Why does TPE operate bi-modes on the WCML?

[deltic08]

Does anyone know why TPE operates 125mph capable class 802s on the WCML where they can only operate at 110mph max between Manchester/Liverpool and Glasgow/Edinburgh when there are sufficient class 397s and the route is completely electrified? Conversely TPE operate 100mph 185 diesel only trains under the wires north of York to Saltburn on 125mph rails as far as Northallerton where 125mph 802s would benefit?.

 

[hexagon789]

Does anyone know why TPE operates 125mph capable class 802s on the WCML where they can only operate at 110mph max between Manchester/Liverpool and Glasgow/Edinburgh when there are sufficient class 397s and the route is completely electrified? Conversely TPE operate 100mph 185 diesel only trains under the wires north of York to Saltburn on 125mph rails as far as Northallerton where 125mph 802s would benefit?.

The 397s only operate at 110 presently. There is one 802 diagram on the WCML for unit cycling to/from Craigentinny/traction knowledge retention; the 802 does run in electric mode on the WCML.

 

[JonathanH]

Does anyone know why TPE operates 125mph capable class 802s on the WCML where they can only operate at 110mph max between Manchester/Liverpool and Glasgow/Edinburgh when there are sufficient class 397s and the route is completely electrified?

397 reliability isn't as good as hoped.

A certain amount of 802 maintenance is done at Craigentinny and TPE no longer run through services on the ECML to Liverpool.

It helps to spread / maintain traincrew knowledge.

Conversely TPE operate 100mph 185 diesel only trains under the wires north of York to Saltburn on 125mph rails as far as Northallerton where 125mph 802s would benefit?.

They run a fair distance on the slow lines where 100mph is sufficient. The distance under the wires is relatively short.

 

[deltic08]

397 reliability isn't as good as hoped.

A certain amount of 802 maintenance is done at Craigentinny and TPE no longer run through services on the ECML to Liverpool.

It helps to spread / maintain traincrew knowledge.


They run a fair distance on the slow lines where 100mph is sufficient. The distance under the wires is relatively short.

Thank you that explains it.
I thought the slow lines between York and Northallerton were only 80mph. From January 2024, the distance between Church Fenton and Northallerton will be 40 miles of electrification all at 125mph apart from through York.

 

[td97]

the 802 does run in electric mode on the WCML.

But diesel between Manchester Airport and Preston (Down direction only). Issues with OLE booster overlaps and proximity to signals on this section of the route.

 

[GhostManDN91]

But diesel between Manchester Airport and Preston (Down direction only). Issues with OLE booster overlaps and proximity to signals on this section of the route.

I went on a 802 on Monday this week the 20:22 from Manchester Piccadilly to Preston (Edinburgh service), it was using it's pantograph the whole run which I was surprised but not complaining about.

 

[Watershed]

The 397s only operate at 110 presently. There is one 802 diagram on the WCML for unit cycling to/from Craigentinny/traction knowledge retention; the 802 does run in electric mode on the WCML.

There's no unit cycling as it's just the one out and back Craigentinny-based diagram. That would have made the whole exercise make a lot more sense but sadly other things intervened...

The reason for the 802 introduction was partly down to the unreliability of the 397s back when the ambition was to run a near-pre-Covid level of service (requiring 10 out of 12 397s in service) and partly down to wanting to retain 802 traction knowledge to allow for diversions along unelectrified lines, e.g. during the Carstairs blockade. Of course, that never came to fruition.

The 397s are still not winning any Golden Spanner awards anytime soon, but the 802 diagram remains as a remnant of previous plans and will probably do so until the next round of cutbacks. It's really sad to think how poor a service is now offered, especially on the popular Liverpool to Glasgow axis, compared to the pre-Covid ambitions.

 

[hexagon789]

especially on the popular Liverpool to Glasgow axis, compared to the pre-Covid ambitions.

Did that ever actually run as the full 3tpd each way?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2023 ==

There's no unit cycling as it's just the one out and back Craigentinny-based diagram. That would have made the whole exercise make a lot more sense but sadly other things intervened...

Ah, fair enough then.

I thought I'd read that in the last thread on the subject of 802s on WCML TPE services but I must have been mistaken.

 

[driver9000]

Did that ever actually run as the full 3tpd each way?

Yes but only for a few months until the first emergency pandemic timetable came into force.

 

[route101]

Yes but only for a few months until the first emergency pandemic timetable came into force.

I remember using a service from Glasgow to Liverpool at 0745am. This has not returned.

 

[Watershed]

Did that ever actually run as the full 3tpd each way?

The full aspiration was 4tpd (one service every 4 hours); that timetable was bid, but then cut back, multiple times post-Covid.

 

[hexagon789]

The full aspiration was 4tpd (one service every 4 hours); that timetable was bid, but then cut back, multiple times post-Covid.

Thanks

 

[driver9000]

I remember using a service from Glasgow to Liverpool at 0745am. This has not returned.

That one went to Liverpool via Earlestown as I recall. Still runs but now terminates at Preston.

 

[Evolution]

Conversely TPE operate 100mph 185 diesel only trains under the wires north of York to Saltburn on 125mph rails as far as Northallerton where 125mph 802s would benefit?

802s work north of York everyday and get up to 125 between York and Newcastle. As mentioned 185s are put on the slows and aren’t under wires for long.

 

[Bikeman78]

The reason for the 802 introduction was partly down to the unreliability of the 397s back when the ambition was to run a near-pre-Covid level of service (requiring 10 out of 12 397s in service)

They can't manage to turn out 10 from 12? Hornsey did it with the 317s for years. In fact, it was often 11 from 12. Meanwhile the 321s had 12 diagrams for 13 units.

 

[Watershed]

They can't manage to turn out 10 from 12? Hornsey did it with the 317s for years. In fact, it was often 11 from 12. Meanwhile the 321s had 12 diagrams for 13 units.

Some trains are more reliable than others, at the end of the day. That being said, one diagram isn't necessarily the same as every other - I wouldn't be surprised if some of those 317 or 321 diagrams were peak-only, allowing time for maintenance between the peaks. 397s diagrams are (or were) some of the most intensive of any unit, often clocking up north of 1000 miles a day with very little time in the depot overnight.

 

[Bikeman78]

Some trains are more reliable than others, at the end of the day. That being said, one diagram isn't necessarily the same as every other - I wouldn't be surprised if some of those 317 or 321 diagrams were peak-only, allowing time for maintenance between the peaks. 397s diagrams are (or were) some of the most intensive of any unit, often clocking up north of 1000 miles a day with very little time in the depot overnight.

That's a fair point. A good chunk of the units did park up between the peaks, at Welwyn or Hornsey. But on the other hand, they spent the night in Cambridge or Peterborough.

 

[Clarence Yard]

If you can’t get 10 out of 12 on a class of mainline EMU, there is something wrong. They shouldn’t need much servicing and repair downtime overnight, even if they are doing 1k a day.

If it was a DMU or bi-mode, the downtime would play in the availability target but I would still be looking at 80% to 85% for a DMU/Bi-Mode. Add 5% to those figures for a straight EMU.

 

[RUK]

I wonder what the Class 397s’ reliability might mean for the new CAF trains which LNER have ordered, which look to be based on the same platform. Have LNER ordered enough extra trains to compensate for this potential issue?

 

[Watershed]

I wonder what the Class 397s’ reliability might mean for the new CAF trains which LNER have ordered, which look to be based on the same platform. Have LNER ordered enough extra trains to compensate for this potential issue?

Based on just about every other train order in recent times, probably not...

 

[route101]

That one went to Liverpool via Earlestown as I recall. Still runs but now terminates at Preston.

Yes I remember it going that way. It was a Class 185. I didn't realise the service has come back but to Preston.

 

[RollingStock19]

802s work north of York everyday and get up to 125 between York and Newcastle. As mentioned 185s are put on the slows and aren’t under wires for long.

God I wish that was true. The 185s are often on the fast York to Thirsk, some even go back out onto the fast after Thirsk too.