Why dont all TOCs use the same train?

[bronzeonion]

Why don't the DfT actually design the train first and ask for example Bombardier and Hitachi to build it together so to increase the speed at which a fleet of trains get built and delivered. Of course both manufacturers would have to use the same parts and TMS software. This would be efficient and also means that the DfT can specify exactly what they want rather than make do with the closest match that a company throws at them.

 

[starrymarkb]

Why don't the DfT actually design the train first and ask for example Bombardier and Hitachi to build it together so to increase the speed at which a fleet of trains get built and delivered. Of course both manufacturers would have to use the same parts and TMS software. This would be efficient and also means that the DfT can specify exactly what they want rather than make do with the closest match that a company throws at them.

Didn't the DfT dream up the IEP Camel Class on their own? I think what you are meaning is subcontracting final assembly, I can't see it working to be honest.

 

[bronzeonion]

Didn't the DfT dream up the IEP Camel Class on their own? I think what you are meaning is subcontracting final assembly, I can't see it working to be honest.

Why can't it work?

 

[starrymarkb]

Why can't it work?

Because again if you specify the parts that must be used you have no competition between suppliers and the chosen supplier can hike prices and not innovate either.

If you were to specify a configuration, how long would you keep building to that design. The Southern Region did that and was still building Mk1 designs well into the 1970s even though Mk2 and Mk3 designs were available.

The Design of the Jubilee 1996 stock was frozen in 1991, so it has older GTO traction where as the 1995 stock has more efficient IGBT traction. Would the specifying authority be willing to adapt to technological developments or would the need to maintain standardisation mean that improvements are not incorporated.

 

[GodAtum]

Another further question. Why do some TOCs use class 365, class 222, class 180 and Pendalio/Super Voyager trains for their long-distance routes while SWT uses class 444 trains?

They have the same style of doors at either end of the carriage. The only difference I can tell is that the 444s you can pass through multiple sets. Are the other faster?

 

[sprinterguy]

Another further question. Why do some TOCs use class 365, class 222, class 180 and Pendalio/Super Voyager trains for their long-distance routes while SWT uses class 444 trains?

They have the same style of doors at either end of the carriage. The only difference I can tell is that the 444s you can pass through multiple sets. Are the other faster?

180s, Voyagers, 222s and Pendolinos are all 125mph capable long distance trains, and except in the case of the Pendolino are all diesel units for working non-electrified routes.

The class 444s are 100mph trains for regional routes, that run on third rail power. The 365s are outer suburban units, with doors at the one third and two third bodyside positions, that are also capable of 100mph and are the closest comparison to the 444s out of the different classes that you have listed. All of these train classes have been specified to meet the requirements of a particular route or corridor and/or what the TOC of the moment felt was required to best serve that route in combination with the timetable they had devised.

In short, you couldn’t use 444s on the routes that are operated by 180s, Voyagers, 222s and Pendolinos, as the 444s do not have 125mph capability and are electric units, when many of the routes operated by those other classes (Barring Pendolinos, except for one “dragged” excursion along the North Wales Coast each week) are decidedly off-wires.

As for the 365s, when they were designed and delivered even the concept of the 444 units was a long, long way in the future. SWT procured 444s because that is what Siemens were offering at the time when they were looking for a larger fleet of longer-distance trains than was provided by the 442s alone.

 

[GodAtum]

Thanks for the detailed reply. Hypothetically, SWT could replace the 444 with the 354 or even the Pendalinos?

 

[The Ham]

The class 444s are 100mph trains for regional routes, that run on third rail power.

They also have the option to be converted to be able to run on routes with overhead cables by fitting a Pantograph and transformer.

 

[sprinterguy]

Thanks for the detailed reply. Hypothetically, SWT could replace the 444 with the 354 or even the Pendalinos?

No, the Pendolinos are not designed to be powered from the third rail.

 

[The Ham]

Thanks for the detailed reply. Hypothetically, SWT could replace the 444 with the 354 or even the Pendalinos?

Hypothetically they could use 365's, but there would be little benefit other than about 50 extra seats on a full length train, but then a different train to the 450's so increased maintenance costs and the 444's allow the guard/passengers to walk through the whole train, which is useful for some fo the short station stops.

Pendalinos would be more of a problem as they wouldn't run on 3rd rail so would have to be after the whole length of the routes the 444's run was converted, which won't be any time soon

 

[sprinterguy]

They also have the option to be converted to be able to run on routes with overhead cables by fitting a Pantograph and transformer.

That is true, in keeping with the majority of new third rail EMU classes introduced in the UK since 2000, they feature pantograph wells and would be able to be retro-fitted with the equipment necessary to work off 25kV overheads.

 

[D365]

I know some of this is fantasy but complete and utter standardisation will never happen, especially with the rate of technological development today. For example in the Siemens Desiro UK lineup, 350 to 380 to Desiro City, whilst with Bombardier, 357 to 375/377 to 379 to Aventra. This doesn't just happen on British shores; the German suburban DBAG 423 MegaClass (ADTranz/Bombardier/Alstom) was superseded by the 422 in 2007/8, which has already been replaced by the 430.

Furthermore, let's say that no Desiros made it to UK shores and instead, all services that these run today were provided by Electrostars (375/377). A vital part shared by every trainset is found to be at risk of damage, and all fleets are grounded until the part is changed. The network would come to a standstill. However, if this happened today with Desiros in the mix, this wouldn't be so much of a problem.

And however much I regret to say this, the 507s and 508s on Merseyrail, and the 313s on GN Inner Suburban to Moorgate, may not be replaced by a common 378-type, with 2+2 seating obviously.