Why is Conwy a request stop?

[mrd269697]

Sometime I’ve always wondered. Conwy is a hugely popular Tourist town, a honeypot location, and given this fact, as well as being on the North Wales coast line rather than a rural branch, you’d expect it to be a staffed station with all services calling, even Avanti Services.

Instead, it is an unmanned request stop, with no ticketing facilities of any kind, only has a two hourly service and has very short platforms that can only hold two cars.

I am aware this station was closed in the 60’s and subsequently reopened, but as I said it’s not a rural station, it’s in one of the busiest towns in north Wales in terms of tourists, so it’s status is confusing. Is it perhaps because Llandudno Junction is only a mile or so away?

 

[Revilo]

Isn’t it because of timing ie if they make it a full stop they have to add more time.

 

[zwk500]

Is Conwy an actual request stop? I thought all services that call there are properly booked to stop.

The reason it has such a poor service is (I would guess) because the station itself is so small that only the local service can fit, and the other stations on the local services can't justify a more frequent service. Conwy on it's own does not justify an additional service to fill in the gaps. There's a good argument for serving Conwy with 1tph, although operationally it's difficult to see how it all fits in.

The station itself is small, with narrow platforms and no substantial platform facilities which is not suitable for stopping inter-city trains with tourists carrying luggage and probably a little older than average. The platforms themselves cannot be substantially lengthened due to the walls at one end and the tunnel at the other, nor would the curvature be suitable for voyagers due to the stepping distance they have to clear the tilt profile.

There's also a question as to whether the tourists currently coming to Conwy (or likely to come) would use the train even if a better service were provided. Conwy seems very much like the kind of place that would be much more suitable for escorted day trips on a coach with a few hours free time than individual travellers stopping off for a few nights. If you're going to the North Wales coast for a holiday, you'd probably stay in Llandudno or Colwyn Bay and visit Conwy for a day.

 

[ainsworth74]

Must admit when visiting Conwy Castle just walked to and from Llandudno Junction station seeing as it wasn't very far. Didn't even think to bother looking at whether there would be trains at a suitable time at Conwy station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Must admit when visiting Conwy Castle just walked to and from Llandudno Junction station seeing as it wasn't very far. Didn't even think to bother looking at whether there would be trains at a suitable time at Conwy station.

It's a good mile from LLJ though - not everyone will be willing/able to walk that, particularly not the older demographic that Llandudno and surrounds is popular with.

In a sensible world perhaps there'd be a shuttle bus coordinated with train departures from LLJ rather than a station (one bus could probably do half hourly or better given the short distance), but sadly we don't live in that sensible world.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

There are already lots of buses, several per hour.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are already lots of buses, several per hour.

Not, however, integrated with the railway timetable and fares system (other than possibly Plusbus), nor would you be covered if you missed your train as a result of one being late.

I wouldn't underestimate the number of passengers the railway might lose if on entering "Conwy" in the NRE planner nothing came up.

 

[Envoy]

Not, however, integrated with the railway timetable and fares system (other than possibly Plusbus), nor would you be covered if you missed your train as a result of one being late.

I wouldn't underestimate the number of passengers the railway might lose if on entering "Conwy" in the NRE planner nothing came up.

Conwy does come up on the rail websites. However, if you type in the English spelling “Conway" - you get Conway Park. Of course, this all arises from the mad quest to try and wipe out the English names for places in Wales and use only the Welsh version - even though 80% of the people of Wales don’t speak Welsh - let alone everybody else. So, we could have a situation where many people would like to go direct to Conway but think it does not have a station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Conwy does come up on the rail websites.

It does, but if it closed it wouldn't despite frequent buses.

I don't think anyone would inadvertently use the old English spellings for Welsh railway stations, e.g. Conway - it feels very archaic to me. The only one that would be really likely to confuse people I can think of would be Valley/Dyffryn/Y Fali, which not even the place itself seems to know, but it's hardly a big destination.

 

[SJL2020]

There's also a question as to whether the tourists currently coming to Conwy (or likely to come) would use the train even if a better service were provided. Conwy seems very much like the kind of place that would be much more suitable for escorted day trips on a coach with a few hours free time than individual travellers stopping off for a few nights. If you're going to the North Wales coast for a holiday, you'd probably stay in Llandudno or Colwyn Bay and visit Conwy for a day.

Based on numerous visits over the years, I think Conwy has done a pretty good job of re-positioning itself in the market as a good quality, heritage-led destination for overnight and day visits. Up until the advent of Covid, visitor numbers had been increasing steadily over the past decade, both for staying visitors and day visitors (the latter including substantial numbers day-visiting from urban areas of NW England).

Events such as the Conwy Food festival and the general improvement in the food & drink + accommodation offer means that the town can cater for visitors wanting a quality eating and/or drinking experience as well as the various heritage attractions.

The data from the local authority suggests that around 60% of overnight stays to the area are short breaks (1-3 nights), with a sizeable proportion of these being empty nesters or younger adults with no children. I'd have thought that rail travel would be attractive to a significant minority of visitors of these types who prefer to travel unescorted.

It's interesting to note that Conwy has seen usage of its station grow over the past few years, despite the constraint on services using it. For example, over the 2012/13 to 2018/19 period, the usage figures at Conwy grew by 68%, albeit from a low base (i.e., 38K to 64K).

By comparison, usage at Colwyn Bay, both Llandudno stations, Abergele, Bangor, Rhyl and Prestatyn all apparently declined by varying percentages (mostly in the range -2% to -10%) over the same period.

I have occasionally wondered if a case could be made for relocating Conwy station a few hundred metres to the north (outside the city walls) to allow an improved range of services to be provided. I dare say the existing station site might be an attractive opportunity for a sympathetic redevelopment, if the planners would countenance it.

 

[Kite159]

Is Conwy an actual request stop? I thought all services that call there are properly booked to stop

Heading towards Holyhead I suspect most trains call as the conductor won't have enough time to check the train for requests from those boarding at Llandudno Junction.

 

[Trackman]

I stayed in the Castle hotel a few years ago, at LLJ I asked the guard to stop at Conwy and said at this time of year they stop there anyway. I suppose with such a packed train and only a short distance to go he couldn’t have got through the whole train to see if anyone wanted Conwy.
Edit: see post above

 

[John Luxton]

Conwy does come up on the rail websites. However, if you type in the English spelling “Conway" - you get Conway Park. Of course, this all arises from the mad quest to try and wipe out the English names for places in Wales

I think you will find that CONWY has been the official English and Welsh spelling for many years now. I am not sure when it officially changed but I am certain it might be as early as the 1970s.
I agree there does need to be a simplification of signage on both road and rail. For instance Wrexham (English) sounds the same as Wrecsam (Welsh) - why have two? As Wrecsam is in Wales why use the English spelling.

Though I live in England being close to the Welsh border makes me quite familiar with Welsh place names and have no problems substituting Abertawe for Swansea for example. The Welsh language is as much a part of the greater British culture than English and predates it. I think we should be embrace the languages of our islands as there is a lot of heritage in those languages and things can be learnt from the interpretation of place names.

I might be English but I appreciate the cultures, particularly the Welsh culture due to Wales' proximity to where I live, these cultures are what makes this Great Britain and not little England!

 

[mrd269697]

I think you will find that CONWY has been the official English and Welsh spelling for many years now. I am not sure when it officially changed but I am certain it might be as early as the 1970s.
I agree there does need to be a simplification of signage on both road and rail. For instance Wrexham (English) sounds the same as Wrecsam (Welsh) - why have two? As Wrecsam is in Wales why use the English spelling.

Though I live in England being close to the Welsh border makes me quite familiar with Welsh place names and have no problems substituting Abertawe for Swansea for example. The Welsh language is as much a part of the greater British culture than English and predates it. I think we should be embrace the languages of our islands as there is a lot of heritage in those languages and things can be learnt from the interpretation of place names.

I might be English but I appreciate the cultures, particularly the Welsh culture do to its proximity to where I live, that make this Great Britain.

Couldn’t agree more

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have occasionally wondered if a case could be made for relocating Conwy station a few hundred metres to the north (outside the city walls) to allow an improved range of services to be provided. I dare say the existing station site might be an attractive opportunity for a sympathetic redevelopment, if the planners would countenance it.

It might be easier when the 197s are in service, as those have selective door opening. Not the Mk4s, though I suppose "local door" could be used.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Aug 2021 ==

I think you will find that CONWY has been the official English and Welsh spelling for many years now. I am not sure when it officially changed but I am certain it might be as early as the 1970s.
I agree there does need to be a simplification of signage on both road and rail. For instance Wrexham (English) sounds the same as Wrecsam (Welsh) - why have two? As Wrecsam is in Wales why use the English spelling.

Though some of them aren't clear. I don't think many would realise that "Yr Wyddgrug" and "Mold" are the same place.

On the other hand I doubt anyone under the age of about 50 has ever used the spelling "Carnarvon" with a V and missing E, nor referred to the Ffestiniog Railway with only one F.

 

[John Luxton]

Though some of them aren't clear. I don't think many would realise that "Yr Wyddgrug" and "Mold" are the same place.

On the other hand I doubt anyone under the age of about 50 has ever used the spelling "Carnarvon" with a V and missing E, nor referred to the Ffestiniog Railway with only one F.

True some are very different - but it is not beyond the possibilities of people to learn alternatives especially if they live on this island!

Caernarfon probably changed around the same time as Conwy - and I would guess it happened around the time of the 1974 at the time of the various boundary and name changes in England and Wales.

When referring to the Ffestiniog Railway one uses two Ffs for the railway and I understand technically one F for the company!

Then of course there is Porthmadog / Portmadoc that change slipped in early 70s and recall a debate about it in the FR Magazine early 70s shortly after I joined the FRS for the first time as a youngster I think under the heading "Back to Port"

Some Welsh names have changed possibly for other reasons Towyn mid Wales become Tywyn which does avoid confusion with the other Towyn in north Wales.

Anyway as far as Conwy is concerned that is how it should be spelt!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some Welsh names have changed possibly for other reasons Towyn mid Wales become Tywyn which does avoid confusion with the other Towyn in north Wales.

Tywyn means "white house", interestingly. I guess that's how it was derived.

 

[John Luxton]

Tywyn means "white house", interestingly. I guess that's how it was derived.

It would appear that Towyn (Conwy) in also Tywyn in Welsh but retaining the Anglicised version to avoid confusion.

Over the years when I have spoken to people and said that I have been going to Tywyn (for the TR) have thought I meant Towyn!

Earlier this year I spotted a news item from a news paper posted on a Welsh History Facebook Book page about the number of tourists who turn up each year to view Caernarfon Castle in Carmarthen!

John

 

[Djgr]

Conwy does come up on the rail websites. However, if you type in the English spelling “Conway" - you get Conway Park. Of course, this all arises from the mad quest to try and wipe out the English names for places in Wales and use only the Welsh version - even though 80% of the people of Wales don’t speak Welsh - let alone everybody else. So, we could have a situation where many people would like to go direct to Conway but think it does not have a station.

Seriously, nobody has called it Conway for years.

And yes it's crazy it doesn't have a better service.

 

[Zontar]

It's a tiny platform that just about gets 2 cars in, on a curve and on a gradient... maybe it's time consuming stoping there and the powers that be consider Llandudno close enough and want more passengers to use that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seriously, nobody has called it Conway for years.

And yes it's crazy it doesn't have a better service.

I wonder if it might be feasible to make it hourly once the Manchester service is diverted to Bangor?

As things stand the sparse service at Conwy, Llanfairfechan, Penmaenmawr, Llanfairpwll, Valley, Ty Croes and Bodorgan is because there are 7 of them and you don't want long distance expresses stopping at all of them. Whereas you could probably stop the Manchester at Conwy plus either Llanfairfechan or Penmaenmawr each hour, allowing the Cardiff to run faster. (corrected, sorry).

 

[6Gman]

Conwy does come up on the rail websites. However, if you type in the English spelling “Conway" - you get Conway Park. Of course, this all arises from the mad quest to try and wipe out the English names for places in Wales and use only the Welsh version - even though 80% of the people of Wales don’t speak Welsh - let alone everybody else. So, we could have a situation where many people would like to go direct to Conway but think it does not have a station.

Er, or perhaps it makes sense to use the actual place name? It's been decades since the Conwy form was reinstated.

People cannot go to Conway because there's no place with that name!

 

[PHILIPE]

The station closed in 1966 as part of the Beeching cuts as the OP says and re-opened in 1987 with no facilities and only as a Request Stop. which would appear to have been a condition of re-opening This is also when it changed it name from Conway before closure and Conwy on it's re-opening.

 

[TravelDream]

The spelling change from Conway to Conwy is English (like Carnarvon and others) was made in the Local Government Act 1972. It's just a year until it was 50 years ago.
PHILIPE above is right that the station was shut when this name change took place and it was named Conwy when it reopened in 1987.

 

[davews]

Different part of Wales but just back from a weekend break in Tenby a few hundred yards from Penally which similarly was closed, re-opened temporarily and now open but request only. Didn't actually see the station, only passed the entrance to the car park. Line visible from where we were staying, a couple of two carriage trains heading that way and back.

Seems pretty typical for these rural Welsh stations but surprised Conwy is like that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Different part of Wales but just back from a weekend break in Tenby a few hundred yards from Penally which similarly was closed, re-opened temporarily and now open but request only. Didn't actually see the station, only passed the entrance to the car park. Line visible from where we were staying, a couple of two carriage trains heading that way and back.

Seems pretty typical for these rural Welsh stations but surprised Conwy is like that.

At the time it was reopened (and long before Ryanair basically took all the ferry foot passenger traffic away) long Holyhead loco-hauled expresses would never have called at local stations west of the Junction - instead there was a roughly-2-hourly-ish local stopping service to Holyhead interworked with the Conwy Valley, mostly using 2-car units. So there was no need foreseen for anything more.

 

[Djgr]

Conwy is staycation central at the moment. It is a genuinely pleasant small town.

If Llandudno Junction wasn't what it is i.e. a junction for Llandudno and Blaenau I would seek to shift the stopping patterns away from there to Conwy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Conwy is staycation central at the moment. It is a genuinely pleasant small town.

If Llandudno Junction wasn't what it is i.e. a junction for Llandudno and Blaenau I would seek to shift the stopping patterns away from there to Conwy.

I don't see any particular reason the new Manchester-Bangor shouldn't stop at both. OK, they are quite close together, but demand west of Llandudno Jn won't be huge so you won't be delaying many people.

I agree, it's a surprisingly nice place. In some ways similar to Caernarfon but a bit nicer, and of course reachable directly by rail unlike Caernarfon.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

It might be easier when the 197s are in service, as those have selective door opening. Not the Mk4s, though I suppose "local door" could be used.

Only trains with two carrages are stopping at Conwy. Taxi from Llandno junction is a good alternative for anyone not wanting to walk.

There are some stairs at Conwy. If you have heavy suitcases, LLJ+taxi may be a better option even if your train does stop at Conwy.

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[Bletchleyite]

Only trains with two carrages are stopping at Conwy

At the moment yes. But the 197s will have ASDO (automatic selective door operation) so a longer train could call.