• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Why is laying new track so expensive?

Status
Not open for further replies.

SF-02

Member
Joined
26 Oct 2008
Messages
477
I use the severn beach line in Bristol quite regularly and the service is currently only every 40 mins due to a single track on most of the line. The track was made a single line in the 1960s, but all the space to relay is available, and even most of the old platforms are still there, yet the costs I've seen quoted for relaying a few miles of track just seem enormous (sorry i don't have it to hand at the mo). The line is isolated as well and doesn't cross any other routes, so the need for expensive new junctions doesn't seem to be an issue. I dont know much about the railway but the costs seem huge compared to the job and it prevents improving the line and increasing frequency which is a great shame. Just why is it so expensive?

p.s I believe the figures I saw excluded running costs and were just upfront contruction as well. Bristol is crying out for a better rail network, and anything other than the awful bus service there currently.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
19,662
Double the track is double the signalling, double the maintenance and with a line like the Severn Beach the benefit wont outweigh the costs.
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
21,175
Location
0035
With regards to the line in question, you must be talking about the plan to relay the second track between the end of the Clifton loop and Montpelier. It would require changes to signalling, shifting the existing track to one side in parts, structural work (the viaduct over the Cheltenham Road plus road bridges at Redland), and reopening two platforms with all associated work involved.

Perhaps the real question should be "why is Network Rail so inefficient?"

Whether it'll ever go ahead - I have every belief it will, although it will be funded locally, and I don't see it happening in the next 10 years.

As a side point, are you a member of, or have you heard of Friends of Suburban Bristol Railways - http://www.fosbr.org.uk?
 

Hydro

Established Member
Joined
5 Mar 2007
Messages
2,204
'Cos of the mark up in the Unipart Rail catalogue ;)
 

SF-02

Member
Joined
26 Oct 2008
Messages
477
With regards to the line in question, you must be talking about the plan to relay the second track between the end of the Clifton loop and Montpelier. It would require changes to signalling, shifting the existing track to one side in parts, structural work (the viaduct over the Cheltenham Road plus road bridges at Redland), and reopening two platforms with all associated work involved.

Yep that's the plan. I can understand the structural work costing a lot. Would that be one of the biggest expenses of putting down track then? I wouldn't have thought putting in some pre-fab platforms and a bridge at stations, and a basic signalling system would cost that much. Maybe it does I have no idea.

Perhaps the real question should be "why is Network Rail so inefficient?"

Indeed. How does Britain compare to other European countries when it comes to the cost of putting in new lines?

As a side point, are you a member of, or have you heard of Friends of Suburban Bristol Railways - http://www.fosbr.org.uk?

Yeah I used to work in a library and emailed asking for some postcards for a campaign they were running (may have been about the severn beach I can't remember) and they never sent them despite saying they would!
 

pinkpanther

Member
Joined
10 Jul 2009
Messages
134
Location
Bournemouth
According to one of our local heritage groups secondhand track costs something like £25/foot for trackwork and fittings alone, and a staggering £6,000 for a single point and the associated mechanisms.

You can bet that with new materials to mainline standards the costs will be far higher - and that's without even getting started on signalling or labour costs.

Infrastructure is expensive.
 
Last edited:

pfield69

New Member
Joined
25 Oct 2009
Messages
1
Why are trains soooo expensive?

I believe its down to 2 main reasons
1. Lack of investment for over 30 years
2. Excessive Labour costs.

Regardless of what the unions would have you believe, driving a train should be classed as a semi-skilled job. They have the simpilest of driving jobs. Much easier then say a tanker driver. Yet they earns approx £35k flat but they can easily get over £50k. Is it due to weak management?

Really I don't care! I just can't believe driving my 18mpg car is cheaper then a train ticket (off peak). Now think that I can have five people easily in my car. In alot of cases its much quicker as well.

If the government is serious about polution then they need to reduce railfares (& bus fares). Example woking - gillinham £48ea return OR 180 mile @ 18mpg (£1/l) = £45. If I take the family train = £192, car = £45!!<D
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
19,662
Can, Worms, Opened.

So a tanker driver is responsible for potentially hundreds of passengers ?? does his tanker take several hundred yards to stop from speed, can it move out of the way of an impending obstacle ?? Either you are trolling or not expecting a bit of a backlash....
 

asylumxl

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2009
Messages
4,260
Location
Hiding in your shadow
Really I don't care! I just can't believe driving my 18mpg car is cheaper then a train ticket (off peak). Now think that I can have five people easily in my car. In alot of cases its much quicker as well.

If the government is serious about polution then they need to reduce railfares (& bus fares). Example woking - gillinham £48ea return OR 180 mile @ 18mpg (£1/l) = £45. If I take the family train = £192, car = £45!!<D

You've not included:

  • The cost of the car itself
  • The cost of road tax
  • The cost of insurance
  • The cost of maintenance

You've only looked at the price of fuel, which is useless without all of the above. I wonder what works out cheaper then :D.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,313
Location
Yorks
I think it's interesting the hoops that governments have to jump through just to get public services off of it's books. I suspect that the country ends up paying through the nose for a lot more things than the railway just to satisfy this tennet of economic orthodoxy.
 

Old Timer

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
3,702
Location
On a plane somewhere at 35,000
Part of the reason why track renewals is so expensive is the management structure that Network Rail impose upon the Renewals Contractors.

Pretty much all of this structure is wholly unnecessary and costs a lot of money.

In addition many of the people who are in roles within that organisation know little if anything about track renewals and add no value.

A good analogy would be to compare track renewals with say a wholesale redecoration of your house.

Now let us say you have obtained a price from a painter and decorator. The best thing would be to go on holiday would it not, and let him get on with it in the time he said and using the materials you agreed.

Now take the same process with Network Rail involved. You would in effect be the Network Rail Maintenance Engineer

Firstly you would have to tell a group of people (Project Management team) what you needed in some detail. They would take your requirements and walk around the house with you.

They would require any electrical sockets, switches, etc to be removed but this would have to be done by someone else.

Water would need to be turned off and again this would be a separate contract.

Gas would need to be turned off and again this would be a separate contract.

Someone would be brought in to write out the contract requirements.

They would then put out enquiries to the various different Contractors. These would require that the Contractor uses materials which would be provided to them. The Contract would also require that each Contractor engaged a set of staff who would provide ongoing information, statistics, and progress reports. In addition there would be a need to attend a variety of meetings on a regular basis.

The Contract would also specify that the Project Management team would impose a number of staff who would supervise and oversee what each Contractor is doing. Their accommodation would be provided by the Contractor, who would also have to provide dedicated people to work with their opposite numbers.

No Contractor would be permitted to talk to the other, all communications going through the Project Team.

Each Contractor would be required to supply a price based upon a programme that did not show what the others were doing.

They would not allow any Contractor to put in a price for the complete job because they dont believe that it would be cheaper.

They would require each Contractor tendering to provide a whole raft of information which would need to be supplied in a format specified by them. This would include information on training and competency and would require a whole series of hurdles to be leapt. There would be re-assurances that the Contract would be let on the basis if the best overall tender, but this would be lies.

At this stage a number of Contractors would decide to pull out because it was costing too much to provide all this information and supply it in the form instructed, even though pretty much all of it was already available.

The Project Team would then require the Contractors to attend to give a presentation on how they would do the job. This would be attended by a variety of people who had no knowledge of the work being done.

Of course all these tenders would now be increased in price dramatically because of all this extra bureaucracy.

Despite what had been said, the cheapest price would be the deciding factor, not any of the information that had been demanded, and the tender let on that basis irrespective of anything else. The phrase "value for money" would be much used.

When the Contracts were let the Project team would then set a start date and require that this was met. The start date would be arbitrary.

The Project team would demand detailed plans from everyone, and detailed information on how it was to be done.

They would require all sorts of information about the tools to be used and insist on seeing all sorts of certificates and invoices.

Inevitably the Contract will have been written badly and will have missed things out and made errors of material fact.

The Contractor will now point this out as these issues become apparant.

The Project Team will then accuse the Contractor of trying to make money, and demand detailed reports. Because they have no-one who understands it they will bring in consultants to oversee and check what the Contractor is saying.

The job will be stopped because of this.

The other Contractors will still turn up because noone has thought to tell them not to. They will submit a claim for payment for turning up. The Project Team will refuse and the whole issue will go to arbritration, where the Contractor will be found to have been in the right.

The Project Team will discover that their Consultant agrees with the first Contractor, so a Variation will be issued. The other Contractors will be required to resubmit prices for the job.

Because the Project Team are planning and managing how the work is done, it will be done slower and require more time and people than was priced.

A whole dispute will then develop when the final price is put in, and detailed explanations will be demanded to be supplied. The Contractors will charge extra for this because this is a cost not priced.

Eventually the job will be done.

There will be various claims and counterclaims and eventually the Contractors will agree to settle for 50% of the difference rather than go out of business.

Of course all this arguing will have extende the Project Team's time and involved a lot of additional costs.

These will be passed back to you as an add on to the final price for the job.

You will finally end up having to stump up considerably more than if you had gone direct and looked after it. You will probably not be much impressed as the cheapest not the best Contractors had got the job and to save money they had brought in as cheap a labour as they could. This will be reflected in the quality of the job.

You will end up not happy with the quality of the paint and paper, which has cost more to put up. You will also find that because the cheapest of the cheap wallpaper paste has been used, it will start to peel of after a few years and the whole sequence will start all over again.

Of course two things will have happened. One is that a number of Contractors will refuse to work for you, and second, the prices tendered will have gone up considerably because the last Contractor lost money and now you are considered high risk and the Contractors bankers require additional insurance to be taken out.

It is you who will end up paying because noone will tender to you unless you do.

Welcome to Infrastructure (track) renewals under Network Rail.
 
Last edited:

jas_sl

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2009
Messages
47
Following on from this, I was going to ask on a new thread about infrastructure costs in general.

Why is it I've read many times that the cost of implementing anything, be it tunnels, tracks, stations, singalling etc is so much more expensive now than, say, 30 years ago?

Often in feasability reports (e.g. East-West rail) they say something to the effect of "infrastrucutre costs have grown considerably since last evaulated".

What is increasing? Labour costs? Building standards? Lack of competition meaning rip off fees?

I would have thought costs would decrease seeing the advances in tunneling technology and alike.
 

SouthEastern-465

Established Member
Joined
24 May 2009
Messages
1,660
Location
Greater London
Why are trains soooo expensive?

I believe its down to 2 main reasons
1. Lack of investment for over 30 years
2. Excessive Labour costs.

Regardless of what the unions would have you believe, driving a train should be classed as a semi-skilled job. They have the simpilest of driving jobs. Much easier then say a tanker driver. Yet they earns approx £35k flat but they can easily get over £50k. Is it due to weak management?

Really I don't care! I just can't believe driving my 18mpg car is cheaper then a train ticket (off peak). Now think that I can have five people easily in my car. In alot of cases its much quicker as well.

If the government is serious about polution then they need to reduce railfares (& bus fares). Example woking - gillinham £48ea return OR 180 mile @ 18mpg (£1/l) = £45. If I take the family train = £192, car = £45!!<D

Never heard such crap in my life.

You have no experience of driving a train so how would you know what it involves? easy mode on MSTS maybe?

I would say a train is one of the most complicated to drive not one of the easiest.
 

Old Timer

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
3,702
Location
On a plane somewhere at 35,000
Following on from this, I was going to ask on a new thread about infrastructure costs in general.

Why is it I've read many times that the cost of implementing anything, be it tunnels, tracks, stations, singalling etc is so much more expensive now than, say, 30 years ago?

Often in feasability reports (e.g. East-West rail) they say something to the effect of "infrastrucutre costs have grown considerably since last evaulated".

What is increasing? Labour costs? Building standards? Lack of competition meaning rip off fees?

I would have thought costs would decrease seeing the advances in tunneling technology and alike.

In my view there are two constituent answers to that question.

The first is the increasing number of Regulations and "safety" requirements. For example every signal now requires a full work platform under Working at Height Regulations although with the most modern signals there is very little need to access the head these days.

Because of this the signal has to be much more robust.

The signal base has to be even bigger because construction design practices now require that the signal can withstand a once in 100 year Gale Force 10 wind, and the signal has to be treated as is it was a solid structure, just in case a piece of say polythene wraps around it :roll::roll::roll:

Added to that are incremental "factors of safety" (FOS) which are added onto one another, so (say) 100 becomes 100 = FOS 10% = 110, add say 30 = 110 = 30 = 140 + FOS (say) 10% = 140 = 14 = 154. On top of that Designers will round up figurs and put the own factor of safety on top as well.

If you take the latest Construction Design calculations and use them to compare to many of the existing structures you will find that every one will fail. What this means is that signals which have been in existence for years should fall down according to the calculations.

Not one senior S&T Engineer can ever recall a signal falling down of its own accord or being blown over. The signal used to be placed into a 12 inch (350mm) diameter concrete tube, between 6 and 9 feet (2/3m) deep in a hoe that had been dug out and backfilled.

We have never known one to have failed.

In addition the latest Railway Group Standards mandate that any change to a signal structure requires full compliance with the latest Standards. This normally means a complete replacement by a much bigger structure which then affects the Signal Sighting Standards, so the signal has to comply with these and the whole thing gets to be like a series of dominoes each knocking the other one.

The second reason is the projects organisation set up by Network Rail (Investment and Infrastructure) which has become its own massive bureaucracy and is unable to actually manage Projects so it then has to bring in the likes of Bechtel.

I&I have teams who write their own more detailed Standards and requirements which in many cases deliver nothing but give them a form of arse covering.

All these costs mount up and have to be paid before a single Contractor hits the ground. The approach then of course is to criticise the Contractor over price when he not only has to provide extra staff to deal with all the various "requirements" for information and copies of already supplied information, but also has to provide much more detailed documentation and attend presentations, as well supplying (sometimes) unnecessary detail, progress reports, etc, etc..

One final point is that the Contractual games played by NR mean that additional work or price changes to reflect inadequate or increased scopes of work will generally only end up being reimbursed after a long period of Contractual wrangling and then at normally about 40 to 50% of the cost incurred. Contractors thus now have to insure against this when working on NR contracts.

Contractors working in the Railway Industry generally add on abour 5% for profit. All other costs are directly attributable to working for Network Rail.

Other Industries are less demanding and have much higher profit margins 20 to 30% in some cases, without the massive risk that working for NR entails in all sorts of areas. Contractors are now exiting the marker for this reason. AMEC was the first, and Carillion does less business than it did and now only touches Projects work.

Contractors already know that they can get much better returns by investment in stocks and shares compared to working for NR.

All this of course gets overlooked by those who accuse Contractors of being the cause of high proces when in fact actual Contractor costs have been forced down on a year on year basis for several years now.

Track Renewals for example were due to be reduced by 5% per year over a 7 year period. Now that simplistically would have meant that by year 7 the price would only be 65% of year 1.

Take a look at the economics of that and you will realise that this isn't ever going to happen, and Contractors who did go some way to reducing costs found that they lost out after the 7 to 5 exercise forced on existing Contracts part way through (despite assurances this would not happen).

The successful Contractors were told that there would be further 15% reduction required over the remainder of the Contract term, even though prices and costs were / are going up, partly through the much bigger NR I&I organisation but also because of more detailed and stringent NR Standards which only apply to the contractors, not to NR.
 
Last edited:

43021HST

Established Member
Joined
11 Sep 2008
Messages
1,565
Location
Taunton
Part of the reason why track renewals is so expensive is the management structure that Network Rail impose upon the Renewals Contractors.

Pretty much all of this structure is wholly unnecessary and costs a lot of money.

In addition many of the people who are in roles within that organisation know little if anything about track renewals and add no value.

A good analogy would be to compare track renewals with say a wholesale redecoration of your house.

Now let us say you have obtained a price from a painter and decorator. The best thing would be to go on holiday would it not, and let him get on with it in the time he said and using the materials you agreed.

Now take the same process with Network Rail involved. You would in effect be the Network Rail Maintenance Engineer

Firstly you would have to tell a group of people (Project Management team) what you needed in some detail. They would take your requirements and walk around the house with you.

They would require any electrical sockets, switches, etc to be removed but this would have to be done by someone else.

Water would need to be turned off and again this would be a separate contract.

Gas would need to be turned off and again this would be a separate contract.

Someone would be brought in to write out the contract requirements.

They would then put out enquiries to the various different Contractors. These would require that the Contractor uses materials which would be provided to them. The Contract would also require that each Contractor engaged a set of staff who would provide ongoing information, statistics, and progress reports. In addition there would be a need to attend a variety of meetings on a regular basis.

The Contract would also specify that the Project Management team would impose a number of staff who would supervise and oversee what each Contractor is doing. Their accommodation would be provided by the Contractor, who would also have to provide dedicated people to work with their opposite numbers.

No Contractor would be permitted to talk to the other, all communications going through the Project Team.

Each Contractor would be required to supply a price based upon a programme that did not show what the others were doing.

They would not allow any Contractor to put in a price for the complete job because they dont believe that it would be cheaper.

They would require each Contractor tendering to provide a whole raft of information which would need to be supplied in a format specified by them. This would include information on training and competency and would require a whole series of hurdles to be leapt. There would be re-assurances that the Contract would be let on the basis if the best overall tender, but this would be lies.

At this stage a number of Contractors would decide to pull out because it was costing too much to provide all this information and supply it in the form instructed, even though pretty much all of it was already available.

The Project Team would then require the Contractors to attend to give a presentation on how they would do the job. This would be attended by a variety of people who had no knowledge of the work being done.

Of course all these tenders would now be increased in price dramatically because of all this extra bureaucracy.

Despite what had been said, the cheapest price would be the deciding factor, not any of the information that had been demanded, and the tender let on that basis irrespective of anything else. The phrase "value for money" would be much used.

When the Contracts were let the Project team would then set a start date and require that this was met. The start date would be arbitrary.

The Project team would demand detailed plans from everyone, and detailed information on how it was to be done.

They would require all sorts of information about the tools to be used and insist on seeing all sorts of certificates and invoices.

Inevitably the Contract will have been written badly and will have missed things out and made errors of material fact.

The Contractor will now point this out as these issues become apparant.

The Project Team will then accuse the Contractor of trying to make money, and demand detailed reports. Because they have no-one who understands it they will bring in consultants to oversee and check what the Contractor is saying.

The job will be stopped because of this.

The other Contractors will still turn up because noone has thought to tell them not to. They will submit a claim for payment for turning up. The Project Team will refuse and the whole issue will go to arbritration, where the Contractor will be found to have been in the right.

The Project Team will discover that their Consultant agrees with the first Contractor, so a Variation will be issued. The other Contractors will be required to resubmit prices for the job.

Because the Project Team are planning and managing how the work is done, it will be done slower and require more time and people than was priced.

A whole dispute will then develop when the final price is put in, and detailed explanations will be demanded to be supplied. The Contractors will charge extra for this because this is a cost not priced.

Eventually the job will be done.

There will be various claims and counterclaims and eventually the Contractors will agree to settle for 50% of the difference rather than go out of business.

Of course all this arguing will have extende the Project Team's time and involved a lot of additional costs.

These will be passed back to you as an add on to the final price for the job.

You will finally end up having to stump up considerably more than if you had gone direct and looked after it. You will probably not be much impressed as the cheapest not the best Contractors had got the job and to save money they had brought in as cheap a labour as they could. This will be reflected in the quality of the job.

You will end up not happy with the quality of the paint and paper, which has cost more to put up. You will also find that because the cheapest of the cheap wallpaper paste has been used, it will start to peel of after a few years and the whole sequence will start all over again.

Of course two things will have happened. One is that a number of Contractors will refuse to work for you, and second, the prices tendered will have gone up considerably because the last Contractor lost money and now you are considered high risk and the Contractors bankers require additional insurance to be taken out.

It is you who will end up paying because noone will tender to you unless you do.

Welcome to Infrastructure (track) renewals under Network Rail.


Can you do my essays for me? :lol:
 

jas_sl

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2009
Messages
47
So what you are saying is pretty much all the increase in construction costs is due to red tape from NR?

If this is the case:
a) are they aware of this and that it is causing less work to be achieved for a given stash of cash?
b) what can be done about it? Localize the work into regions? e.g. London, Scotland, Cornwall, Wales, Yorkshire etc? Maybe a National company is only needed for nationwide projects?
c) how does this bode for HS2? Can we get the French to project manage it instead ;)
 

GB

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
6,553
Location
Somewhere
In the eyes of OT, everything and anything is the fault of NR in someway:roll:

At least that is the feeling I get when reading alot of his posts.
 

Old Timer

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
3,702
Location
On a plane somewhere at 35,000
In the eyes of OT, everything and anything is the fault of NR in someway:roll:

At least that is the feeling I get when reading alot of his posts.
Speaking from an Infrastructure point of view, since Network Rail emerged, much has been changed but there is very little evidence of improvement.

Maintenance was taken "in-house" on the basis that it was safer and cheaper.

The outcome has been that it is far more expensive now, there have been more high profile derailments where track condition has found to have been a major (or the key) underlying factor, and anecdotal information is that incidents have not reduced, if anything they have increased.

Costs have been reduced through the medium of deferring renewals and reducing the workforce in favour of Labour Suppliers, itself a contradiction of NRs public face. Now there are even more workforce reductions and pay and conditions cuts proposed.

One cannot but conclude that taking maintenance in-house has therefore been the total failure which many forecast it would be.

The 7 to 5 Infrastructure Renewals exercise was promised as being simply an exercise in reducing the number of Contractors. It turned out to be yet another stick to beat the Infrastructure Contractors with to bring prices down. The only way this can be done is by bringing in even more contract labour, which is far, far from ideal for a whole raft of reasons.

Reorganisations which promised to bring about more "efficiencies", have simply imposed yet more man-marking which in turn has brought even more interference with the how the Infrastructure Contractors operate by people who have little or mostly no infrastructure knowledge.

Meanwhile costs are being pushed up by more and more procedures and documentation which NR require from their Contractors but which they do not apply to themselves.

I would aks you to judge for yourself if you think things have improved since 2002 ?
 

DaveNewcastle

Established Member
Joined
21 Dec 2007
Messages
7,387
Location
Newcastle (unless I'm out)
In the eyes of OT, everything and anything is the fault of NR in someway:roll:

At least that is the feeling I get when reading alot of his posts.
Ha Ha! To be fair, the same Health & Safety culture applies across all UK industry, and it has the same impact on the time jobs take and on what they cost.
I'm sure you've seen 2 people cutting the grass on the verge of motorways -2 people plus hundreds of traffic cones, vehicles with flashing signs, lane closure signs miles before, trucks with crew to drop off and pick up the cones and signs, and the welfare provision for all those workers. All these people are "Chapter 8" trained and will have office colleagues writing their risk assessments and checking their insurances. (just to cut the grass)
In construction sites, you only see ladders after a work plan has been submitted and a permit issued, otherwise you see several people hiring access towers, delivering them, assembling them, installing outriggers which may require an trained and certified forklift driver to move anything in the way of the tower, then signing off the access tower before climbing up (wearing hard hat with identiying sticker) to fit something.
In the home, moving a light switch requires a trained, qualified, experienced electrician who has their own work periodically inspected and certified. They need their "Part P". Even paying a painter and decorator to gloss the woodwork on your first floor windows now requires paying much more for scaffolding - and the scaffolders must be trained, qualified and insured not to mention the operator's licence to use the 7.5 ton truck which carried the scaff tubes. (okay, some don't though many get called "cowboys" by those who do have the training).
And I could go on . . . and on . . . .
Its not just UK railways
 

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
7,992
Location
K
Ha Ha! To be fair, the same Health & Safety culture applies across all UK industry, and it has the same impact on the time jobs take and on what they cost.
I'm sure you've seen 2 people cutting the grass on the verge of motorways -2 people plus hundreds of traffic cones, vehicles with flashing signs, lane closure signs miles before, trucks with crew to drop off and pick up the cones and signs, and the welfare provision for all those workers. All these people are "Chapter 8" trained and will have office colleagues writing their risk assessments and checking their insurances. (just to cut the grass)
In construction sites, you only see ladders after a work plan has been submitted and a permit issued, otherwise you see several people hiring access towers, delivering them, assembling them, installing outriggers which may require an trained and certified forklift driver to move anything in the way of the tower, then signing off the access tower before climbing up (wearing hard hat with identiying sticker) to fit something.
In the home, moving a light switch requires a trained, qualified, experienced electrician who has their own work periodically inspected and certified. They need their "Part P". Even paying a painter and decorator to gloss the woodwork on your first floor windows now requires paying much more for scaffolding - and the scaffolders must be trained, qualified and insured not to mention the operator's licence to use the 7.5 ton truck which carried the scaff tubes. (okay, some don't though many get called "cowboys" by those who do have the training).
And I could go on . . . and on . . . .
Its not just UK railways

Moving a light switch is not a notifiable change under Part P and it doesnt require a qualified electrian either!
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,774
Then you get the circus clowns like some of the contractors I've seen on site here, such as one installing some trunk cable high up in a plant room. He edged out along a narrow beam, looking pretty unsteady about it, to do so. Didn't even need full scaffolding do this safely instead, I'm sure if they'd asked they could have used one of the mobile scissor lifts.

Or the ones who were, unsighted, passing scaffold poles out of a first floor "suicide leap" right next to a main entrance to the building. Lovely.

OK, there was no accident in either case, but both looked like set ups from a badly made H&S training video- you know, the ones where it's really obvious that what the people are doing is a really, really bad idea.
(currently at over 260 days without a Lost Time accident on site, and one of the last ones was someone falling off a toilet. Because you can never totally protect people. One of the thers was a fat IT guy tripping and breaking an arm- he wouldn't have been badly injured if he wasn't obese...)
 

Old Timer

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
3,702
Location
On a plane somewhere at 35,000
A perfect example of why there is such a wide variation in tender prices.

The bigger Companies really do not want to have accidents because they cost a lot of money, damage their reputation and affect their ability to tender for work, as Carillion found out, and as another Company found out recently when it lost part of its work on the basis of its safety performance.

The problem is that at the end of the day a properly trained and competent workforce costs money. The attitude of stopping the job if something is considered to be unsafe is not only difficult to achieve but also potentially damages performance compared to those who are prpepared to look the other way or let their workforce "solve these issues at the time". I think you get the gist.

Despite what is stated publicly, price always has been, and will always be the deciding factor. I cannot recall the last time that a Contract was awarded above the lowest price on safety performance grounds.

Cheap tender prices on many occasions can indicate someone is using cheaper contract labour, with minimal training and supervision.

Examples of this can be seen across the Country and it is very difficult for the big Infrastructure Companies to compete when they have high overhead costs because of the investment they make in training, competence and the ongoing enforcement of high safety standards.

I have worked in both types of Company, I know where I prefer to be, but then I know which type actually wins the most work on the Network.


Jopsuk
Out of interest did you report the matter ? Does your Company have a Policy on what to do if you see others acting unsafely ?

Network Rail do require that such instances of unsafe working on their property are reported and this should have been passed out at the site induction briefing.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,774
Reported to the head of H&S. Having got more experience, and now having an H&S rep role as part of my job, I'd be more proactive and (especially with the working at height incident) I'd have requested they stop immediately or face being put off the site for breach of their contract (which is what I was told I should have done). I certainly have no problems now having words with colleagues (especially where their behaviour endangers others more than it endangers themselves) and have raised issues with line managers.
 

90019

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2008
Messages
6,890
Location
Featherstone, West Yorkshire
(currently at over 260 days without a Lost Time accident on site, and one of the last ones was someone falling off a toilet. Because you can never totally protect people. One of the thers was a fat IT guy tripping and breaking an arm- he wouldn't have been badly injured if he wasn't obese...)

I went to the power station at Ben Cruachan a few years ago, and it was something like 10 days since the last accident.
It had been at almost 10 years since the last accident before that, but someone had hurt his back whilst bending over to pick up a hammer.
 

Old Timer

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
3,702
Location
On a plane somewhere at 35,000
Thank you.

Having been a staff H&S (and LDC Rep come to that) I know how hard a job that can be.

I was fortunate in having had a supportive Manager, and learnt a lot such that when I became a Management side representative responsible for dealing with the TU H&S Reps I operated in the same manner.

Indeed we used to laugh at the fact that I would bring up more than the H&S Rep.

I think Management is now much more switched on to the more general H&S issues than we ever were, but I still do feel that in the new climate on the Railways that in some parts of the Industry, the H&S Rep is actually seen as being more of a trouble-maker than someone trying to raise valid issues.

Fortunately within the major Infrastructure Companies, this is not tolerated and each Manager's safety performance statisics are actually part of his/her annual pay review in my Company.

An open culture which encourages the reporting of incidents without fear of recrimination is something that I have only encountered in two Companies, and at Jarvis for example failing to report is classed as a dismissable offence. They do not penalise anyone for reporting even if the reportee was in the wrong, although "words of advice" are given.

So far I have managed to foster goodwill with my team such that they feel comfortable to come and talk about things they have done which maybe were not right, and they wish to understand what is the correct way.

I never put anything into writing, and everything said remains between ourselves. So far I have been able to resolve a number of issues which were actually wrong, and together with the Supervisors and staff we have altered some of our working arrangements to prevent situations occurring which quite frankly I amongst others had not realised were causing a problem. To my old BR training this is how H&S Management should operate.

The sad thing is that my people do occasionally find that they are being pressured by the Client to take shortcuts which they feel are unsafe, but they are confident enough to refuse and to refer the matter upwards if it is not resolved at that level.

I have to say though that the safety issues we tend to find are amongst the smaller Contractors for whom financial matters are sometimes on a knife-edge between profit and loss, hence my earlier comments.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,774
At my (non railway I should mention- chemical industry, and I'm a labcoat wearer) place of work, part of our site-wide bonus is tied to H&S, specifically to accidents requiring more than just first aid (ie, those that aren't classed as simply "minor" accidents and that there's no way to not report. I think this does help encourage safe work practices whilst not penalising the reporting of minor accidents and even incidents (near misses).
As you say, it's important to strike a balance- red tape does nobody any good, but neither does someone ending up in hospital (or worse).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top