WHy dont we have Double Deck EMUs in UK?

[raildog]

One of the key issues in UK rail is that of congestion and overcrowding in trains.

This can be greatly reduced by using Double Deck coaches.

Weight would be an issue.. but UK unlike other countries has the same tracks for freight and passengers. So Double decks can also be accomodated.

Only issue I see is that of tunnels (Southampton?? Stoke?). But that should not stop double deck EMU's running on lines which can accomodate them..

So why not a DD EMU on UK rail?

- RD

 

[matt]

The main issue is that many bridges and tunnels would have to re-built. Overhead wires would also have to be made higher

 

[Callufrax]

The main issue is that many bridges and tunnels would have to re-built. Overhead wires would also have to be made higher

Exactly. The OLE would have to be considerably higher - probably by as much as another metre. A 390 is, according to therailwaycentre.com, is 3.56 metres high. French DD coaches, according to Wikipedia, have a maximum allowable height of 4.2 metres - which don't have above-window luggage racks.

 

[Ascot]

Can't think of many high volume intercity routes that has no tunnels or bridges etc.. don't think the Stourbridge line covers high d.

 

[Bonemaster]

We did have a few units that were double deckers and 2 survive some info on them is here http://www.semg.org.uk/gallery/4dd.html

Some were suggested a few years ago for the Wimbledon line

However there are many obstacles to them mostly being a restricted guage. I came accross a paper on the development of them a few weeks ago here http://www.dft.gov.uk/about/strateg...railwhitepapersupportingdocs/provevalddtrains which pretty much rules them out for now anyways

 

[mbonwick]

Basically put, it's a question of cost!

 

[Bonemaster]

Basically put, it's a question of cost!

and very limited extra capacity, having travelled on French RER services you can see that half of the coach is full with stairs and at peak times dwell is increased by the time it takes for people to get down the stairs

So to be simple its a question of not only cost, limited extra capacity and longer journey times, however there will be lines and stations where platform lengthening is just not possible, then they may become the only option

 

[puziparrot]

Also, a problem highlighted with the 4DDs, is the fact that to give them more room, they made the wheels/bogies smaller, and were prone to cracking. i dont know weather this would be a problem these days. Another reason for withdrawal from service is the complaints of passengers smelling the feet of the passengers above! I have an old set of newsreels on DVD, which i have taken this information from. It is sold by Video 125 if any of you are interested...

 

[Mojo]

Another problem, due to the fact these units require plenty of staircases, there is not actually that a big increase in capacity of seated passengers. Also, DD trains I've been on in Germany don't tend to have luggage racks due to the maximum height, meaning more space is needed for luggage, thus less seats and standing room.

Whilst I think that any new lines built in the UK should be made to cope with European Double Deck loading gauge, I'm sure it is actually far cheaper, and will deliver a greater capacity increase to add to train lengths up to maximum levels permitted and lengthen platforms past that to possibly include one day 16 car trains (or greater).

 

[Oracle]

If you look up the 4DD Bulleid suburban trains, used doen to Dartford, you will see the problems that were had with loading gauge, clearances, discharging passengers, etc.

 

[me123]

If it were to happen here, basically, it would be a long way away. And I hope it doesn't happen, because single deck High Speed Trains would have a slower speed because of a pantograph sticking up about 2 meters high.

They work well abroad, but won't do here.

 

[86242]

As I understand the CTRL is built to a European loading gauge so maybe one day double decker TGVs will come into the country...

 

[raildog]

Hmmm.. going by the responses here, it pretty much rules out DD coaches in Britain.

But what may interest you is that Bombardier is said to be designing a new generation of DD coaches and EMUs which could be used in Britain and maybe even used in the Thameslink bid. Maybe they are working on it in Derby right now!!

Argument against DD - Sustainability report wants lighter eco-friendly units in Phase 1 and 2 but does not rule out the possibility of heavier trains in Phase 3 which can happen around 2010 which is the designated year of launch for Bombardiers new gen DD coaches. Maybe Bombardier has a work around for the UK gauge and OLE issues!!

-RD