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Why don't you cycle?

Why don't you cycle?


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Falcon1200

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Anecdatally, a cycling fatality from a colleague of a friend, was a experienced cyclist who was riding on a dual carriageway bit of the A34 near Didcot.

That's sad to hear. I used to cycle on the A34 south of Oxford, to go trainspotting at Didcot, but that was soon after the Abingdon bypass section opened in the 1970s - I would not go near it on a bike now. The pity is that segregated cycling infrastructure was not provided alongside the road.
 
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JamesT

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That's sad to hear. I used to cycle on the A34 south of Oxford, to go trainspotting at Didcot, but that was soon after the Abingdon bypass section opened in the 1970s - I would not go near it on a bike now. The pity is that segregated cycling infrastructure was not provided alongside the road.
There is a Sustrans route for Oxford - Abingdon - Didcot which at least partially follows the railway line rather than the A34 https://www.sustrans.org.uk/find-a-route-on-the-national-cycle-network/hanson-way/
 

lachlan

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That's sad to hear. I used to cycle on the A34 south of Oxford, to go trainspotting at Didcot, but that was soon after the Abingdon bypass section opened in the 1970s - I would not go near it on a bike now. The pity is that segregated cycling infrastructure was not provided alongside the road.
Sadly we're still building dual carriageways/ dualling existing roads without providing cycle infrastructure.
 

WibbleWobble

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I cannot pick an option - I don't cycle as I have balance issues, which means I just cannot stay on a bike!
 

Trainbike46

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I cannot pick an option - I don't cycle as I have balance issues, which means I just cannot stay on a bike!
If you want to cycle (and obviously no pressure!) there are adapted bicycles available for people with balance issues, one solution is to instead make it a tricycle
 

The Ham

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Sadly we're still building dual carriageways/ dualling existing roads without providing cycle infrastructure.

Since the publication of LTN 1/20 and the creation of Active Travel England this should be less of a thing.

Of course there's still going to be examples, however they should be the exception rather than the rule (which they were all too recently).
 

bspahh

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Since the publication of LTN 1/20 and the creation of Active Travel England this should be less of a thing.

Of course there's still going to be examples, however they should be the exception rather than the rule (which they were all too recently).
Dual carriageways and cycling aren't a great fit. Cycling next to a busy road is noisy, and in heavy rain the spray will give you a coating of road grime. It also means that there will be conflicts at junctions

Its fair enough if its a route in a built up area, where there isn't an alternative route for a cycle path. However, if there is space, I would rather spend the money on a route that is less noisy, with less traffic around it and less grime.
 

The Ham

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Dual carriageways and cycling aren't a great fit. Cycling next to a busy road is noisy, and in heavy rain the spray will give you a coating of road grime. It also means that there will be conflicts at junctions

Its fair enough if its a route in a built up area, where there isn't an alternative route for a cycle path. However, if there is space, I would rather spend the money on a route that is less noisy, with less traffic around it and less grime.

Which is why LTN 1/20 says that there should be a minimum horizontal separation between carriageway and cycleway which increases with speed of traffic.

For example at 70mph the recommended distance is 3.5m with an absolute minimum of 3m. Whilst that's still probably not great it's going to reduce the impact, especially if you can be a further 2m away due to the width of the cycleway and at least 1m further away due to hard strips within the carriageway.

Also, as long as forward visibility allows there would be a good case for providing some planting which would provide some additional screening from spray.

Junctions are always going to be an issue, however, on high speed roads with merge/diverge tapers they are not great places for cyclists to be and so often cyclists (on carriageway) are advised to effectively cross the road by coming off the main carriageway crossing the off slip, carrying on a bit before crossing the on slip and then running alongside the merge. As such, if they follow the advice, would be impacted by the junction anyway.

However with minimum junction spacings (due to the issues associated with weaving), it's unlikely that many cyclists would be passing more than about 3 junctions anyway on a 70mph road. As such it's not like a 30mph road where there's junctions every 50m which really impacts on the speed of cycling.
 

styles

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Whilst legal, its madness to cycle on a dual carriageway. I rarely ever overtake a lorry, unless it is stationary and unlikely to move such as at traffic lights. It's not worth the risk. Plus I wouldn't travel on roads with speed limits more than 30mph, again not worth the risk. Of course some of these types of roads have a shared pavement that it is permissible to cycle on which I am happy to use where available.
There are also some dual carriageways where it is illegal, namely 'special roads' as they are technically called. These roads, like parts of the A40 West way in London, A55 in north Wales, or A720 Edinburgh bypass; have motorway-like regulations banning pedestrians, cycling, animals etc.

Doesn't completely stop some determined individuals mind!
 

Sir Felix Pole

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Sadly we're still building dual carriageways/ dualling existing roads without providing cycle infrastructure.
Yes, yet the 'arterial roads' of the '30s have cycle tracks - the East Lancs is one example although it has been degraded at junctions in places with the space taken for additional traffic lanes. To be fair, the new parts of the A555 Mcr Airport Relief Road have a cycle track - it is fun zooming past the standing traffic. A case study of induced traffic demand!
 

Stewart2887

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Sadly we're still building dual carriageways/ dualling existing roads without providing cycle infrastructure.
No cyclist should be on that bit of the A34. Dangerous enough in a car. Plenty other similar situations elsewhere I guess
 

renegademaster

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The new part of the A21 has a relatively useful cycle path. It solves the slip road problem by not crossing any, but at the Tonbridge end it has a toucan crossing and a shared use path into Tonbridge


The slip road issue can easily be solved by providing underpasses, the noise while not ideal is put upabble with, it's not like cycling on a 60mph single carriageway a road is especially pleasant.
 

lachlan

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It seems like underpasses are being filled in around the UK which is a shame as they are great for cycling. An underpass if done well (sufficiently wide and well lit) doesn't have to be dingy.
 

61653 HTAFC

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It seems like underpasses are being filled in around the UK which is a shame as they are great for cycling. An underpass if done well (sufficiently wide and well lit) doesn't have to be dingy.
Aren't many of the underpasses being filled in of a 1960s vintage though? It's all well and good saying "if done well", but many of those built in the past were not done well and feel quite hostile to cyclists and pedestrians. An underpass built in 1960 isn't necessarily going to be easy to bring up to a decent standard.
 

styles

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Doesn't help that we're still not listening to cyclists on why they don't use cycle lanes:


[Over the last decade and more, millions of pounds have been spent in Wigan and Greater Manchester, creating cycle lanes, often at the expense of road space for motorised vehicles in order to encourage more people to use healthier modes of transport and reduce pollution.

But as this image taken this week in Leigh by Quinton Smith shows, not all users of two-wheelers are appreciative of the facilities created for them.

...

Cyclist Jim Crooke from Shevington said: “I do use cycle lanes but sometimes they impede your journey.

"If you’re following one along a main road, you have to stop, like a pedestrian, at every side road, whereas if you stay on the road, you just breeze along with the cars, so it’s difficult not to be tempted to go on the road.[/quote]

This happens every time a cycle lane is added to a pavement and the give way line remains on the minor road is set at the nearside of the main carriageway, forcing cyclists on the cycle lane to give way at every T junction, while cyclists on the main carriageway cycle past the junctions.

It's also against LTN 1/20 advice on designing cycling infrastructure.
 

Bikeman78

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Doesn't help that we're still not listening to cyclists on why they don't use cycle lanes:


[Over the last decade and more, millions of pounds have been spent in Wigan and Greater Manchester, creating cycle lanes, often at the expense of road space for motorised vehicles in order to encourage more people to use healthier modes of transport and reduce pollution.

But as this image taken this week in Leigh by Quinton Smith shows, not all users of two-wheelers are appreciative of the facilities created for them.

...

Cyclist Jim Crooke from Shevington said: “I do use cycle lanes but sometimes they impede your journey.

"If you’re following one along a main road, you have to stop, like a pedestrian, at every side road, whereas if you stay on the road, you just breeze along with the cars, so it’s difficult not to be tempted to go on the road.
This happens every time a cycle lane is added to a pavement and the give way line remains on the minor road is set at the nearside of the main carriageway, forcing cyclists on the cycle lane to give way at every T junction, while cyclists on the main carriageway cycle past the junctions.

It's also against LTN 1/20 advice on designing cycling infrastructure.


There are plenty of reasons why I often don't use the cycle lanes. I can usually ride at a steady 15 mph. If the cycle lane doesn't allow me to do that, I will go on the road. Most of my ride to work is on a bus lane, so I'm only delaying the occasional taxi. Buses rarely catch up and stop a few seconds later.

Other problems with cycle lanes:
People often park on them, even the segregated ones. The worst culprits are the vans that clean the bus shelters. Why not park in the bus lane?

The two way lanes are risky when riding against traffic flow because hardly anyone looks left if they turn left emerging from a side road. They only check for vehicles approaching from the right.

In autumn they are covered in leaves and standing water. Also the vegetation is growing well across the lane in several places.

The traffic light sensors are poor and often ignore waiting cyclists, forcing them to wait another complete cycle of the lights.
 

styles

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There are plenty of reasons why I often don't use the cycle lanes. I can usually ride at a steady 15 mph. If the cycle lane doesn't allow me to do that, I will go on the road. Most of my ride to work is on a bus lane, so I'm only delaying the occasional taxi. Buses rarely catch up and stop a few seconds later.

Other problems with cycle lanes:
People often park on them, even the segregated ones. The worst culprits are the vans that clean the bus shelters. Why not park in the bus lane?

The two way lanes are risky when riding against traffic flow because hardly anyone looks left if they turn left emerging from a side road. They only check for vehicles approaching from the right.

In autumn they are covered in leaves and standing water. Also the vegetation is growing well across the lane in several places.

The traffic light sensors are poor and often ignore waiting cyclists, forcing them to wait another complete cycle of the lights.
Yep, agree with all of this, and LTN 1/20 mentions (almost?) all of these issues.

But it gets ignored in favour of cost or vocal driver opposition.

They put shared pedestrian and cyclist areas in as a 'last resort' (the exact words), yet we still see these rolled out across the country. Pedestrians dislike they'll just as much as cyclists. They can be used sparingly for short stretches where it really isn't feasible to do anything else, but that's not the reality.

In that Wigan article I posted there's a driver complaining there's been a small uptake but it's hardly Amsterdam. Well if you want Amsterdam levels of cycling you need Amsterdam style infrastructure (as well as a longer term cultural shift etc). You can't just put a bit of paint on the nearside of the carriageway and hope people will flock to it.
 

Bikeman78

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Yep, agree with all of this, and LTN 1/20 mentions (almost?) all of these issues.

But it gets ignored in favour of cost or vocal driver opposition.

They put shared pedestrian and cyclist areas in as a 'last resort' (the exact words), yet we still see these rolled out across the country. Pedestrians dislike they'll just as much as cyclists. They can be used sparingly for short stretches where it really isn't feasible to do anything else, but that's not the reality.

In that Wigan article I posted there's a driver complaining there's been a small uptake but it's hardly Amsterdam. Well if you want Amsterdam levels of cycling you need Amsterdam style infrastructure (as well as a longer term cultural shift etc). You can't just put a bit of paint on the nearside of the carriageway and hope people will flock to it.
Joint use pavements appear to have little logic. Are there are specifications regarding minimum width or number of pedestrians that would determine whether or not a stretch of pavement is suitable? I've pasted some street view links below. The first is Newport Road. I'm not going to ride at 15 mph past people's front doors that open straight onto the pavement. So I ride in the bus lane. The second is Adam Street, by the prison. A wide relatively wide pavement next to a busy road without a bus lane but not designated joint use. Where's the logic?

Newport Road showing joint use pavement and bus lane.

Adam Street
 

styles

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Joint use pavements appear to have little logic. Are there are specifications regarding minimum width or number of pedestrians that would determine whether or not a stretch of pavement is suitable? I've pasted some street view links below. The first is Newport Road. I'm not going to ride at 15 mph past people's front doors that open straight onto the pavement. So I ride in the bus lane. The second is Adam Street, by the prison. A wide relatively wide pavement next to a busy road without a bus lane but not designated joint use. Where's the logic?

Newport Road showing joint use pavement and bus lane.

Adam Street
It starts to get a bit complicated.

The first paragraph in LTN 1/20 about allocation of highway (the highway includes the pavements and verges) space specifically says it shouldn't come from pedestrian space, but main carriageway space, where possible. So the principle is there from the outset.

But some carriageways may be narrow already. The guidance does point out that while urban carriageways do tend to meet a minimum of X metres wide (I can't remember the exact number), they needn't be, especially in e.g. residential areas where it may simply be accepted that low-volumes of large vehicles need to wait for a gap, that sort of thing.

For pedestrians the greater concern is often for wheelchair and mobility scooter users. Not just the pavement being wide enough for them to travel in a straight line, but having the width to account for a chair's turning radius, and also for two wheelchair users to pass each other. Ultimately, the DfT guidance says they should be at least 2 metres wide.

Of course, what we're often doing here is retrofitting cycling infrastructure onto roads which were never built for cars but unless you have a very strong anti-car will now need to accommodate cars and usually at least one row of parking. So highways authorities (local councils usually) make compromises and they say well this is outside a primary school so we should leave lots of room for pedestrians as there'll be a hundred families here at 3pm, but this road over here is on the border of a residential grid and actually very few people walk it so maybe we take 75% of the space for this new cycleway from the main carriageway, and 25% of the space from the pavement, and in the unlikely event two wheelchair users need to pass they can work it out. That sort of thing anyway.

I've spot checked a couple of those and, imprecisely using the 'measure distance' feature on Google Maps, found they're often around 1.3m for pedestrians - sometimes a little more, often a bit less. Under the Disability Discrimination Act (before it was replaced with the Equality Act 2010), the recommended minimum was technically set at 1.2m.

To complicate things slightly further, public rights of way footpaths, bridleways, and byways are also highways, and covered by the Highways Act. The minimum width of a footpath in the act is set at 1.0m, unless it is a field-edge footpath, in which case it is 1.5m, and for a bridleway (can be used by pedestrians, cyclists, and horseriders), it is 2.0m or 3.0m respectively.

But.. all of this technicality aside, I would just look at the setup.

This is a screengrab from from the first Google Maps link, turned 180 degrees:

1753007499612.png
On the left, that is a bi-directional cycle lane. I'm not convinced I'd like to pass too many cyclists coming the opposite direction that space, especially stopping for every T-junction.

On the right is the pedestrian area. Apart from some people being too wide to fit through the gap between the sign poles, particularly some wheelchair or mobility scooter users, you also have the superstitious pedestrians who don't walk under signs. In any case, I am betting the majority of pedestrians would walk in the cycle lane side of this space.

If I were a confident cyclist (which I happen to be), I'm going to stick to the road, which is a 24hr bus/pedal cycle/motorcycle/taxi lane. If I were a not-so-confident cyclist, I might not bother cycling at all because neither options feel great or safe. I'd go as far as saying that a lot (maybe not a majority) of people who would use it are people who would cycle on the pavement anyway.
 

Bikeman78

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It starts to get a bit complicated.

The first paragraph in LTN 1/20 about allocation of highway (the highway includes the pavements and verges) space specifically says it shouldn't come from pedestrian space, but main carriageway space, where possible. So the principle is there from the outset.

But some carriageways may be narrow already. The guidance does point out that while urban carriageways do tend to meet a minimum of X metres wide (I can't remember the exact number), they needn't be, especially in e.g. residential areas where it may simply be accepted that low-volumes of large vehicles need to wait for a gap, that sort of thing.

For pedestrians the greater concern is often for wheelchair and mobility scooter users. Not just the pavement being wide enough for them to travel in a straight line, but having the width to account for a chair's turning radius, and also for two wheelchair users to pass each other. Ultimately, the DfT guidance says they should be at least 2 metres wide.

Of course, what we're often doing here is retrofitting cycling infrastructure onto roads which were never built for cars but unless you have a very strong anti-car will now need to accommodate cars and usually at least one row of parking. So highways authorities (local councils usually) make compromises and they say well this is outside a primary school so we should leave lots of room for pedestrians as there'll be a hundred families here at 3pm, but this road over here is on the border of a residential grid and actually very few people walk it so maybe we take 75% of the space for this new cycleway from the main carriageway, and 25% of the space from the pavement, and in the unlikely event two wheelchair users need to pass they can work it out. That sort of thing anyway.

I've spot checked a couple of those and, imprecisely using the 'measure distance' feature on Google Maps, found they're often around 1.3m for pedestrians - sometimes a little more, often a bit less. Under the Disability Discrimination Act (before it was replaced with the Equality Act 2010), the recommended minimum was technically set at 1.2m.

To complicate things slightly further, public rights of way footpaths, bridleways, and byways are also highways, and covered by the Highways Act. The minimum width of a footpath in the act is set at 1.0m, unless it is a field-edge footpath, in which case it is 1.5m, and for a bridleway (can be used by pedestrians, cyclists, and horseriders), it is 2.0m or 3.0m respectively.

But.. all of this technicality aside, I would just look at the setup.

This is a screengrab from from the first Google Maps link, turned 180 degrees:

View attachment 184464
On the left, that is a bi-directional cycle lane. I'm not convinced I'd like to pass too many cyclists coming the opposite direction that space, especially stopping for every T-junction.

On the right is the pedestrian area. Apart from some people being too wide to fit through the gap between the sign poles, particularly some wheelchair or mobility scooter users, you also have the superstitious pedestrians who don't walk under signs. In any case, I am betting the majority of pedestrians would walk in the cycle lane side of this space.

If I were a confident cyclist (which I happen to be), I'm going to stick to the road, which is a 24hr bus/pedal cycle/motorcycle/taxi lane. If I were a not-so-confident cyclist, I might not bother cycling at all because neither options feel great or safe. I'd go as far as saying that a lot (maybe not a majority) of people who would use it are people who would cycle on the pavement anyway.
There are so few cyclists that passing another is not a problem. It gets a lot more messy on the far end of the row of houses in my original link. See link below. Are cyclists heading west meant to rejoin the road or not? There are still joint use signs on the lamp posts.

Street view of Newport Road.

This is slightly further west again, at the junction with Rover Way. Very narrow, and the vegetation often grows out further. If you turn left and head along Rover Way, at what point does it cease to be a joint use pavement? It's no less suitable further around the corner than it is at this point.
 

styles

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There are so few cyclists that passing another is not a problem. It gets a lot more messy on the far end of the row of houses in my original link. See link below. Are cyclists heading west meant to rejoin the road or not? There are still joint use signs on the lamp posts.

Street view of Newport Road.

This is slightly further west again, at the junction with Rover Way. Very narrow, and the vegetation often grows out further. If you turn left and head along Rover Way, at what point does it cease to be a joint use pavement? It's no less suitable further around the corner than it is at this point.
Sure but my point is kind of that people aren't going to cycle if they have infrastructure like this.

When high quality cycling infrastructure is built, unless it's a true vanity project, people use it. When local authorities half bake it by painting a line down a pavement or the nearside of a road in the door zone of parked cars, people generally don't.

The examples you've given are ambiguous at best, simply poor design at worst.

"Cyclists rejoin carriageway" is probably one of the worst, forcing clearly not very experienced cyclists into traffic which can be doing ridiculous speeds.

If we could stop doing this, that would be grand.
 

Bikeman78

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Sure but my point is kind of that people aren't going to cycle if they have infrastructure like this.

When high quality cycling infrastructure is built, unless it's a true vanity project, people use it. When local authorities half bake it by painting a line down a pavement or the nearside of a road in the door zone of parked cars, people generally don't.

The examples you've given are ambiguous at best, simply poor design at worst.

"Cyclists rejoin carriageway" is probably one of the worst, forcing clearly not very experienced cyclists into traffic which can be doing ridiculous speeds.

If we could stop doing this, that would be grand.
To be clear, I'm in agreement with you. I virtually never use this so called cycle lane. It wouldn't be any use if I went cycling with my kids because it fizzles out completely at the Royal Oak pub. There is then no provision for cyclists until the cross city cycle lane starts 0.7 miles further west at the junction with Orbit Street. But, as I've already mentioned, I refuse to ride against the traffic flow and I definitely wouldn't take my kids along such a lane. To be honest, if this is the best the UK government can do, they might as well give up and spend the money on something else.
 

pokemonsuper9

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[Over the last decade and more, millions of pounds have been spent in Wigan and Greater Manchester, creating cycle lanes, often at the expense of road space for motorised vehicles in order to encourage more people to use healthier modes of transport and reduce pollution.
Elsewhere in Wigan, there is a very good cycle lane for a grand total of 362 metres, before dumping into the road at either end (A577 just south of Wigan North Western to Wigan Pier)
 

Krokodil

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Are there are specifications regarding minimum width
According to a retired highway engineer I know, there are. Which is his excuse for a local shared path abruptly chucking bikes back into the road.

So highways authorities (local councils usually) make compromises and they say well this is outside a primary school so we should leave lots of room for pedestrians as there'll be a hundred families here at 3pm,
Outside schools they should be closing the street off to motorised vehicles where possible.

"Cyclists rejoin carriageway" is probably one of the worst, forcing clearly not very experienced cyclists into traffic which can be doing ridiculous speeds.

If we could stop doing this, that would be grand.
Along with "cyclists dismount".
 

Falcon1200

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This happens every time a cycle lane is added to a pavement and the give way line remains on the minor road is set at the nearside of the main carriageway, forcing cyclists on the cycle lane to give way at every T junction, while cyclists on the main carriageway cycle past the junctions.

Near where I grew up in Oxford there are cycle lanes part of the way along Marston Road. I never used them when cycling to school as the junction markings meant that vehicles to or from the side roads blocked them. And, despite the road markings having been moved to prevent this, I would not use them now as I do not trust motorists at all, to notice, let alone observe, them.
 
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