Why don't drivers operate train doors?

[CosherB]

On our local line (Crewe - Manchester) we have 323 EMUs. The guard has to collect fares as some stations are un-manned, so makes his way up the train taking credit-card pyments or issuing change as he sells tickets. When the train arrives at the next station, he has to make his way to the doors to activate them for opening (thus extending the dwell time), then close them, then make his way back to where he was, also collecting fares from any new boarders from that station stop as he goes up the train.

All the time the train is in the station, the driver is sitting in his cab with nothing to do. Why can't he unlock the doors, and close them before departure?

 

[Mojo]

Because the unions don't like it, erosion of guard's responsibilities and all that. A system you propose sounds similar to the original Strathclyde Manning Agreement though, where the system was set up similar to DOO, but with a rostered guard for each train, who generally focussed on customer assistance and revenue but would perform guard duties if necessary.

Also bear in mind that on some units like 150s the door buttons aren't set up for drivers to operate them, and there would need to be adequate provision in place (either look-back, CCTV or mirrors) for the driver to ensure it is safe to close the doors. If agreed to, something similar to what happens on Pendolinos, with the driver opening the doors and the guard closing them, or on Voyagers and Chiltern services north of Banbury, where the driver opens them, and closes them (but with the guard giving 1-2 on the bell).

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Safety. The driver can't see anything near as much as the guard can. That's why all tube stations have mirrors and/or cameras at the end of the platform, to enable the driver to see the full length of the train and platform.

 

[paul1609]

On 377s the Driver opens the doors, The guard closes them (except on DOO services)

 

[me123]

In Glasgow we have ticket inspectors on electric services, and guards on diesel services. I do think that DOO has benefits on these short distance services; bear in mind that the ticket inspectors still sell tickets and assist passengers as guards do; the only difference really is the doors.

The worst example I've seen is the 0807 Whifflet-Glasgow Central; that now runs with 1 guard and one ticket inspector but the time spent at the doors means long queues on arrival into Central.

 

[yorkie]

Why can't he unlock the doors, and close them before departure?

Because Bob Crow would throw a major wobbler if any more routes were made DOO

 

[charley_17/7]

FNW, the previous franchisee, looked at introducing DOO, but backtracked due to costs.

I worked out for all the effort (cost!) of putting in mirrors, cameras, disruption, incidents, etc., it would be cheaper to give the existing guards a pay rise, and recruit more new ones.

First line to be thought about was the Buxton route.

However, the Manchester - Wilmslow - Crewe route would have been ideal, with long, straight platforms, and RA/dispatch at busy locations (Stockport, Airport, Wilmslow, Crewe).

 

[O L Leigh]

The main problem with most stock is where the door key is in. If the driver is to have control of the doors then the key has to be in the leading cab, but this then means that a guard may not be able to close the doors from his/her location because there would need to be a key in at that location. Having two keys in isn't an option either as it can overload the door circuits and potentially cause a major fault or even fuse the contacts inside the door key switch. The instruction we were given on our traction training is that we ever found ourselves in a situation where we'd inadvertantly had two door keys in we should call the fitters to inspect the train before taking it in service.

Incidentally, there should be no reason why Sprinters at least can't be worked as DOO, as the driver's position should be fine for "look back" working. If I can safely look back down 8 cars of train for DOO working on a train that is in many ways identical to a Cl150 I fail to see what is so unsafe about doing it on a 2 car DMU. However, that is speaking purely from a technical perspective. I don't support the expansion of DOO working.

O L Leigh

 

[driver9000]

I dont support DOO but purely for trivia, all 14x and 15x series DMUs were built with DOO in mind and had door release buttons on the desks and close buttons over the side windows including the secondmans side, 142s had both open/close buttons over the windows. After BR dropped DOO the buttons were dewired but left in place, some cabs have lost them all together now.

 

[RMTGuard]

No D.O.O.

 

[krus_aragon]

Class 175 DMUs were built to have their doors opened by drivers, with the guard closing them. Arguments meant that didn't happen, and the guard would have to make his way to the rear of the train at each stop open the doors. I heard one Arriva guard mention that he preferred working 158s for this very reason. The units have recently been retrofitted to allow door operation from mid-train: the last few units have just been done.

See http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw0903f.htm (Class 175 Changes) for more details.

 

[turbo mick]

The FGW 165/166 fleet i drive,the doors are only operated by the driver whether you have a guard or DOO and buzzer codes for close doors and right away

It has its pros and cons i like being on my own but for the safety issues i would have a guard with me all the time if we had the choice

mick

 

[the sniper]

I was led to believe by a LM Guard that 323's are DOO, using buzzer codes like turbo mick described. Regarding something else in the OP's post, don't the Northern units have a mid-train door control panel any more, most, if not all of the LM ones do? On the rare occasion that LM guards check ticket's on 323's these days, most of them end up using the mid-train panel, though this operation has been further reduced by most LM 323's (on the cross city line anyway) now working in 6 car formations, requiring the guard to be in the middle of the train (at the front of the second unit).

 

[heart-of-wessex]

I have seen a FGW driver at Hungerford doing the DOO, looked a bit awkard how he was standing up pulling away with his head out the half drop window, probably easy if you have done it 100 times

The problem that occurs with DOO is that really it can't be installed for every route, what would happen at a request stop like Avoncliff (or the thousands of them on Heart of Wales, Devon branches etc). Would the RPI have to come along to the front, tell the driver someone wants to get off, then only the RPI would have permission to open the local door at the station, or the driver would need some form of button to do that...which just complicates things.

I guess the same problem would occur with trains needing SDO due to short platforms as well?



Cheers,

James.

 

[me123]

The problem that occurs with DOO is that really it can't be installed for every route...

That makes a lot of sense. DOO on the mainlines would be a disaster in my opinion, as it would on rural lines. However, I think commuter trains really should be converted. On these routes, it makes a lot of sense to have the guard on revenue protection and customer service duty as much as possible, rather than running up and down the train opening the doors.

Again, I'm citing the Whifflet line as a prime example of this. Having the guard on the doors means that passengers are often waiting in very long queues at Central station to purchase a ticket. In contrast, the North Clyde Line (which uses DOO) is actually very good in this respect; despite the train being 3 times as long, I don't think the queues at barriers are as bad. Not a a totally fair comparison as the North Clyde has more ticket offices and machines, but the point still stands.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

more to the point that a guard would also be needed to do doors on HST's obviously..

a full DDO on a pendo would not work as looking down the train to check its clear would be lengthy, and the fact the driver needs to get up and check the train out the cab door, jump back to the cab do press the close doors button and hope that in-between a batch of pax try to get on...and so on...

Local lines would be a good idea indeed, provided theres not too many request stops



cheers,

James.

 

[O L Leigh]

It's easy. They'd just remove all the request stops and make them compulsory.

O L Leigh

 

[Mojo]

Similarly according to an out of date RGS module I have here then trains non-power operated doors may operate as DOO as long as staff are provided at stations to ensure they are closed properly.

DOO is certaintly more suited to commuter routes than long-distance or rural routes; although I would prefer something similar to the Strathclyde Manning Agreement or perhaps driver operated doors but with a full guard required to be present on board.