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On this point, every time anybody has made noise about competing with Eurostar, they've been throttled out (either by regulation or by market research). Until the UK government changes it's position on border controls taking place prior to boarding (which I can't imagine happening particularly soon in the context of the recent announcements) then I don't see how any serious competition will be launched against Eurostar. A Ouigo style operation won't be able to cover the security costs, another premium operator doesn't really shake up the market. The only people who had a real chance of competition were DB because they could offer the (then-)lucrative German business market as a base to compete on the Brussels-Paris leg, but alas, they have largely faded in their interest.
That’s an interesting point. In defence of the UK government, not that I particularly want to defend the current one(!), I don’t see any realistic way to avoid pre boarding checks, for travel into/out of a non Schengen state? Current events on the Channel coast rather underline why.
Is there any evidence that border control costs specifically are what has deterred other operators? I’d imagine a significant part of it is that air travel simply becomes too competitive in terms of time, once you get much further into continental Europe than Paris/Brussels. Even Amsterdam is pushing it.
I was talking about their attitude to Interrail passholders. With the (dis)honourable exception of SNCF's ripoff cross-border TGV services, no other operator charges a passholder reservation fee that is so expensive. It goes against the longstanding principle of Interrail passes, which is that they are already valid tickets and so any reservations that are required should be easily obtainable and cost no more than a nominal fee. In other words, passholders should be treated as equivalent to walk-up ticket holders.
This 'longstanding principle' (if there ever really was one as such) is no longer appropriate, and hasn't been for a long time. Ever since the pass started many Swiss railways charged a supplement (by way of a discount on their normal fares). Just think of these long distance High speed train reservation/supplements as this type of operation.
The only other way is to substantially increase Interrail prices, so these high speed long distance trains can get an acceptable price per passenger for each journey that is made. However, is this really desirable.
Of course, what Interrail ticket holders really want is for other passengers or taxpayers to subsidise their cheap ticket!
Somebody's financed those losses and I suspect UK govt has, in some way, contributed to that. Although Eurostar are doing their best to eliminate smaller margins or loss-leaders like Kent.
The UK government paid furlough only despite a strong media campaign by Eurostar to pressure the treasury to bail them out. Many on this site blindly supported that, regardless of value for money for UK taxpayers. Eurostar financed the £500 million hit by borrowing money from the French government (its primary shareholder) and from banks using its fleet as collateral. It will have to pay it back over time, causing higher ticket prices. Due to recent and planned border changes Eurostar won't be able to run full capacity until 2025 and with airfares high its a good time to charge higher prices to pay off a chunk of the debt.
On this point, every time anybody has made noise about competing with Eurostar, they've been throttled out (either by regulation or by market research)
What’s usually missed in the discussion about Eurostar competition is the ‘why?’
In any functioning market, the ‘why’ is usually profit. In Eurostar’s case, Pre Covid, they typically made profits in the region of 5-10% of turnover. Not to be sniffed at, sure, but not exactly huge. A competitor entering the market would by its nature reduce that margin, and only take a share of the market. And given the rather significant barriers to entry (investment in trains of a near unique spec, unique regulation, border controls, etc), there’s a lot of downside risk and not much upside. Especially in a market that is currently making much less money than Pre Covid.
Also a profit of 5-10% (which I suspect Eurostar would be delighted to make now) shows how much ticket prices would reduce, at most, in a perfectly competitive market where no one made a profit.
So the answer to the question “why is Eurostar so expensive” is, as ever, “providing rail services is expensive, and that has to be paid for by passengers if it is not subsidised“.
So the answer to the question “why is Eurostar so expensive” is, as ever, “providing rail services is expensive, and that has to be paid for by passengers if it is not subsidised“.
That’s strikes me as a pithy answer to a great many posts and threads on the forum, generally! Other forms of transport are available, some of which may be cheaper, but also quite possibly less pleasant/convenient. Pays money, takes choice. That is a good thing for consumers, because it promotes choice.
Having experienced both Eurostar and EasyJet, and BA for that matter, for similar length journeys, I have no issue with the latter, but would again pay a premium to use the former.
This 'longstanding principle' (if there ever really was one as such) is no longer appropriate, and hasn't been for a long time. Ever since the pass started many Swiss railways charged a supplement (by way of a discount on their normal fares). Just think of these long distance High speed train reservation/supplements as this type of operation.
For Interrail/Eurail, a discount works differently than "free" travel, especially for flexipasses, which do not need to have an active travel day to be able to get the discount. And I'm sure operators who only give a discount won't receive as much from the pass income as the operators who grant "free" travel.
It would be great if Eurostar could be used without having to activate a travel day. Likewise for the other international TGVs. €68 for a 1st class reservation Paris to Zurich? That's really nothing more than a discount and should not need a valid travel day.
The only other way is to substantially increase Interrail prices, so these high speed long distance trains can get an acceptable price per passenger for each journey that is made. However, is this really desirable.
Of course, what Interrail ticket holders really want is for other passengers or taxpayers to subsidise their cheap ticket!
Not all Interrail tickets are so cheap. It really depends. And I fear the average yield per passenger km for Interrail/Eurail will remain a secret, or do you have any figures to back up your statement?
I'm afraid that simply isn't the case. Eurostar and the cross-border TGVs are really the only places where the passholder reservations are so expensive that they are little more than a discounted fare. Whilst not all operators make it as easy to obtain reservations as should be the case, none charge as much as those two for an equivalent service or journey.
I'm not sure exactly where you are referring to, but there is a significant difference between a quasi-tourist attraction which offers a discount for Interrail holders (and thus receives no or little revenue from the passes) and what Eurostar do.
The only other way is to substantially increase Interrail prices, so these high speed long distance trains can get an acceptable price per passenger for each journey that is made. However, is this really desirable.
No, the other way is for Eurail to force Eurostar to stop playing silly b*****s and either accept the passes on payment of a nominal fee, or pull out and stop receiving pass revenue. Of course, that's not going to happen.
Interrail passholders generally pay a lot more in total than most other passengers. The fact that they may be paying less per mile is no more accurate or relevant than claiming that season ticket holders want Anytime ticket holders to subsidise their "cheap" ticket. What Interrail passholders want is for their passes to be accepted in the spirit of the scheme.
Does it matter to Eurostar if they aren’t, though? Does that make any difference to the economic externalities delivered by the service? I’d suggest inter-railers aren’t the most economically beneficial passengers.
Ultimately, why should students on a gap year/railway enthusiasts be allowed to take up seats on a premium international railway service, when that will only increase the price for the rest of us?
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No, the other way is for Eurail to force Eurostar to stop playing silly b*****s and either accept the passes on payment of a nominal fee, or pull out and stop receiving pass revenue. Of course, that's not going to happen.
So, if it isn’t going to happen, what’s the relevance to the thread? And, if Interrail isn’t accepted in the usual way on Eurostar (and I note you’re also criticising cross border TGVs which are surely off topic), why are we discussing it here? It simply won’t be relevant to almost all Eurostar passengers!
So the answer to the question “why is Eurostar so expensive” is, as ever, “providing rail services is expensive, and that has to be paid for by passengers if it is not subsidised“.
And I cannot see a UK goverment of any political hue wishing to subsidise cross channel rail passenger services. Even a Green party influenced administration would I think tax air travel rather than subsidise rail for international services.
The fact that ferries are gradually removing foot passenger services tells me that the market for lower cost crossings is probably not big/lucrative enough. There are some low cost coach services, so if flying isn't your thing or not convenient then that is a cheaper option.
Its also interseting that in 1931 a 3rd class single on the Golden Arrow would have set you back £4 10s 0d, which in todays money equates to about £390. In terms of like for like, this was probably the most convenient London Paris route at the time, and 1st class was £6 10s 0d which is about £560 today. I would equate 3rd class Golden Arrow with Standard Premier on Eurostar and 1st class with Business class today. Again there would have been cheaper options back then.
So maybe its not that Eurostar is expensive, more that we have got used to having low cost low margin air travel. But my feeling is that low cost air operations will have to raise prices.
So maybe it’s not that Eurostar is expensive, more that we have got used to having low cost low margin air travel. But my feeling is that low cost air operations will have to raise prices.
I first took Eurostar in early 1997. IIRC the cheapest fare available was £29 one way, but my friends paid about £50/£60, and we were picky about trains to save money. Inflation has effectively doubled prices since then, so that equates to cheapest fares today of £59, typical ‘cheap’ fares of £100/£120. Which is about right.
Meanwhile I flew to Spain a few months earlier, on a very cheap ‘bucket spade’ flight only deal - the cheapest I could find. That was £130 return, which would be £260 now. I can book similar flights now for £46 return, albeit that would be about £100 if I want to take a hold bag.
I first took Eurostar in early 1997. IIRC the cheapest fare available was £29 one way, but my friends paid about £50/£60, and we were picky about trains to save money. Inflation has effectively doubled prices since then, so that equates to cheapest fares today of £59, typical ‘cheap’ fares of £100/£120. Which is about right.
I first used Eurostar in 1999, to view the total eclipse in Northern France. I went as a day trip, staying in London overnight and getting the first train out in the morning and returning late afternoon. I cant remember the exact fare but about £40 each way to Lille springs to mind.
Plan was to change there and go to Amiens, but SNCF had completely miscalculated the number of people turning up in Lille on the first Eurostar, basically the whole Eurostar, which was 100% full, I didnt see a single spare seat. Who then all made for Lille Flanders to board the local service to Amiens. We were not going to all fit on the (3/4 car, cant remember) local EMU. To be fair after about 20 mins confusion they got their act together and a somewhat harrased SNCF official told everyone who had come to view the eclipse to form a queue and we would be taken to a viewpoint on the line of totality (far more broken english, but a couple of French speakers in the queue helped), and we were slowly packed into buses and minibuses. Our minibus stopped in an out of town shopping centre car park and we got a good view. Before the return some negotiations between the driver and a French speaking passenger resulted in a whip round, about a £10 each and instead of returning straight to Lille we went on a scenic route with a couple of stops and arrived in tme for our booked train back to the UK. (I think just about everyone had the same travel plan if they were eclipse viewing).
I'm not sure exactly where you are referring to, but there is a significant difference between a quasi-tourist attraction which offers a discount for Interrail holders (and thus receives no or little revenue from the passes) and what Eurostar do.
No, the other way is for Eurail to force Eurostar to stop playing silly b*****s and either accept the passes on payment of a nominal fee, or pull out and stop receiving pass revenue. Of course, that's not going to happen.
I would agree that E* is unlikely to want to convey Interrail passengers at a cheaper price. Why would they - what is in it for them? Nothing. Eurail is in no position to 'force' E* into accepting passes on payment of a nominal fee, anymore than it can the Jungfrau railway.
Of course they do. They want travel at cheap prices! However, E* withdrawal from the ticket entirely is more likely. Interrail is not a 'scheme', it is a commercial ticket, and operators can take part as they wish, on what terms they wish. E* certainly won't want Interrail to be undercutting their commercial tickets.
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For Interrail/Eurail, a discount works differently than "free" travel, especially for flexipasses, which do not need to have an active travel day to be able to get the discount. And I'm sure operators who only give a discount won't receive as much from the pass income as the operators who grant "free" travel.
It would be great if Eurostar could be used without having to activate a travel day. Likewise for the other international TGVs. €68 for a 1st class reservation Paris to Zurich? That's really nothing more than a discount and should not need a valid travel day.
Not all Interrail tickets are so cheap. It really depends. And I fear the average yield per passenger km for Interrail/Eurail will remain a secret, or do you have any figures to back up your statement?
If E* didn't get the share from the active travel day revenue as well as the supplement, then the supplement/discount would have to yield that much more. I do not know what the amount of money E* gets out of the Global Interrail ticket sales is, divided by the number of passengers purchasing a supplement. I would hazard a guess that it is not much, but with the supplement brings it up to an amount that E* is happy with for an equivalence of the cheaper levels of tickets [hence the controls on availability]. [ possibly up to £45 or so, if that?? ]
To set a price and reimbursement mechanism for Global Interrail tickets is inevitably going to be very difficult to please all the operators, especially those offering premium products (either in service and/or price) or yield managing to maximise revenue. International services and particularly high speed lines are not going to be happy accepting lower yields per passenger km for some altruistic concept of a pan - European travel at will ticket, especially when those seats could be filled with much higher yielding traffic. If you don't like paying the supplement, travel at will on someone else's trains then. The other problem is this Global product placing an artificial cap on the yield, hence the availability controls on these trains as well.
If E* didn't get the share from the active travel day revenue as well as the supplement, then the supplement/discount would have to yield that much more.
Until a number of years ago, they charged €75 per single (I needed one ~20 years ago). The pass reservations were made a lot less expensive (to current levels) when at the time Eurostar announced they had become a full Interrail/Eurail member. So it could indeed be that they now get around €45 more from the pass income than before (but I don't know what they received 20 years ago, on top of the reservation fee).
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