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Why have other countries not broken the US stranglehold on the tech industry?

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najaB

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Split from this thread:
Lloyds, BT and M&S have been a lot less successful than Apple, Meta and Google, by any financial measure!

Why the UK (and much of Europe) haven’t grown listed tech businesses comparable to the US giants is a separate, interesting but off-topic question.
I would say it's largely because US companies have been quite successful at snapping up their potential competitors elsewhere. As an example, my current employer was a very successful player in our market - which brought us to the attention of US venture capitalists who bought us and merged us with their other US/Canadian holdings.

One example of where the UK was, quite literally, world-beating and managed to avoid being snappled up by an American company is ARM Holdings. In that case it was the Japanese who got the prize.
 
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coppercapped

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Split from this thread:

I would say it's largely because US companies have been quite successful at snapping up their potential competitors elsewhere. As an example, my current employer was a very successful player in our market - which brought us to the attention of US venture capitalists who bought us and merged us with their other US/Canadian holdings.

One example of where the UK was, quite literally, world-beating and managed to avoid being snappled up by an American company is ARM Holdings. In that case it was the Japanese who got the prize.
But interestingly one of the earliest investors in ARM was Apple. When I joined Apple in 1987 one of the projects I worked on was APRM - Apple's Proprietry RISC Machine - and I had the project tee-shirt for years until it finally fell apart! Apple's worsening financial position in the mid-1990s meant it started selling chunks of ARM shares from time to time. The other reason why Apple backed out of ARM was because there was an internal conflict of interest as, at the time, Apple used Motorola micro-processors almost exclusively.

Apple used ARM designs in the Newton personal digital assistant (1993 to 1998) and all Apple iPhones, iPads and nearly all the Macintosh computers now use ARM design libraries with the chips being made by Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company.
 

AngusH

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One theory I've seen and think probably significant is that in the US it was relatively easier for people to get funding for new ventures.

Look at the path
Beckman -> Shockely Semiconductor -> Fairchild -> Intel

At each stage it was possible for key people to get funding and then set up a new company.

A lot of the web companies were funded by people who had made good money on previous tech businesses.

It was also seen as a good thing.

I don't think they had to put down collateral (a house or whatever) either.

Compared to the business and funding climate in the UK.


It's a also a long term issue from issues in the past.

Tthe failure of the national champions approach, which led to the creation of ICL and British Leyland...

Then too was the concept of inward investment rather than supporting local companies.

It was seen as better to spend on paying companies from outside the uk to set up branch offices or factories, using tax money taken from local firms (that might be in competition).

Were there benefits to inward investment? Maybe, but it didn't work that well in the long run.
Look at "Silicon Glen" in Scotland, almost all the factories are gone :(


(Also the Marshall aid was mostly mis-spent in the Uk on various things, including the nuclear bomb programme at a time of general need to invest in infrastructure improvements)
 

yorksrob

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It's worth reading "The State We're In" by Will Hutton. It was written in the 1990's but the problem has only got worse.
 

brad465

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This is ultimately why the free-market model doesn't work, it might sound good in principle, but cartels and monopolies can form that erode all the supposed benefits. What makes it even worse is that when there's a big crash, these large corporations are so powerful/significant, that they earn the "too big to fail" tag that gets them bailouts, as the banks did in 2008, and multiple industries' workforces in 2020, and led to the phrase "privatise profits, socialise losses", which is the worst of both worlds.
 

AngusH

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I agree on the "privatise profits, socialise losses" bit, that shouldn't be happening.

I don't agree on the issue of free markets, primarily because I think the alternatives tend to be worse.
You end up getting government officials making key decisions without the necessary knowledge
and without any risk to themselves if the outcome is bad.

A mostly free market with some regulation seems about the best outcome usually from what I can see.
 

brad465

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I agree on the "privatise profits, socialise losses" bit, that shouldn't be happening.

I don't agree on the issue of free markets, primarily because I think the alternatives tend to be worse.
You end up getting government officials making key decisions without the necessary knowledge
and without any risk to themselves if the outcome is bad.

A mostly free market with some regulation seems about the best outcome usually from what I can see.
Basically a social democracy model, which has nationalised utilities and strategic industry (i.e. ones that can't be trusted/held accountable easily in private operation, and/or have to be bailed out when they go bust or we're in even deeper trouble), while retaining private enterprise elsewhere but under strict regulation. This is what Scandanavian countries and some other European countries adopt.
 

AngusH

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Various economic possibilities exist certainly (with possibly as many as 195 practical implementations!)

On the other hand, managing computing technology industries with government regulation has often had really bad outcomes.

The soviet computer industry was pretty much killed off by incorrect decision making
and lack of competition probably meant that you couldn't easily set up a new research institute if the government said no to your ideas.
(They ended up mostly duplicating existing western designs after initial ideological opposition and some promising ideas in the middle)

Technology seems to be developed fastest when engineers are free to move between
companies easily and start new ones if none of the existing ones suit.

The UK seems to have the first, but the second was and is troublesome.

And if you want manufacturing capabilities for national security the government
probably needs to pay directly as part of a long term plan.
(Which is something the US government absolutely did and the UK government tended to get wrong)
 

birchesgreen

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Underpinning the US tech industry is the massive defence research budget. Then you have a lot of venture capital, a number of rich universities et cetera. This has built the huge eco-system which US tech thrives in.

UK doesn't have that apart from Oxbridge. We also like to shoot ourselves in the foot though a lot of that is due to foreign (i.e. US) influence and meddling.
 

yorksrob

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We have the City of London, which should provide a rich source of capital for new business/industry. Unfortunately it seems better at denuding the country of industry for its own gain.
 

DC1989

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I feel like it's more difficult to get funding / business loans here. Imagine a teenager went to a UK bank for a business loan for their 'facebook' idea in 2004? Do you think the bank would lend to them
 

simonw

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I feel like it's more difficult to get funding / business loans here. Imagine a teenager went to a UK bank for a business loan for their 'facebook' idea in 2004? Do you think the bank would lend to them
Well there was a site called 'friends reunited' which some will remember which, although not like the current Facebook was similar to the original concept. Ended up being bought by ITV of all people but which no longer exists.
 

bangor-toad

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The answers to why the UK hasn't grown (many) huge tech companies is something I spent 10+ years trying to solve. It was ultimately quite depressing...

Many won't believe it but there is plenty of money and support for new ideas and companies in the UK. There is *far* more targeted and decent public support than I've ever found in the USA (especially compared to the Bay Area / Silicon Valley). For example, here in Northern Ireland there are TV adverts encourage people to get public funding to start their ideas.
Private inventors / venture capital support is admittedly patchy - the further you get from London / Oxford / Cambridge the harder it is.
Private US early stage investment is often far more onerous than the equivalent UK terms for individuals.

A significant part of the problem is few people want to try.
For a while I ran a small fund to develop research and at times I couldn't give the money away as there was no interest.
It's worst in the computing / tech sector. Here there are plenty of well paid jobs, at all levels, and getting a stable job is more attractive than working really hard to grow your own company.

Then there's the fear of failure. This is a big cultural difference between the US and the UK. In the UK if you get it wrong and your idea fails causing everyone to loose their money your reputation is trashed. There's an utterly unrealistic expectation that no UK start ups will fail and it's the boss' fault if they do. In the US, failure isn't so much tolerated as expected and celebrated as a learning experience.
This puts people off from even trying.

If you can get the something going there's a huge lack of vision for UK tech startups compared to US ones. A UK company will often look to grow to turnover of £1million in a few years. In the US, the business plans are often far more aggressive and would be targeting turnover of $50million+ in the same timescale. Of course the US is a much larger marketplace but there's the mindset issue that's holding people back.
And of course, the funding for scale up is far, far harder in the UK than the US...


Fundamentally a big part of the problem is us. We don't get the big tech results as so few of us actually try.
It's not all doom and gloom for those who try. The UK medical startup sector is doing really well and there's a lot of good stuff happening. However they virtually never make a big deal out of it so hardly anyone knows what it's done.

Yes, that's a bit of a depressing assessment.
Mr Toad
 

Broucek

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In a globalised world, certain countries will tend to do particularly well in certain fields. The US punches above its already considerable weight in tech, we do the same in financial services, mining companies and (on a much smaller scale) motorsport and so on, the Danes are outsize in life sciences and so on. We therefore should not *necessarily* bewail that certain industries are dominated by other countries - it's the economic theory of relative competitive advantage.

And being owned abroad is not an obstacle to British jobs. My own company has 3000 staff in the UK and is American owned. And the aforementioned Arm still has many jobs in Cambridge despite the SoftBank acquisition.
 

yorksrob

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And the aforementioned Arm still has many jobs in Cambridge despite the SoftBank acquisition.

Yes, but where are the profits going ?

When British owned, they would have gone into British companies, investors and pension funds. Now they're being siphoned off abroad.

Doubtless someone in the City will have made a packet though. Flaming Ferraris all round !
 

coppercapped

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The answers to why the UK hasn't grown (many) huge tech companies is something I spent 10+ years trying to solve. It was ultimately quite depressing...

Many won't believe it but there is plenty of money and support for new ideas and companies in the UK. There is *far* more targeted and decent public support than I've ever found in the USA (especially compared to the Bay Area / Silicon Valley). For example, here in Northern Ireland there are TV adverts encourage people to get public funding to start their ideas.
Private inventors / venture capital support is admittedly patchy - the further you get from London / Oxford / Cambridge the harder it is.
Private US early stage investment is often far more onerous than the equivalent UK terms for individuals.

A significant part of the problem is few people want to try.
For a while I ran a small fund to develop research and at times I couldn't give the money away as there was no interest.
It's worst in the computing / tech sector. Here there are plenty of well paid jobs, at all levels, and getting a stable job is more attractive than working really hard to grow your own company.

Then there's the fear of failure. This is a big cultural difference between the US and the UK. In the UK if you get it wrong and your idea fails causing everyone to loose their money your reputation is trashed. There's an utterly unrealistic expectation that no UK start ups will fail and it's the boss' fault if they do. In the US, failure isn't so much tolerated as expected and celebrated as a learning experience.
This puts people off from even trying.

If you can get the something going there's a huge lack of vision for UK tech startups compared to US ones. A UK company will often look to grow to turnover of £1million in a few years. In the US, the business plans are often far more aggressive and would be targeting turnover of $50million+ in the same timescale. Of course the US is a much larger marketplace but there's the mindset issue that's holding people back.
And of course, the funding for scale up is far, far harder in the UK than the US...


Fundamentally a big part of the problem is us. We don't get the big tech results as so few of us actually try.
It's not all doom and gloom for those who try. The UK medical startup sector is doing really well and there's a lot of good stuff happening. However they virtually never make a big deal out of it so hardly anyone knows what it's done.

Yes, that's a bit of a depressing assessment.
Mr Toad
This is, from my experience, an accurate description of the reason why the US tech industry - specifically computers and IT infrastructure - has been more successful than the European equivalents. Specifically the key sentence is the one about failure - the Americans accept it as a learning process whereas here it's seen as incompetence and in Germany its seen as practically a criminal matter as you have wasted other people's money.

The other side of the coin is that, if successful, in the US the entrepreneur is lauded on becoming rich and congratulated in generating so much wealth and jobs. Here there is an atmosphere of envy of the person's new riches and the feeling that there must be some underhand activity going on in order to be able to make so much money.

If creating the likes of Microsoft, Apple, Intel, Cisco and the like is desired to happen here, then these attitudes to wealth will have to change.

We have the City of London, which should provide a rich source of capital for new business/industry. Unfortunately it seems better at denuding the country of industry for its own gain.

I feel like it's more difficult to get funding / business loans here. Imagine a teenager went to a UK bank for a business loan for their 'facebook' idea in 2004? Do you think the bank would lend to them
To both of these quotes - banks are not in the venture capital business and neither in the US nor here would they put money into a start-up.

This thread essentially has the sub-title 'Why don't we have a Silicon Valley/technology hub here which produces large companies?' I'll try to answer this question and the main answer is that only two kinds of people are needed to create a technology hub: rich people and nerds. They're the limiting reagents in the reaction that produces startups, because they're the only ones present when startups get started.

This is one of the things that fascinated me about working for Apple - the company car parks were full of expensive cars - Porsches, Ferraris, BMWs, Mercedes, Jaguars and top end US pick-up trucks and SUVs. How did that happen? So I looked into it so I'm sorry if the next bit may be TLDR as it's one of my interests... :D

The defining quality of Silicon Valley is not that Intel or Apple or Google have offices there, but that they were started there.

So if you want to reproduce Silicon Valley, what you need to reproduce is those two or three founders sitting around a kitchen table deciding to start a company. And to reproduce that you need those people. All the other people needed to run a company will move to where the start-ups are located.

The most important thing to note is, all you need are the people. If you could attract a critical mass of nerds and investors to live somewhere, you could reproduce Silicon Valley. And both groups are highly mobile. They'll go where life is good. So what makes a place good to them?

What nerds like are other nerds. Smart people will go wherever other smart people are. And in particular, to great universities but, in addition, in order to spawn startups, your university has to be in a town that has attractions other than the university - it has to be a place where investors want to live, and students want to stay after they graduate. This is why Oxford and Cambridge have been so successful in the UK context - the towns and the surroundings are nice places to live. Silicon Valley has San Francisco, Monterey, the Pacific coast and the northern Californian climate.

Are the rich people really needed? Wouldn't it work to have the banks or government invest in the nerds? No, it would not. Startup investors are a distinct type of rich people - they tend to have a lot of experience themselves in the technology business. This (a) helps them pick the right startups, and (b) means they can supply advice as well as money. And the fact that they have a personal stake in the outcome makes them really pay attention.

Bureaucrats in both banks and government are, by their nature, the exact opposite sort of people from startup investors. The idea of them making startup investments is comic. It would be like mathematicians running Vogue.

I could go on, but you get the drift.
 

Broucek

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Yes, but where are the profits going ?

When British owned, they would have gone into British companies, investors and pension funds. Now they're being siphoned off abroad.

Doubtless someone in the City will have made a packet though. Flaming Ferraris all round !
Well, the UK shareholders (including every single employee) made a huge gain on the sale. I don’t think the profits generated since are comparable to that.

(I do understand your point, but sometimes a sale at a huge price is not a bad thing.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Wouldn't it work to have the banks or government invest in the nerds? No, it would not. Startup investors are a distinct type of rich people - they tend to have a lot of experience themselves in the technology business. This (a) helps them pick the right startups, and (b) means they can supply advice as well as money. And the fact that they have a personal stake in the outcome makes them really pay attention.

Bureaucrats in both banks and government are, by their nature, the exact opposite sort of people from startup investors. The idea of them making startup investments is comic. It would be like mathematicians running Vogue.

I could go on, but you get the drift.
You win the internet today
 

coppercapped

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Well, the UK shareholders (including every single employee) made a huge gain on the sale. I don’t think the profits generated since are comparable to that.

(I do understand your point, but sometimes a sale at a huge price is not a bad thing.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


You win the internet today
Why, thank you! :D
 
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