Society is currently paying to move this stone by rail (during the day), to the serious detriment of other traffic, whether this cost is paid directly on the cost of aggregate, or hidden in a line item of the railway budget.

EDIT:

Put another way, the cost to the state to pay for additional rolling stock, allowing one night-time round trip per day, is almost certainly less than the cost to the state of the status quo.
It's just that that cost would not be easily hidden away in the Network Grant.

To return to the topic, buying extra locomotives and extra wagons would allow Crossrail to run 20 trains per hour into West London. That would take a huge chunk out of the congestion on the Westway and surrounding roads.
 
Last edited:

DM352

Member
Joined
9 Oct 2019
Messages
290
Location
White north
Some quick random thoughts with roads:
  1. Ringways were never built - Paris got one downtown. Dublin has M50
  2. Speed limits are mostly 20 and main feeder roads like the A40/A3/A2 have slower speed limits than when new.
  3. Road improvements for free flow like the A40 and North Circular were abandoned after compulsory purchase and some schemes watered down like the Coulsdon A23.
  4. Buses are slower even with bus lanes. I know it is in part down to safety but remember a Leyland Titan or Metrobus being able to leave a stop as doors were closing (no buzzer delays disabling power) and doing up to 40 mph along London bridge!

Saying all that, I do get also an extra lane brings more cars.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top